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On October 21 2014 04:03 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 02:56 Plansix wrote:
The game is very solid if you only have time for a 20 minute game. Plus the maps spice it up a lot. I really hope they do more with heroes like Diablo and Chen, who both have abilities to move opponents around. Diablos "suplex a tank" ability never gets old. Same with the Chen keg of moving enemies away from the fight. Diablo's strongest ability by far is being able to sit in the middle of a path and stop you moving anywhere with his fat ass. Model-blocking movement is waaaaaaaaaaay more of a thing here than in any other moba that i've played. For a while, half of my deaths were to "hang on a sec, i'm actually stuck here. Fuck."
I was watching sC stream the other day and his body blocking with Valla was next level. I watch a decent amount of competitive heroes and it was by far the best positioning with a Valla I've ever seen. He knew when to get into someone's face to body block and when to vault away.
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On October 21 2014 04:25 Plansix wrote:
I really like Muradin, but he seems underwhelming compared to heroes like Diablo and Chen. But I could be missing somthing, but he doesn't seem to have as good of a kit as those two.
Muradin is somewhat situational but yes he's not as good as many heroes. One of his big strengths though is jumping into the middle of a pack and slowing everyone allowing your carries to get Executioner procs off. If you're in a pub and you have either a Muradin or an Arthas (basically someone with a consistant slow/CC) you simply have to take Executioner. So many people in games I play just don't take that talent and I don't know why its borderline OP.
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All right, that may be my issue, because my pub games are pretty rough and no one I play with is at a "high level". I might just stick with Diablo and pro-wrestle tanks to the ground as Dusty intended.
I am glad body blocking is a thing in the game. Its one of the best parts of dota and gives your hero some real weight.
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On October 21 2014 04:39 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 04:25 Plansix wrote:
I really like Muradin, but he seems underwhelming compared to heroes like Diablo and Chen. But I could be missing somthing, but he doesn't seem to have as good of a kit as those two. Muradin is somewhat situational but yes he's not as good as many heroes. One of his big strengths though is jumping into the middle of a pack and slowing everyone allowing your carries to get Executioner procs off. If you're in a pub and you have either a Muradin or an Arthas (basically someone with a consistant slow/CC) you simply have to take Executioner. So many people in games I play just don't take that talent and I don't know why its borderline OP.
I do typically avoid it* in pubs because I don't trust people to be in the right places and CCing the right targets during fights, but it is very strong, especially in organized play.
*Qualified: on heroes that have a viable alternative in that talent tier.
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God, we can only hope. EG Snowflake would be an amusing team.
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With its current skill cap, a guy like Idra going pro HotS would just be kinda pathetic honestly.
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Expected a jump scare at least. Disappointed in you EG 
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United States22154 Posts
On October 21 2014 09:40 FHDH wrote:
With its current skill cap, a guy like Idra going pro HotS would just be kinda pathetic honestly.
Idra is already playing heroes, and quite happy with it. We interviewed him! here
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On October 21 2014 09:47 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 09:40 FHDH wrote:
With its current skill cap, a guy like Idra going pro HotS would just be kinda pathetic honestly. Idra is already playing heroes, and quite happy with it. We interviewed him! here
That's fine and well but doesn't really change my point. There's nothing that guarantees that the competition in HotS is going to be anything but third tier for the foreseeable future.
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Man, I would pay money for a filter that just removed posts with specific phrased, like "Skill Cap". It would remove a lot of useless, troll posts from my life.
On October 21 2014 09:53 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 09:47 GMarshal wrote:On October 21 2014 09:40 FHDH wrote:
With its current skill cap, a guy like Idra going pro HotS would just be kinda pathetic honestly. Idra is already playing heroes, and quite happy with it. We interviewed him! here That's fine and well but doesn't really change my point. There's nothing that guarantees that the competition in HotS is going to be anything but third tier for the foreseeable future.
Are you Hot-Bid, Mr. Esports himself? No, you are not. So why do we care what your opinion on HotS competition is going to be?
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This is all I got after a quick look through the video.
+ Show Spoiler +
Maybe I missed something, they're pretty clever sometimes, but I don't feel like it's worth the effort when we already know what it means. I wonder if they'll ever top the HuK hype. /slightly off topic
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On October 21 2014 09:55 Plansix wrote:Man, I would pay money for a filter that just removed posts with specific phrased, like "Skill Cap". It would remove a lot of useless, troll posts from my life. Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 09:53 FHDH wrote:On October 21 2014 09:47 GMarshal wrote:On October 21 2014 09:40 FHDH wrote:
With its current skill cap, a guy like Idra going pro HotS would just be kinda pathetic honestly. Idra is already playing heroes, and quite happy with it. We interviewed him! here That's fine and well but doesn't really change my point. There's nothing that guarantees that the competition in HotS is going to be anything but third tier for the foreseeable future. Are you Hot-Bid, Mr. Esports himself? No, you are not. So why do we care what your opinion on HotS competition is going to be?
Because this is a forum, a website MADE for discussion, help, feedback and opinions? Your last sentence makes absolutely no chance.
Tbh, I like the hype this game is getting. It's something different for sure, and seeing the eSports spotlight swing slightly towards Blizzard makes me more happy than when Riot does, so yeah. That said Blizzard HAVE come out and said the game isn't made with an eSport in mind, they very much know that the community make it so, not the developers. It's made to be quick, fairly casual etc. There might be less mechanics in terms of a lower ''skillcap'', but it's more exciting to watch because I don't have the feeling that I've wasted 40 minutes of my time in a 50minute moba game (or watched one). The game is still in alpha and isn't getting much publicity (intentionally) yet. We're going to need to wait for Blizzcon at least before we can even talk more about the game and it's future, to be honest..
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Tbh, I like the hype this game is getting. It's something different for sure, and seeing the eSports spotlight swing slightly towards Blizzard makes me more happy than when Riot does, so yeah. That said Blizzard HAVE come out and said the game isn't made with an eSport in mind, they very much know that the community make it so, not the developers. It's made to be quick, fairly casual etc. There might be less mechanics in terms of a lower ''skillcap'', but it's more exciting to watch because I don't have the feeling that I've wasted 40 minutes of my time in a 50minute moba game (or watched one). The game is still in alpha and isn't getting much publicity (intentionally) yet. We're going to need to wait for Blizzcon at least before we can even talk more about the game and it's future, to be honest..
Esports in my opinion has very little to do with actual "skill-cap" (which btw is an extremely vague term - some say LOL has a low skillcap, but during Worlds finals, the winning team was still like a 90%-95% favourite, which indicates that it is much more skilled than the opposing team), but rather whether its exciting to watch. If there are lots of teambattles which are fun to play and watch at the same time, then I believe it has the foundations for being a succesful esport (assuming it also has a high playerbase).
From my experience, the enjoyment of watching teambattles often comes down to two factors:
(1) Unpredictability (you shouldn't be able to predict who will win before the battle starts)
(2) Counter-based micro (players should be able to react to what the enemy does during the battle. This makes engagements more back-and-forth).
As an example, I don't believe for a second that BW became popular becasue it had 12-unit selection or no MBS, but rather becasue lots of people played custom games of it and becasue it was exciting to watch players micro and multitask.
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On October 21 2014 09:55 Plansix wrote:Man, I would pay money for a filter that just removed posts with specific phrased, like "Skill Cap". It would remove a lot of useless, troll posts from my life. Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 09:53 FHDH wrote:On October 21 2014 09:47 GMarshal wrote:On October 21 2014 09:40 FHDH wrote:
With its current skill cap, a guy like Idra going pro HotS would just be kinda pathetic honestly. Idra is already playing heroes, and quite happy with it. We interviewed him! here That's fine and well but doesn't really change my point. There's nothing that guarantees that the competition in HotS is going to be anything but third tier for the foreseeable future. Are you Hot-Bid, Mr. Esports himself? No, you are not. So why do we care what your opinion on HotS competition is going to be?
lol are you drunk? From passive-aggressive sighing about trolls to "HOW DARE YOU SIR. How dare you express an opinion on an internet forum." After an edit even. Like you walked away from calling me a troll and were like "NO. That will not stand. I shall put this 'gentleman' - and I use the term loosely - in his place."
I hope HotS competition is good but it will struggle to attract top-tier talent and it has not yet shown that it will have a high skill cap. Idra is a highly talented player. I think this is all very straightforward, and not even very controversial.
Esports in my opinion has very little to do with actual "skill-cap" (which btw is an extremely vague term
Agree on both of these points. Esport popularity is not directly correlated to how much skill it requires to play at the top end, and people abuse the term "skill cap" to the point that it can lose purpose. But it is not a meaningless term, just an abused one. Hearthstone has a far lower skill cap than USFIV - that seems non-controversial - but looks to be quite a bit more popular as an esport, or it is at least on that trajectory.
This is not a comment about "will it be popular" - I think it will do OK as it stands - but "will it be popular enough to attract enough moba talent to offer a level of competition that is comparable to the current moba esports standard; furthermore how much of that talent will actually be applicable within the game as compared to a game like LoL or Dota2" (I think LoL requires more skill than Dota fans give it credit for, it is just in different areas). Presently I think the answer to both of these questions is "no," but things can change.
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I understand the forum is used for expressing opinions, but I know FHDH from the Dota forums and I was expressing my general distaste for reductive comments like "with the games current skill cap" that mean nothing. Skill cap is the vaguest term and it only really comes up when one person wants to shit on another game and they want to sound like looking at the game objectively.
And Hider is right, the true measure of an Esport is not how "complex" it is, but how fun it is to watch. As long as the hype is there, people will watch. Look at League, which people love.
On October 21 2014 10:52 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 09:55 Plansix wrote:Man, I would pay money for a filter that just removed posts with specific phrased, like "Skill Cap". It would remove a lot of useless, troll posts from my life. On October 21 2014 09:53 FHDH wrote:On October 21 2014 09:47 GMarshal wrote:On October 21 2014 09:40 FHDH wrote:
With its current skill cap, a guy like Idra going pro HotS would just be kinda pathetic honestly. Idra is already playing heroes, and quite happy with it. We interviewed him! here That's fine and well but doesn't really change my point. There's nothing that guarantees that the competition in HotS is going to be anything but third tier for the foreseeable future. Are you Hot-Bid, Mr. Esports himself? No, you are not. So why do we care what your opinion on HotS competition is going to be? lol are you drunk? From passive-aggressive sighing about trolls to "HOW DARE YOU SIR. How dare you express an opinion on an internet forum." After an edit even. Like you walked away from calling me a troll and were like "NO. That will not stand. I shall put this 'gentleman' - and I use the term loosely - in his place." I hope HotS competition is good but it will struggle to attract top-tier talent and it has not yet shown that it will have a high skill cap. Idra is a highly talented player. I think this is all very straightforward, and not even very controversial.
I wish I was drunk. Its a work night. And you know if you come in and make some dippy comment like " going pro HotS would just be kinda pathetic honestly," Im just going to call a spade and spade and call you a troll. I have never wavered in my distaste for people crapping on other games.
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Nah. It's me calling a spade a spade based on what I see. That's my honest opinion. And while I feel it's not controversial at all to say Hearthstone has a lower skill cap than pretty much any popular esport I have supported the game and esport, played it, watched many hours, mod for about half of Tempo Storm on their Twitch channels. Modded for Chanman for the purpose of modding competitions that take place in his channel. I just don't shy from speaking of things in such terms. I say it's pathetic because he could, right now, be involved with the existing, robust scenes in League or Dota where the talent is but he has chosen this. I stand by that.
I also want to see HotS succeed as a game and an esport but that doesn't change my opinion at all.
Shit just is how it is. If it changes, great.
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Agree on both of these points. Esport popularity is not directly correlated to how much skill it requires to play at the top end, and people abuse the term "skill cap" to the point that it can lose purpose. But it is not a meaningless term, just an abused one. Hearthstone has a far lower skill cap than USFIV - that seems non-controversial - but looks to be quite a bit more popular as an esport, or it is at least on that trajectory.
This is not a comment about "will it be popular" - I think it will do OK as it stands - but "will it be popular enough to attract enough moba talent to offer a level of competition that is comparable to the current moba esports standard; furthermore how much of that talent will actually be applicable within the game as compared to a game like LoL or Dota2" (I think LoL requires more skill than Dota fans give it credit for, it is just in different areas). Presently I think the answer to both of these questions is "no," but things can change.
I think - without having played the game - that the game will have a high enough microbased skillcap (which is the most important thing) if the champion/hero-design is done well. If they have designed and tweaked the stats of the heroes so a world class player is much more effective with the hero than a mediocore player, then I believe it can work. I think LOL too a large extent does this with lots of skillshots, counterbased escape-mechanics and low cooldowns.
From my expeirence with Sc2 though, I feel Blizzard actually did a pretty bad job of tweaking the stats correctly to create micro interactions. After spending my shares of hours in the edtior, I come to the conclusion that there are lots of stats in the game which really doesn't make sense and prevents micro (for instance wouldn't it be better if the Oracle was more of a moving shot unit with lower damage than what it is currently?). Given that big parts of the same team is working on HOTS as well I am naturally slightly worried.
On the other hand, I think there is a different focus in the development of a MOBA-game where everything revolves around micro-interactions, and I don't believe that so many players would speak so positively about the game if the micro-interactions were so bad.
Then there is also the strategical skillcap, which I think probably is higher in teambased games than in Sc2. At least in Sc2, I think you improve your strategical knowledge and mechanics simultaneously through just playing lots of games. While in MOBA's it seems that just soloqueing isn't enough to create a comprehensive strategical understanding. Some have said that the focus on objectives in HOTS reduces strategy as it makes all decisions obvious. I obviously don't know here - having not played the gaem - but I am always interested in hearing opinions here from people with lots of experience in the game.
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On October 21 2014 09:53 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2014 09:47 GMarshal wrote:On October 21 2014 09:40 FHDH wrote:
With its current skill cap, a guy like Idra going pro HotS would just be kinda pathetic honestly. Idra is already playing heroes, and quite happy with it. We interviewed him! here That's fine and well but doesn't really change my point. There's nothing that guarantees that the competition in HotS is going to be anything but third tier for the foreseeable future.
Exact same thing was said about DotA 2 when it first started (weak players jumping in before the DotA 1 teams could show up), and SC2 (Proleague dropouts looking for easy wins).
Skill level grows as the scene and the game grows, and someone has to be the early adopter to start the scene up first.
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