EPTHeroes Large General Thread - Page 218
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On November 25 2014 09:53 TMG26 wrote: Maybe if you play a heavy farming core. If you play a nice support like Wraith King, the early minutes are pretty much "who am i gonna kill next" Yeah, but your gameplay is "Right click and press Q" (or T if you're old school). Still not that fun. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On November 25 2014 10:10 Coriolis wrote: illidan is bad and everyone that plays him should feel bad hes pretty much worse than every other assassin you could play all he does well is stick to ppl for days and chase down dudes ur team basically already killed aka would have been dead if another real hero was on the team If Illidan had Nova-level of strenght, I think everyone would whine about how dumb the Hunt is. I am very much against the idea of giving an assasin that already has two catch-up abilities (with low CD) the ability to attack any hero from any distance. In my opinion, abilities should be designed to add counterplay and/or to offset weakness's it already has. Yes, I can understand what Blizzard thought of with its ultimates: (1) Metamorphis makes it stronger in teambattles (2) The hunt strenghtens its role as an assasin. But the latter solution is just not the correct approach in my opinion. If you want to increase its mobility further, it should be done with an approach that add counteropportunities for the enemy. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On November 25 2014 10:10 Coriolis wrote: illidan is bad and everyone that plays him should feel bad hes pretty much worse than every other assassin you could play all he does well is stick to ppl for days and chase down dudes ur team basically already killed aka would have been dead if another real hero was on the team He's actually really strong IF you can build a comp around him. His overall dps output with things like Immolation and no mana/low cd's mean that if he can drag a fight out he will end out doing almost all other damage sources. Combined with the power of lvl 20 metamorphisis he can do silly things like tank a core with 5 people on him. He's not the best Hero but he actually does have a place and can be played very well. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
You're also confusing skillcap and skillfloor. Lower skillfloor for Zeratul because blink is instant (and if you screw up you're not ouf of the fight because wormhole). Zeratul also bursts faster (basically walk in avoiding to eat incidental AoE, WWQ weaving 1-2 autos in, blink out) and is cloaked so he's much "safer" in a sense (although apparently Illidan takes a bunch of tanky talents?). Eh, I think I wrote very specifically that I do not consider the skillfloor of a hero to have a very big influence in my determination of what I consider hard or not. That's not confusing, but rather showing my methodology as everything in Heroes is very easy to learn relative to heroes in LOL or Dota. But for reference, I lost the first 2-3 games with Illidan, and then I went on a 15-game winning streak. Illidan is a noob-killer as he is extremely good at punishing players that are out of position (this was ofc also at a period where I was playing lower MMR, but still - I was very new to the game as well). I don't even consider blink easy to use as early on I burned my nails multiple times overcommiting and dying while off CD. I think it takes 10-15 games to get a decent feeling of when you can blink during engagmeents and when you can not + how to apply the cloak concept to your play. Sure, when you research wormhole, it gets somewhat different as you can blink back. But even wormhole isn't easy to use either. I found I had a bit of trouble for the first 15 games to use efficiently. Then you add in the fact that my mind has trouble remembering when wormhole is activated and when normal blink is activated, and I have made numerous misblink where I blink back instead of forward..... With Illidan, the only real "learning" barrier was when you should use E relative to how you time your engagement + the fact that you should attack with Q to engage and have W ready to escape (but that took perhaps like 5 games to get the hang off). So I very quickly felt like I had "learned" Illidan and in order to master him, I would need to improve my decisionmaking on when I should attack 0.x seconds faster/later. But that type of skillset is just too simplistic for my taste. TLDR: IMO Zerataul has a higher skill floor and a higher skill cap than Illidan. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On November 25 2014 10:12 deth2munkies wrote: Yeah, but your gameplay is "Right click and press Q" (or T if you're old school). Still not that fun. That's as oversimplifying as saying HotS is a simple game because its lane/creep mechanics are extremely basic. Positioning, timing, vision, etc are all both important and complex; the fact that the actual spells you cast to kill an opponent are narrow in the beginning does not make that phase of the game remotely simple. | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
On November 25 2014 10:10 Coriolis wrote: illidan is bad and everyone that plays him should feel bad hes pretty much worse than every other assassin you could play all he does well is stick to ppl for days and chase down dudes ur team basically already killed aka would have been dead if another real hero was on the team yeah, no. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
Here's the Reddit thread about it! | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
EDIT: 5 now, this time i dc and cant get back, cant even get to the actual "replay" reconnect part of their system :/ | ||
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
I'm ~2600 Plat, assasin main, mic, teamspeak LausDeoX#1476 My Hotslogs: https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/Profile?PlayerID=167727 | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On November 25 2014 10:33 FHDH wrote: That's as oversimplifying as saying HotS is a simple game because its lane/creep mechanics are extremely basic. Positioning, timing, vision, etc are all both important and complex; the fact that the actual spells you cast to kill an opponent are narrow in the beginning does not make that phase of the game remotely simple. Yes, there are a lot of factors, but mechanically, that's all you do. In HotS, you can chain abilities at level 1, which is inherently more interesting than waiting behind a tree for 3 minutes soaking XP until someone gets out of position enough for you to walk up and stun. Hell, even LoL is more fun because summoner skills give the opportunity for early game outplay. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10696 Posts
Chaining 3 low impact abilities, with like no drawback if it doesn’t work, is not more exciting than trying to get that one ability to hit which would assure you an important kill and costs you more than half your mana. Thats also the reason why i think laning in Dota is much more exciting than in Lol. In Dota allmost every spell counts (for some heroes more, for some less but you basically never want to "just throw" a spell out in the earlygame). | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
My personal opinion on Illidan is that, in the right hands, he's just incredibly annoying to deal with. I have a mate who plays him almost non-stop, and he plays him really really well. The guy simply does not die in battle, and while his HP sometimes drops really low, he somehow gets it back way up by timing his abilities just right. It's rather crazy to behold. I tried playing Illidan, and I can't do that at all xD. I'm looking forward to Jaina though. Should be a fun hero. What is she anyway? She can't be a support right? Almost all of her abilities are damaging. I pin her as some sort of magic-based ranged assassin. I rarely play assassins, but this time I might make an exception! | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
His trait is possibly the best of all and combined with his manapool he is an awesome jungler. For teamfights he really needs support like uther's heal, tassadar's shield or something to keep him from being focussed too easily. Also early on he is very squishy and his abilities don't help that much with early laning, i think he is best if you team up with someone to do knights or siege early where he can take a fair bit of damage. Then when he get's lvl 10 he becomes surviveable enough in teamfights with metamorphosis, which combo's nicely with first aid. Especially maps which have a lot of small creeping going on like haunted mines and blackheart bay he is great, he does that really quick and he is excellent in the chasing or 1v1 fights. Maps like dragon shire which have prolonged battles for a fixed position he isn't that good i think. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
In order by class I'd rate them like this at the moment. Warriors: S-class Tyrael, the sword is awesome initiation with decent aoe to boot and has lots of tricks, helps escape etc. For the rest an ok aoe ability that helps chasing or running even more and a nice shield ability. Heroic is amazing and trait is decent, especially with the still broken resurgence of the storm. Basically assassin like qualities but surviveability of a decent tank. Arthas, nice sustain and cc with an aura that is really helpful in the teamfight oriented game. His talents especially make him good, envenom on a warrior is awesome for example. Ultimates not the best I think but his ghoul army keeps him alive quite well. Good Anub'arak, excellent cc and an excellent intiate and escape. A bit squishy though with far less hp than other warriors and not as good as a shield. Talents slightly mediocre I think and the ultimate not that amazing but still quite good with rewind shenanigans and his cc. Stitches, hook is nice and can really set up great kills but players that are aware can be very hard to grab using minions/summons to protect. The aoe is mediocre that becomes good with some absurd talents for it (who else has a 50% damage boost to a damage only spell?). Self heal is alright but long cooldown and when you are bursted you sometimes lack a target for it. Nice heroic but trait is one of the weaker ones. Overall in teamfights he is slightly too easy to ignore as he has awful damage and hook doesn't do much if they already commit Chen, bit of an odd duck. 2 skills that must combo and an interesting trait. Forced to be inactive with his trait makes it very hard for him to escape though, either the shield is enough to keep you alive or he can't do anything. Wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to have more potential, perhaps in greedy openings creeping knights right away where he functions as damage soak. Mediocre: Sonya, fantastic ultimate but the ability set is mediocre. Not the best hp for a tank and having to do damage with whirldwind to heal makes her squishy for not having an escape. ETC, skills too low impact despite the trait potentially being nice in a teamfight metagame. Abilities that spread out are difficult to use well in combination with other heroes too. Awful: Muradin, not a bad set of skills in theory. A single target stun, an aoe around himself and a nice escape/initiate plus a decent trait and heroic. However the numbers on his skills are pathetic, he just does way too little damage and like stitches hook the stun can be avoided a bit too easily. Diablo, 3 damage abilities no heal/escape is generally not that great. They also do pathetic damage especially the fire ring. Two of his abilities also displace the enemy hero which makes for very tricking timing with your other heroes. Maybe in a well coordinated team but otherwise i've seen his abilities cause more misses by teammates than any other hero. Ranged Assassins: S-class: Tychus, sturdier than the other assassins and his moving shot ability is just awesome. Especially his ultimate is a lifesaver by giving a second hitbar which is so useful for an assassin since chasing one away from a fight can be nearly as good as killing them. Vulnerable to stuns though with his windup but he can usually play around that a bit. Good: Valla, great damage and mobility but squishy compared to tychus Nova, silly 100 to 0 abilities but against competent play also easily focussed down. Hallucination not hard to ignore and many other top heroes like tassadar, arthas and tyrael can reveal and/or kill her quickly. Pub killer for sure though. Falstad, good damage too and the barrel roll is awesome on maps with lots of walls. Quite map dependent as the fly ability is great for some but not that useful in others, especially as you probably want to take the Bribe talent but can't always use it well on some maps. Raynor bland learning hero but best basic attack dps in the game and helpful boost for teamfights. No escape or mobility can stink but in mostly teamfights games (cursed hollow often) he can excel. The ranged assassins are really close I think and differences are mostly based on maps and enemy compositions I think. Only tychus slightly sticks out now I think but all are fine and good choices depending on circumstances. I guess nova will be changed to be slightly less bursty and maybe more tanky. If tassadar and some others that counter her weren't so popular she might be broken. Melee assassins Good: Illidan Fine hero but very squishy early on and some targets he should be good at ganking can sometimes just kill him. Excellent jungler though but it's a question how much jungling you can even do in high level games, at least not alone often. Zeratul More mobility but way less burst than nova. As melee his stealth also much easier countered, the cloak of flames talent for example does so fairly well. Void prison can be awesome but depends on composition quite a bit too. Mediocre: Kerrigan good damage combo's but almost no surviveability and many heroes can even evade the damage combo with a timely 'E'. Lackluster ultimates too. Support: S-class: Uther: excellent heals, good stun and great ultimate. What more can you ask? Also trait nicely helps to avoid him being the focus target, otherwise he is still useful. Tassadar: psi storm my vote for best basic spell in game and nice shield and escape. Trait not great maybe but still quite useful with the objective based game and popularity of nova especially. Good: Rehgar: nice heal and his mount is awesome with even decent damage. The totem feels very weak though, low (casting)range and easily dies to aoe for only a movement speed debuff. Decent: Brightwing: nice sustain for the team but has trouble actually saving allies against spell damage. Lousy aoe ability too. Awful: Tyrande: mediocre heal, mediocre stun and mediocre long range spell. Shoots up a bit if there are objectives to disturb (cursed hollow and blackheart bay) but still just weak numbers. Ultimate too easy to avoid too. Malfurion: heal over time but still poor numbers. Root too easy to avoid and damage very weak. Trait can't be self used and doesn't even work or do much on some other heroes. Nice ultimate but won't save him. Worst hero: Li li : you may not have to aim but you aren't doing anything either. Specialists: S-class Abathur: Presence all over the map, great ultimate for the teamfights and pushing down a lane at the same time. Even shielding your buildings against their golem/knight/garden terror. Amazing in the right hands. Good: Azmodan: Excellent pushing potential and the hp of tank. Very solid but does require a real team strategy behind it a bit. Zagara: Quite map dependant but no hero is as good in keeping a lane. Very weak to ganks but her creep let's you know of these in advance. Deploys a lot of damage in combat but can keep fairly safe. Maps which require her to move a lot like haunted mines or cursed hollow make her quite a bit weaker though. Decent: Nazeebo: Good damage output but his zombie wall and frogs are a bit easy to avoid for most heroes and his ultimate too easy to interrupt. Shines against compositions lacking lots of escapes/stuns though. Gazlowe: like zagara reliant on keeping certain places but he just wants to set up for teamfights. Also quite dependant on being able to land his bombs/ultimate. Awful: Sergeant hammer: too easy to close the gap with for many heroes and objectives do require moving a bit more. For zoning out or pushing other specialists are better i think. Murky: good players will track the egg too easily if you put it far forward and if you put it back your presence is too little. Just too easily killed. Overall for team competitions i guess uther, tassadar and abathur will be first choices much. They are excellent and hard to impossible to replace with similar heroes. Ranged assassins feel quite similar that you can always get a good one it seems though they depend on map and enemy composition a fair bit. For a melee assassin you want tyrael I think some other warriors are quite close. Other specialists are again really map dependant. The support class feels like it needs the most work to bring closer together. Anyway just how i see it this moment, I'm not much of an expert so curious what others think. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
I don't play her a ton but when I do I prefer this build -- http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/sergeant-hammer#gsH2 It takes some time to come into your own but at level 20 you are an absolute nightmare with your knocking around mine field and your instant respawn overpowered resurgence. | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
On November 25 2014 12:45 deth2munkies wrote: Yes, there are a lot of factors, but mechanically, that's all you do. In HotS, you can chain abilities at level 1, which is inherently more interesting than waiting behind a tree for 3 minutes soaking XP until someone gets out of position enough for you to walk up and stun. Hell, even LoL is more fun because summoner skills give the opportunity for early game outplay. Sure, in HOTS you can chain all three of your skills at level 1, but all those skills are so scaled down and hit like wet noodles it doesn't matter. Abilities in this game feel very insignificant, spam QWE all you want but you can't kill one enemy hero while in DOTA2 in the early game you can destroy an enemy with open wounds for instance which lasts 8 seconds and is a 70% movement speed slow which slows for 70%/70%/60%/50%/30%/10%/10%/10%, decreasing one step per second. Just because there are more stuff for you to spam doesn't make it anymore interesting. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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laharl23
United States582 Posts
On November 25 2014 17:57 Velr wrote: Yeah... Now if the abilities actually would be impactfull and somehow limited by your Manapool. But you can just spam them at lvl 1 several times (you can go oom, but it takes way more than one « rotation »)… +Dieing on lvl 1 basically means that you either ran into a ~3+ player train with heroes that can actually stun/slow you somehow or you just overextended like mad. Chaining 3 low impact abilities, with like no drawback if it doesn’t work, is not more exciting than trying to get that one ability to hit which would assure you an important kill and costs you more than half your mana. Thats also the reason why i think laning in Dota is much more exciting than in Lol. In Dota allmost every spell counts (for some heroes more, for some less but you basically never want to "just throw" a spell out in the earlygame). sooooo....... go play dota then? I don't go on the dota forums telling everyone why dota is worse than heroes of the storm, I just play the one I enjoy most and move on with my life. Like every other dota 2/league player should be doing in this thread, lol. | ||
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
And that reminds me of my decision to just play the heroes i like, not caring about who is strong (since its alpha and everything will change). That... kinda backfired since i don't like the strong ones  Zagara, Kerrigan, Hammer, Tyrande and Chen. I woudn't say tyrande is awful, she is alright as long as you understand that her healing sucks (and hopefully your allies too). | ||
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