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On November 08 2014 01:17 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2014 11:54 Fi0na wrote:On November 07 2014 10:49 Orcasgt24 wrote:On November 07 2014 10:02 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Opponent at 4 with a leper gnome, I'm at 2. I swipe him. What happens? Good question. Should be a tie. All effects must resolve before a game state check in all other TCGs I have played - if you attack the enemy with a minion that will kill him and has more than 2 hp and he has an Explosive Trap up and your hero has 1 or 2 hp you will die before your minion ever attacks him and you will lose the game - if you attack a Zombie Chow with your face and the attack puts you below 1hp but the Zombie Chow heals you back up to positive hp, you still lose Thus I believe it is safe to say that there is a check after every card effect for victory. The only way for a draw to happen is when the effect of a single card kills both players (Abomination, Baron Geddon, Hellfire, or the Spells Holy Fire, Holy Nova and Drain Life with an Auchenai Soulpriest out. Probably Sacrificial Pact too when playing it with an Auchenai Soulpriest against an enemy Jaraxxus) Therefore you should be victorious if you Swipe the face to kill them and they got a Leper Gnome out, as you won after the Swipe resolved before the Deathrattle triggered. I'm not sure that's how it works. I had a game not too long ago against a hunter with a secret. I only had 1 minion on the board so I was afraid it was freezing trap. Instead, I used my truesilver champion and attacked his face. The secret turned out to be an explosive trap and I died... (-1hp) except that then I got healed (back to 1hp), attacked his face with my minion and won.
Truesilver's a known exception to Explosive Trap ending the game against a 2hp hero before all attacks resolve btw.
Either because the heal is showing out of order (Truesilver usually heals first) or it's just a special case is unknown though.
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On November 08 2014 05:19 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 01:17 danl9rm wrote:On November 07 2014 11:54 Fi0na wrote:On November 07 2014 10:49 Orcasgt24 wrote:On November 07 2014 10:02 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Opponent at 4 with a leper gnome, I'm at 2. I swipe him. What happens? Good question. Should be a tie. All effects must resolve before a game state check in all other TCGs I have played - if you attack the enemy with a minion that will kill him and has more than 2 hp and he has an Explosive Trap up and your hero has 1 or 2 hp you will die before your minion ever attacks him and you will lose the game - if you attack a Zombie Chow with your face and the attack puts you below 1hp but the Zombie Chow heals you back up to positive hp, you still lose Thus I believe it is safe to say that there is a check after every card effect for victory. The only way for a draw to happen is when the effect of a single card kills both players (Abomination, Baron Geddon, Hellfire, or the Spells Holy Fire, Holy Nova and Drain Life with an Auchenai Soulpriest out. Probably Sacrificial Pact too when playing it with an Auchenai Soulpriest against an enemy Jaraxxus) Therefore you should be victorious if you Swipe the face to kill them and they got a Leper Gnome out, as you won after the Swipe resolved before the Deathrattle triggered. I'm not sure that's how it works. I had a game not too long ago against a hunter with a secret. I only had 1 minion on the board so I was afraid it was freezing trap. Instead, I used my truesilver champion and attacked his face. The secret turned out to be an explosive trap and I died... (-1hp) except that then I got healed (back to 1hp), attacked his face with my minion and won. Truesilver's a known exception to Explosive Trap ending the game against a 2hp hero before all attacks resolve btw. Either because the heal is showing out of order (Truesilver usually heals first) or it's just a special case is unknown though.
Truesilver/Explosive Trap is not an exception. Both items trigger at the same time. This is resolved by the game by playing all animations and checking for things like minion death/player defeat after everything has been resolved.
The heal would nullify the exposive damage by counteracting it, but the game can't display that as everything is worked through sequentially.
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To be fair, we assume it's simultaneous because the game doesn't end when you hit -2 hp, like it does with other effects (blanking at the moment, but they're in the thread).
The animation is still sequential, although now I wonder does it change depending on when trap / sword were played?
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On November 08 2014 01:56 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 01:17 danl9rm wrote:On November 07 2014 11:54 Fi0na wrote:On November 07 2014 10:49 Orcasgt24 wrote:On November 07 2014 10:02 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Opponent at 4 with a leper gnome, I'm at 2. I swipe him. What happens? Good question. Should be a tie. All effects must resolve before a game state check in all other TCGs I have played - if you attack the enemy with a minion that will kill him and has more than 2 hp and he has an Explosive Trap up and your hero has 1 or 2 hp you will die before your minion ever attacks him and you will lose the game - if you attack a Zombie Chow with your face and the attack puts you below 1hp but the Zombie Chow heals you back up to positive hp, you still lose Thus I believe it is safe to say that there is a check after every card effect for victory. The only way for a draw to happen is when the effect of a single card kills both players (Abomination, Baron Geddon, Hellfire, or the Spells Holy Fire, Holy Nova and Drain Life with an Auchenai Soulpriest out. Probably Sacrificial Pact too when playing it with an Auchenai Soulpriest against an enemy Jaraxxus) Therefore you should be victorious if you Swipe the face to kill them and they got a Leper Gnome out, as you won after the Swipe resolved before the Deathrattle triggered. I'm not sure that's how it works. I had a game not too long ago against a hunter with a secret. I only had 1 minion on the board so I was afraid it was freezing trap. Instead, I used my truesilver champion and attacked his face. The secret turned out to be an explosive trap and I died... (-1hp) except that then I got healed (back to 1hp), attacked his face with my minion and won. You didn't die because of the Truesilver's healing ability. Its effect and the trap's effect happen simultaneously. Any other weapon, and you wold have died before the attack connects.
Truesilver heals first, it's pretty gay most of the time. This or hitting a minion when you are super low HP is the only time it's not usually a pain. (usually using it when you are 29-30 hp).
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killed a kelthuzad with a ragnaros. it resurrected itself. wtf. is that intentional?
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On November 17 2014 07:55 dAPhREAk wrote:
killed a kelthuzad with a ragnaros. it resurrected itself. wtf. is that intentional?
Been a known bug for a while now.
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I want info on The Coin.
Whenever I'm playing, I'm VASTLY more comfortable playing 2nd. You're given more cards to draw from, given the chance to react to whatever he plays, and feel less like you're relying on your draw to be great because of the opportunities provided by The Coin and an extra card.
So do the advantages of playing first actually balance against an extra card / the coin? More directly, are there stats somewhere that show the winrate of X class playing first or second? I'm interested, and it doesn't feel even.
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You could use a program like hearthstonetracker to track your games and see what win rates you have based on who plays first yourself. But overall, there is no noticeable advantage over having the coin.
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On November 18 2014 03:14 Fleetfeet wrote:
I want info on The Coin.
Whenever I'm playing, I'm VASTLY more comfortable playing 2nd. You're given more cards to draw from, given the chance to react to whatever he plays, and feel less like you're relying on your draw to be great because of the opportunities provided by The Coin and an extra card.
So do the advantages of playing first actually balance against an extra card / the coin? More directly, are there stats somewhere that show the winrate of X class playing first or second? I'm interested, and it doesn't feel even.
From what i heard, The Coin was implemented in order to even out the win chances of both players. During early testing (without The Coin), starting players had significantly higher win rates. But even after implementing The Coin (and the extra card), starting players still had (and have) higher win rates. Something roughly above 52% if i recall correctly. I sadly can not remember where i read this. If someone can help out here, i would much appreciate it.
I know what you mean, though, playing second often feels better, even if it is not. You dash out a card one turn earlier, getting even or ahead on board seems strong. You have to consider though, that the other player is practically one mana ahead until turn 11. Depending on the deck(s), this can result in a slightly easier control over the general tempo of the match.
From my personal experience i know that (at least in arena) my win rate is significantly higher when playing first, compared to second.
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Well, when playing with an Agro deck vs a Control deck, you rather have the coin as to dish out as much dmg as you can with your low cost minions.
When playing mirror matches, some classes will prefer having the coin (Rogue beeing Miracle or Warlock as a Hanlock), others will rather go first (control priest) Hunter (deathrattle: it could be argued but for that you need to Undertaker into another 1mana drop out of the possible 4 you could have: so you are really asking for A LOT of rng on your favor).
In Area, I tend to prefer having the Coin everytime: the extra card for mulligan is huge when you take in consideration that you most likely will have lots of x1 cards all over your deck.
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On November 18 2014 03:36 shur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 03:14 Fleetfeet wrote:
I want info on The Coin.
Whenever I'm playing, I'm VASTLY more comfortable playing 2nd. You're given more cards to draw from, given the chance to react to whatever he plays, and feel less like you're relying on your draw to be great because of the opportunities provided by The Coin and an extra card.
So do the advantages of playing first actually balance against an extra card / the coin? More directly, are there stats somewhere that show the winrate of X class playing first or second? I'm interested, and it doesn't feel even. From what i heard, The Coin was implemented in order to even out the win chances of both players. During early testing (without The Coin), starting players had significantly higher win rates. But even after implementing The Coin (and the extra card), starting players still had (and have) higher win rates. Something roughly above 52% if i recall correctly. I sadly can not remember where i read this. If someone can help out here, i would much appreciate it. I know what you mean, though, playing second often feels better, even if it is not. You dash out a card one turn earlier, getting even or ahead on board seems strong. You have to consider though, that the other player is practically one mana ahead until turn 11. Depending on the deck(s), this can result in a slightly easier control over the general tempo of the match. From my personal experience i know that (at least in arena) my win rate is significantly higher when playing first, compared to second.
I remember reading somewhere that while the starting player has a 52% winrate in general, the breakdown isn't nearly so even when individual classes are considered. Some classes have a much higher winrate when going first, while others have a much higher winrate going second. I think that Miracle Rogue was one of the latter, for example.
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IIRC, that was during a presentation at Blizzcon 2013 and the individual breakdowns were given around the time they nerfed Rogue pretty hard (Scrub used to be a 2/3 + 2/2 for instance...). So I don't know how relevant the statistics are anymore.*
While the coin does feel good to have (as well as an extra mulligan). The more I play the more I feel behind as the 2nd player unless I get a good start. Even the extra card for Player 2 matters less the more I play since Player 1 draws first, but I could be committing a logical fallacy there.
* I would hope that they wouldn't make any changes to make the stats worse, but that's not a given with Naxx and all.
Edit: Here's some pictures from Blizzcon with the win %'s: http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/199-blizzcon-2013-recap-open-beta-iphone-android
And here's a bluepost on the Coin before Rogues were nerfed:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/138-the-coin-an-inside-look-blue-tweets
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On November 18 2014 04:35 DrDoom77 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2014 03:36 shur wrote:On November 18 2014 03:14 Fleetfeet wrote:
I want info on The Coin.
Whenever I'm playing, I'm VASTLY more comfortable playing 2nd. You're given more cards to draw from, given the chance to react to whatever he plays, and feel less like you're relying on your draw to be great because of the opportunities provided by The Coin and an extra card.
So do the advantages of playing first actually balance against an extra card / the coin? More directly, are there stats somewhere that show the winrate of X class playing first or second? I'm interested, and it doesn't feel even. From what i heard, The Coin was implemented in order to even out the win chances of both players. During early testing (without The Coin), starting players had significantly higher win rates. But even after implementing The Coin (and the extra card), starting players still had (and have) higher win rates. Something roughly above 52% if i recall correctly. I sadly can not remember where i read this. If someone can help out here, i would much appreciate it. I know what you mean, though, playing second often feels better, even if it is not. You dash out a card one turn earlier, getting even or ahead on board seems strong. You have to consider though, that the other player is practically one mana ahead until turn 11. Depending on the deck(s), this can result in a slightly easier control over the general tempo of the match. From my personal experience i know that (at least in arena) my win rate is significantly higher when playing first, compared to second. I remember reading somewhere that while the starting player has a 52% winrate in general, the breakdown isn't nearly so even when individual classes are considered. Some classes have a much higher winrate when going first, while others have a much higher winrate going second. I think that Miracle Rogue was one of the latter, for example.
Yeah, what you're saying is kind of how I feel. When you consider the coin's value for a turn one undertaker + leper (or other 1 + 1 combo) or its value with miracle/handlock/mage where the card has specific synergy as an extra card, an extra mana, and a spell, The Coin feels like it would be enough of a swing on its own to make up the difference. In some games it provides a super-efficient burst of momentum that swings the game, like coining out a Pint-Sized Summoner against a class unlikely to have immediate removal, or getting to play it later in the game for a Gadgetzan Auctioneer / Violet Teacher / Mountain Giant etc.
Glad to hear that it's probably -behind-, though. It's rare to see in games where a disadvantaged start actually feels better than an advantaged one. Then again, I typically play to have as many good choices as possible, so myself preferring the start that gives you more choices makes a buncha sense.
Thanks for the responses, guys!
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Im running a hunter deck without flare. very aggro usually game by 7 or 8. Is it still better to run the jungle panther over the shade of naxxramus? The deck tends to run out of steam 10 + but i figured most hunters did.
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How do the treants created by Force of Nature and Kel'thuzad interact. Do they die and then KT revives them or do they die and nothing happens?
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If you play Force of Nature First followed by Kel'Thuzad then the Trees do in fact come back at the end of turn since their deathrattle is triggered first. They also survive into the opponents turn where they will stay until he passes the turn back at which point they all die because their "at the end of turn" deathrattle now triggers after that of Kel'thuzad's since they have re-entered play after him, and thus you resolve his ability first.
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What's a good resource and/or starting point for someone completely new to Hearthstone and CCGs? I'm a decent winning poker player so I consider myself good at card games, although I'm not sure how much crossover there is between poker and CCGs.
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On November 27 2014 07:57 relyt wrote:
What's a good resource and/or starting point for someone completely new to Hearthstone and CCGs? I'm a decent winning poker player so I consider myself good at card games, although I'm not sure how much crossover there is between poker and CCGs.
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/general-strategy/470695-the-complete-guide-for-hearthstone-player
is pretty good as well if you're not scared to read a few pages
Q: If you play Nat Pagle and Doomsayer, will they trigger in the order you played them? (would have tested this myself, but I'm never sure if Nat Pagle is actually just bad at fishing or the order of effect activation is iffy)
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On November 27 2014 07:57 relyt wrote:
What's a good resource and/or starting point for someone completely new to Hearthstone and CCGs? I'm a decent winning poker player so I consider myself good at card games, although I'm not sure how much crossover there is between poker and CCGs.
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/hearthstone/456785-a-beginners-guide-to-hs-terms is also useful to get a quick overview.
On November 27 2014 08:52 Fi0na wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 07:57 relyt wrote:
What's a good resource and/or starting point for someone completely new to Hearthstone and CCGs? I'm a decent winning poker player so I consider myself good at card games, although I'm not sure how much crossover there is between poker and CCGs. http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/general-strategy/470695-the-complete-guide-for-hearthstone-playeris pretty good as well if you're not scared to read a few pages Q: If you play Nat Pagle and Doomsayer, will they trigger in the order you played them? (would have tested this myself, but I'm never sure if Nat Pagle is actually just bad at fishing or the order of effect activation is iffy)
should be. the "end of turn" order works properly. (which is annoying if you play Ragnaros then Geddon)
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EPT
