EPTNot too impressed to be honest but I was not impressed by echo either. Intertesting card anyway, we will see if someone manage to do something with it oneday.
New Expansion: Whispers of the Old Gods - Page 59
| Forum Index > Hearthstone General |
|
itchiko
0 Posts
Not too impressed to be honest but I was not impressed by echo either. Intertesting card anyway, we will see if someone manage to do something with it oneday. | ||
|
Wuster
1974 Posts
Of course Tempo Warrior isn't an archetype that exists yet... And Control Warrior isn't likely to have very many minions out but they're mostly high value so maybe quality > quantity there? Either way a very interesting card to keep an eye on. | ||
|
WindWolf
Sweden11767 Posts
| ||
|
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
Card draw, in Hearthstone, has almost nothing to do with card advantage at this stage. The game has reached a point where it's very realistic for players to go through their whole decks, or at the very least for it to be critically important to count which cards the other player has used (e.g. Tirion down? Boom down? Both Challengers down? I win vs Secret Paladin). Card draw is about cycling quickly through your deck to reach a set of cards which you need in order to win. Card draw is needed most by combo decks such as Freeze Mage and Anyfin Pally, while in other classes its main role is finding the appropriate threats/answers to keep the opponent in line. In order to create card advantage, modern decks use efficient removal (e.g. AoE, weapons) and card creation. Now, regarding Blood Warriors. It's obviously no good for Patron Warrior. Patron Warrior is not a lategame deck and has no need for card creation. The goal of Patron Warrior is to draw into its various threatening combos too fast for the opponent to react and then end the game. This means it needs card draw, and thus Battle Rage. However, this doesn't mean it's no good for any Warrior deck. Elise Warrior has shown one path to victory: play tons of lifegain and specific answer cards, then convert the useless answers into threats in the lategame. It might be best to think of Blood Warriors as another conversion card: in this case, Whirlwind effects into minions. It's not limited to that specific use, however, being able to also convert uneven trades into minions. If this kind of Warrior deck ever manages to get a substantial (read: 2+ minions) board against its opponent, it can convert that into having way more resources than its opponent. Midrange decks tend to not have a full hand of cards, and will usually stall out from not having enough threats to keep up pressure against more efficient control decks. A good Blood Warriors turn can grant a full hand and a ton of minions. Plus, it's obviously great with Thaurissan. Who doesn't love more uses for Thaurissan? It may not come to fruition in this expansion, and maybe not even in Standard ever, but I think this card has a lot more potential than people grant it. | ||
|
Nakara
United States0 Posts
On April 06 2016 13:03 Wuster wrote: I was watching Kibler talking about Tempo Mage today and he said the reason you'd rather Echo of Medivh than Arcane Intellect is because it gives you value without bringing you to fatigue. I think that consideration has to be weighed stronger here when comparing Blood Warriors to Battle Rage. Of course Tempo Warrior isn't an archetype that exists yet... And Control Warrior isn't likely to have very many minions out but they're mostly high value so maybe quality > quantity there? Either way a very interesting card to keep an eye on. The thing is you don't see tempo mage playing Echo of Medivh , you see them running Arcane Intellect because its better when your behind and cheaper just like Battle Rage vs Blood Warriors. Also whens the last time you saw a tempo mage go to fatigue, I've played at least 700 games with tempo mage and I can count the number that went to fatigue with my hands. Granted Patron does reach fatigue a fare bit and is the deck this would most likely fit in but since patron relies so much on Patron/ Frothing Berserker I think the draw still ends up better since you really need to be hitting those to execute your strategy. | ||
|
Cricketer12
United States13990 Posts
| ||
|
Wuster
1974 Posts
On April 06 2016 14:05 Nakara wrote: The thing is you don't see tempo mage playing Echo of Medivh , you see them running Arcane Intellect because its better when your behind and cheaper just like Battle Rage vs Blood Warriors. Also whens the last time you saw a tempo mage go to fatigue, I've played at least 700 games with tempo mage and I can count the number that went to fatigue with my hands. Granted Patron does reach fatigue a fare bit and is the deck this would most likely fit in but since patron relies so much on Patron/ Frothing Berserker I think the draw still ends up better since you really need to be hitting those to execute your strategy. Looked up a few deck lists and you're right! I wonder if I misheard or Kibler was thinking/talking about earlier Tempo Mage dexks. Well either way I still think its an interesting card. Since a potential Tempo Warrior deck would be more minion based rather than spell based I think this has a chance to get better value than Echo. But time will tell. | ||
|
stealthrider
24 Posts
Warrior has two decks atm, the board-centric Patron and the board-agnostic Control. This is most definitely a value control card, but the current face of Control Warrior (as it has been since its inception) is all about playing one big minion at a time and using its cheap removal to keep itself alive, looking to set up one creature you can't kill (and later a Grom finisher). That deck has no use for a card that requires heavy board presence, and has more than enough value already to go to fatigue against typical decks and win. Patron relies on having an overwhelming board presence, but doesn't care much about value and certainly does not want to risk a fatigue game. Not to mention, Patron decks tend to draw lots of cards and have large hands for the majority of the game, so the pseudo-draw is mostly wasted on them. If they do need to refill their hand, though, it's usually not because they're *winning* on the board. Quite the opposite, it usually means they're fishing for something. That means they don't want what they have on the board already, they want something else--probably removal. So Patron doesn't really want this card, either. The only deck I can see using this is Dragon warrior. Dragon decks typically do want a board presence, but are also geared toward a control game. They want Dragons in their hand as well as on the board, and those Dragons usually have high health and stick around for multiple turns. Dragon decks usually can't fit in all that much card draw and certainly are at a disadvantage against slower decks later on. This card may be what Dragon warrior needs to match the potency of typical Control Warrior. | ||
|
Noidberg
United States17 Posts
Also tempo mage runs arcane over echo to dig for burn spells for RNGwaker . Really guys how can you forget the cancer. Ive seen some gorilla bot echo decks or value decks but never in tempo. | ||
|
Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
Warning! Heavy theorycrafting below: 1) Realistic use: You can use Blood warriors (with a potential activator if you intend to dupe something you just played) to copy a heavy deathrattle minion like Sylvanas or Cairne. It will cost you a "Blood Warriors" and potentially an activator, so you'd break even or net lose 1 card, however things like Sylvanas and Cairne are capable of getting more than 1 card's worth of value out of them. The real reason to do this would be to get a second Sylvanas, Cairne, etc. for the purposes of a stronger N'Zoth turn. If you can ever get 2+ quality deathrattle minions duplicated you are in good shape. 2) Situational use: The N'Zoth turn itself, with proper setup, can produce a handful of minions, up to a full board. Against a class that can brawl, you can dupe the deathrattles. Not too good. But few classes have such a hard board wipe and against other classes some of the minions might survive. They can get duped. N'Zoth itself post-battlecry is a pretty resilient minion, not really worth a poly or a hex, immune to BGH, survives a large amount of single target spells, etc. If it ever survives and you have blood warriors, just play it and get a second N'Zoth. Surviving the first N'Zoth will be difficult, but a second N'Zoth, and this time with a nearly guaranteed 6 Deathrattle minions…? 3) Dream use: Probably only viable against a very slow class like control warrior/priest, as you need to be at endgame, probably cycled through most if not all of your deck to get a specific hand. It would go something like this: Emperor, activator, Blood Warriors -> Discount N'Zoth, activator#2(whirlwind or revenge), Blood Warriors#2. Emperor #2 -> Discount the above again. N'Zoth(8) Whirlwind effect(0) Blood Warriors(1) -> Netting you a semi-full to completely full board, a second N'Zoth and likely a hand refilled with deathrattle minions. Basically an entire deck's worth of sticky minions over 3 turns. I don’t think even an opponent with a hand of pure removal (including 2x brawl) would be able to clear everything. | ||
|
Enjun
0 Posts
On April 06 2016 19:09 Sajaki wrote: Blood warriors is an interesting card because it doesn't fit too well in current decks (stealthrider summed this up well), but it really has the potential to push a new warrior archetype, one that I am personally excited for: N'Zoth Warrior. Of course, such a deck is purely speculative at the moment, especially without the release of all TOG cards. But, I've theorycrafted a few hypothetical scenarios where Blood Warriors could support such a N'Zoth archetype. One is realistic, the other very situational and the last the very unlikely but the "dream combo". Warning! Heavy theorycrafting below: 1) Realistic use: You can use Blood warriors (with a potential activator if you intend to dupe something you just played) to copy a heavy deathrattle minion like Sylvanas or Cairne. It will cost you a "Blood Warriors" and potentially an activator, so you'd break even or net lose 1 card, however things like Sylvanas and Cairne are capable of getting more than 1 card's worth of value out of them. The real reason to do this would be to get a second Sylvanas, Cairne, etc. for the purposes of a stronger N'Zoth turn. If you can ever get 2+ quality deathrattle minions duplicated you are in good shape. 2) Situational use: The N'Zoth turn itself, with proper setup, can produce a handful of minions, up to a full board. Against a class that can brawl, you can dupe the deathrattles. Not too good. But few classes have such a hard board wipe and against other classes some of the minions might survive. They can get duped. N'Zoth itself post-battlecry is a pretty resilient minion, not really worth a poly or a hex, immune to BGH, survives a large amount of single target spells, etc. If it ever survives and you have blood warriors, just play it and get a second N'Zoth. Surviving the first N'Zoth will be difficult, but a second N'Zoth, and this time with a nearly guaranteed 6 Deathrattle minions…? 3) Dream use: Probably only viable against a very slow class like control warrior/priest, as you need to be at endgame, probably cycled through most if not all of your deck to get a specific hand. It would go something like this: Emperor, activator, Blood Warriors -> Discount N'Zoth, activator#2(whirlwind or revenge), Blood Warriors#2. Emperor #2 -> Discount the above again. N'Zoth(8) Whirlwind effect(0) Blood Warriors(1) -> Netting you a semi-full to completely full board, a second N'Zoth and likely a hand refilled with deathrattle minions. Basically an entire deck's worth of sticky minions over 3 turns. I don’t think even an opponent with a hand of pure removal (including 2x brawl) would be able to clear everything. This like most other uses of N'Zoth hinges desperately on the existence of a good taunt or similarly defensive card that has Deathrattle. In standard there will only be Infested Tauren, Abomination, Tirion (not for Warrior though) and Chillmaw. Without a relevant taunt you'll probably have a hard time arriving at the late turns in the first place as well as surviving the N'Zoth turn against face or boardcentric decks. I still miss some much needed defensive options in the set. Cult Apothecary isn't all that impressive, Shadow Word Horror and Doom are the only new boardclears, Infested Tauren, Faceless Shambler and Hogger are the only Sources of Taunt. Maybe nerfs to Knife Juggler, Leper Gnome and the combo as well as the exit of Muster, Shielded Minibot, Avenge, Haunted Creeper, Nerubian Egg, Piloted Shredder and mechs in general and Mad Scientist will be enough to slow down standard. We'll see. | ||
|
ejozl
Denmark3463 Posts
| ||
|
Penev
28512 Posts
| ||
|
Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
On April 06 2016 23:07 Penev wrote: I'm a little worried about Richard Knight's corrupted Animal Companion card.. 9 mana Summon Huffer, Leokk and Misha Flavour text: Always huffer | ||
|
Penev
28512 Posts
On April 06 2016 23:14 Drazerk wrote: 9 mana Summon Huffer, Leokk and Misha Flavour text: Always huffer Heh, well at least it's not random | ||
|
Pandahunterz
Netherlands213 Posts
first impression: fun timmy or even johnny card (like the mrgl paladins taught us: whats better than 1x n'zoth? 2 x n'zoth of course) Card that looks most alike would be the echo of medivh. although the cards seem to have the same mechanic- copying your board to hand- it seems to have a rather different use. Echo of medivh has 1 huge consistent play: getting even more 0 costs 8/8. the goal of the freeze mage in this situation is to drop his hp below 10 and get to play as many 8/8 for free as possible. echo helps you to get up to 6 extra. ice block is what makes this strat so reliable. admittedly echo has some other uses, but in those situations is less reliable and usually also less value. So what does this new new card actually give us? it gives us card creation. to be more specific it allows us to choose when/which minions we want to copy. First thing that comes to mind is the grim patron. due to the nature of the card and the mechanic of the board swarming most of them will be damaged, allowing you to fill your hand up with lots of them, giving you multiple extra cards. great value, no? well in this case the answer is actually NO. more important than the patrons in a patron deck are actually the activation cards like whirlwind and inner rage. the new card does NOT copy these. what you actually are looking for is card cycle, you want to run through your deck as fast as possible to get more of these combo cards. card draw like battle rage is far superior for this purpose. So how can we get value out of this new card? easiest way is to play a relatively slow board control deck. lets say you have some shield maidens or twilight drakes on the board (3-7 cost minions) you trade with your opponents board (with or without commanding shout) leaving your minions damaged on board. before ending your turn you can use the blood card to refill your hand and play these minions next turns again without running into fatigue. another deck this card might be useful in could be the enrage warrior. minions like the raging worgen or frothing berserker are pretty key for this strategy and getting them removed by the opponent might destroy your entire game. the new card allows you to have more of these minions for your opponent to deal with, at the cost of each combo being less powerful: not ideal, but might be nice to play around with. The major drawback of this card is the requirement of your minions to be damaged, making it harder to reliable copy the minion you want. the dream value of course is to copy your huge end game minions. first grom didnt do the job? simply try again.problem is most of these cards dont leave you with enough mana to get them damaged and play the blood card. therefore you rely on keeping your minion alive for 1 turn, which can be quite the challenge. with lots of big minion chances are few of them will survive giving you even more powerful minions to play. (question is will you be able to survive that long?) one way to make the copy more reliable is making a combo with for example emperor: n'zoth for 9 mana and blood for 2. add a coin and you can play 2 turns n'zoth in a row. thats one hell of a win more situation. considering all of this, it seems the card has some good potential, actually getting the potential into play seems a difficult task. can always be used as a win more card for timmy/johnny decks. | ||
|
Hellonslaught
Brazil0 Posts
On April 06 2016 23:14 Drazerk wrote: 9 mana Summon Huffer, Leokk and Misha Flavour text: Always huffer i am pretty sure against me it will spaw 3 Huffers somehow | ||
|
Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
On April 06 2016 23:32 Hellonslaught wrote: i am pretty sure against me it will spaw 3 Huffers somehow 9 mana deal 12 damage isn't thaaaaaaaaaaat bad. Also this thread is now larger than the TGT thread and we're only 1/3 of the way through the expansion. Also I just remembered how god awful it was to discuss the big dump. Dear god I'm not looking forward to it | ||
|
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On April 06 2016 20:27 Enjun wrote: This like most other uses of N'Zoth hinges desperately on the existence of a good taunt or similarly defensive card that has Deathrattle. In standard there will only be Infested Tauren, Abomination, Tirion (not for Warrior though) and Chillmaw. Without a relevant taunt you'll probably have a hard time arriving at the late turns in the first place as well as surviving the N'Zoth turn against face or boardcentric decks. I still miss some much needed defensive options in the set. Cult Apothecary isn't all that impressive, Shadow Word Horror and Doom are the only new boardclears, Infested Tauren, Faceless Shambler and Hogger are the only Sources of Taunt. Maybe nerfs to Knife Juggler, Leper Gnome and the combo as well as the exit of Muster, Shielded Minibot, Avenge, Haunted Creeper, Nerubian Egg, Piloted Shredder and mechs in general and Mad Scientist will be enough to slow down standard. We'll see. Two things: 1. There are a good amount of deathrattle cards that are reasonably defensive just by nature of getting good value. Use Harvest Golem to clear Leper Gnome, Dark Peddler, and Flame Imp, and you've gotten a lot of room to spend mana on other things. Not all deathrattles work this way, but a lot do. 2. A ton of aggro's resources are leaving. Piloted Shredder is leaving, as are Snowchugger, Shielded Minibot, Mad Scientist, and Loatheb. This is going to make it way easier to defend against aggro, even without some of the really powerful tools of the past. | ||
|
Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On April 06 2016 21:35 ejozl wrote: C'mon this is a mage spell with a damaged minion slammed onto it. Next we'll see Gang-up for damaged minions? you cannot justify that it's Warrior themed just by slamming this keyword on it. You really need to broaden your perspective, because you are getting bummed out by the slightest things. It's a cool Warrior twist on an already existing concept. Nothing more, nothing less. And if you want a thematical argument, orcs literally refer to themselves as the Horde, so having cards that reinforce the idea of a Warrior class having a bunch of bloody warriors always ready to go is hardly a forced idea. If anything, Warrior lacked cards that did stuff based on how many damaged minions you have, despite it was a theme which was even there in the last expansion with that warrior card that damaged all your minions. | ||
| ||
