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On March 12 2010 06:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:New CBO Report released: Show nested quote +
WASHINGTON (AFP) – In a boost to President Barack Obama's flagship reform drive, the Congressional Budget Office said Thursday a Senate health care bill would cut the deficit by 118 billion dollars.
The release of the report thickened the intrigue in a tense period of vote hunting for Obama's Democratic allies in the House of Representatives, with the White House pushing for a crucial vote on the measure within a week.
The non-partisan CBO said in its updated assessment that the Senate bill would cost 875 billion dollars over 10 years and reduce projected budget deficits by 118 billion dollars.
Source
lol CBO. Has never gotten one prediction even remotely close to right, and people still cite them as credible! LOL. Routinely under assessing costs by 400%, since inception. We are CBO!
Something tells me those at the top of Collegiate Business & Economics aren't exactly cramming to work for the CBO. Generally those at the very bottom work for the Government. That's bypassing the fact, that you can't predict these things anyways with any measure of reliability. I bet the CBO has a super computer that can compute every persons marginal utilities and preferences, and do some awesome awesome jank computation and magically know even in the most remotest of assessments costs 5, 10, 20 years from now. So funny.
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can we let this thread die already
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Whatever happens tomorrow people are going to go ape shit, some already are:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35965961/ns/politics-capitol_hill/
WASHINGTON - House Democrats heard it all Saturday — words of inspiration from President Barack Obama and raucous chants of protests from demonstrators. And at times it was flat-out ugly, including some racial epithets aimed at black members of Congress.
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On March 21 2010 13:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Whatever happens tomorrow people are going to go ape shit, some already are: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35965961/ns/politics-capitol_hill/Show nested quote +
WASHINGTON - House Democrats heard it all Saturday — words of inspiration from President Barack Obama and raucous chants of protests from demonstrators. And at times it was flat-out ugly, including some racial epithets aimed at black members of Congress.
That usually happens when you try and control a persons life.
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On March 21 2010 13:55 Rothbardian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 13:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Whatever happens tomorrow people are going to go ape shit, some already are: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35965961/ns/politics-capitol_hill/
WASHINGTON - House Democrats heard it all Saturday — words of inspiration from President Barack Obama and raucous chants of protests from demonstrators. And at times it was flat-out ugly, including some racial epithets aimed at black members of Congress.
That usually happens when you try and control a persons life.
That usually happens when you try and tackle a very rich and very interested lobby group.
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On March 21 2010 13:57 L wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 13:55 Rothbardian wrote:On March 21 2010 13:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Whatever happens tomorrow people are going to go ape shit, some already are: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35965961/ns/politics-capitol_hill/
WASHINGTON - House Democrats heard it all Saturday — words of inspiration from President Barack Obama and raucous chants of protests from demonstrators. And at times it was flat-out ugly, including some racial epithets aimed at black members of Congress.
That usually happens when you try and control a persons life. That usually happens when you try and tackle a very rich and very interested lobby group.
The Medical Insurance lobbies, lobbied for this. They are being granted a monopoly, just like the AMA. What company in their right mind would lobby against being granted a monopoly?
Yeah, the sole libertarian in DC Ron Paul has a great lobby influence, that wants to control others lives...
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American taxpayers are fucking retards. They pay subsidies for farmers to live at subsistence level incomes because they can't get a fair rate for products at market. They pay for unjustifiable wars because everyone LOVES THEIR COUNTRY and SUPPORTS THE TROOPS and AMERICA IS THE BEST. They pay to bail out the banks who have been in charge of our government entire since Reagan shat all over our collective faces.
But will they pay taxes to get affordable health care? Nah that's socialist.
Not that this bill is anything other than a gift to the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies. The best part is that the insurance companies are acting like they'd be taking a hit under this bill and have to raise rates... when they obviously will not.
Nothing short of universal health care under a single payer system will satisfy me. It's a travesty that the wealthiest nation in the world subjects illness to the profit motive.
Fuck America. Our government is a wholly owned subsidiary of the pharmaceutical, financial and defense industries. Get out while you can, I say. The 99% of the population that have a whopping 5% of the wealth are convinced they need to protect the interests of the 1% because it's somehow good for them while they're being raped. If your idea of freedom is living in a plutonomy as a fucking peasant, then have at it retards.
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United States22883 Posts
I'm starting to think the vocal protesters, especially tea party members, are people who use politics as an emotional escape for their every day lives. They don't know anything about politics or rule of law or economics, but something in their life is astray and they take it out in protest rather than confronting that issue, maybe because they can't. In some sense, that's ok because historically it's been a non-violent outlet.
It's like a kick the dog sort of thing. Maybe I'd change my mind for the <1% that are half way educated on the things they're saying, but I really don't believe that to be the case for most. It's certainly not ideology and it's not a calculated decision, it's just an emotional response.
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On March 21 2010 13:59 Louder wrote:
American taxpayers are fucking retards. They pay subsidies for farmers to live at subsistence level incomes because they can't get a fair rate for products at market. They pay for unjustifiable wars because everyone LOVES THEIR COUNTRY and SUPPORTS THE TROOPS and AMERICA IS THE BEST. They pay to bail out the banks who have been in charge of our government entire since Reagan shat all over our collective faces.
But will they pay taxes to get affordable health care? Nah that's socialist.
Not that this bill is anything other than a gift to the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies. The best part is that the insurance companies are acting like they'd be taking a hit under this bill and have to raise rates... when they obviously will not.
Nothing short of universal health care under a single payer system will satisfy me. It's a travesty that the wealthiest nation in the world subjects illness to the profit motive.
Fuck America. Our government is a wholly owned subsidiary of the pharmaceutical, financial and defense industries. Get out while you can, I say. The 99% of the population that have a whopping 5% of the wealth are convinced they need to protect the interests of the 1% because it's somehow good for them while they're being raped. If your idea of freedom is living in a plutonomy as a fucking peasant, then have at it retards.
Really agree with this. Particularly the last paragraph.
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On March 21 2010 13:58 Rothbardian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 13:57 L wrote:On March 21 2010 13:55 Rothbardian wrote:On March 21 2010 13:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Whatever happens tomorrow people are going to go ape shit, some already are: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35965961/ns/politics-capitol_hill/
WASHINGTON - House Democrats heard it all Saturday — words of inspiration from President Barack Obama and raucous chants of protests from demonstrators. And at times it was flat-out ugly, including some racial epithets aimed at black members of Congress.
That usually happens when you try and control a persons life. That usually happens when you try and tackle a very rich and very interested lobby group. The Medical Insurance lobbies, lobbied for this. They are being granted a monopoly, just like the AMA. What company in their right mind would lobby against being granted a monopoly? Yeah, the sole libertarian in DC Ron Paul has a great lobby influence, that wants to control others lives...
The fact that the public option isn't politically viable in the US as contrasted with the rest of the western world goes to show you how corrosive the hyper-autonomist philosophy actually is.
Then again, at this stage conversation about the topic is irrelevant. The damage is already done.
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United States22883 Posts
On March 21 2010 13:59 Louder wrote:
American taxpayers are fucking retards. They pay subsidies for farmers to live at subsistence level incomes because they can't get a fair rate for products at market. They pay for unjustifiable wars because everyone LOVES THEIR COUNTRY and SUPPORTS THE TROOPS and AMERICA IS THE BEST. They pay to bail out the banks who have been in charge of our government entire since Reagan shat all over our collective faces.
But will they pay taxes to get affordable health care? Nah that's socialist. It's like post-Bacon's Rebellion America. Their anger has been so successfully deflected that they've turned on some of the things they should be siding with, and have blind faith in the same evils they're protesting, just under a slight disguise.
Not that this bill is anything other than a gift to the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies. The best part is that the insurance companies are acting like they'd be taking a hit under this bill and have to raise rates... when they obviously will not.
Nothing short of universal health care under a single payer system will satisfy me. It's a travesty that the wealthiest nation in the world subjects illness to the profit motive. All parties are really to blame for the current situation. Among congress people, this may be the most partisan issue we'll see for a very long time. Regardless of the merit, most of the votes were predecided a long time ago. Shame on the republicans for that; I can almost guarantee you that the ballots were cast before any bill came to fruition.
And shame on the Ds and Obama for handling the entire issue so poorly. Obama's greenness has shown up a bit on this issue and how he choose to present it, and the rest of the democrats just display debacle after debacle. Every single step of the process, from the drafting to the quick distribute and vote has been a lesson on how not to do politics. They'll finally get it through with reconciliation but it won't be pretty, and I'm not sure the country is much better off for what's about to be passed.
On the plus side, the IRS is going to be creating a lot more jobs.
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United States22883 Posts
On March 21 2010 14:18 L wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 13:58 Rothbardian wrote:On March 21 2010 13:57 L wrote:On March 21 2010 13:55 Rothbardian wrote:On March 21 2010 13:48 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Whatever happens tomorrow people are going to go ape shit, some already are: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35965961/ns/politics-capitol_hill/
WASHINGTON - House Democrats heard it all Saturday — words of inspiration from President Barack Obama and raucous chants of protests from demonstrators. And at times it was flat-out ugly, including some racial epithets aimed at black members of Congress.
That usually happens when you try and control a persons life. That usually happens when you try and tackle a very rich and very interested lobby group. The Medical Insurance lobbies, lobbied for this. They are being granted a monopoly, just like the AMA. What company in their right mind would lobby against being granted a monopoly? Yeah, the sole libertarian in DC Ron Paul has a great lobby influence, that wants to control others lives... The fact that the public option isn't politically viable in the US as contrasted with the rest of the western world goes to show you how corrosive the hyper-autonomist philosophy actually is. Then again, at this stage conversation about the topic is irrelevant. The damage is already done.
I still think the idea is perfectly viable, just not under the pretense and label that it's been given.
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United States22883 Posts
Rothbardian, I'm curious if you're going to refrain from filling out a census form in protest of the federal government's information collection.
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United States3683 Posts
On March 21 2010 13:59 Louder wrote:
American taxpayers are fucking retards. They pay subsidies for farmers to live at subsistence level incomes because they can't get a fair rate for products at market. They pay for unjustifiable wars because everyone LOVES THEIR COUNTRY and SUPPORTS THE TROOPS and AMERICA IS THE BEST. They pay to bail out the banks who have been in charge of our government entire since Reagan shat all over our collective faces.
But will they pay taxes to get affordable health care? Nah that's socialist.
Not that this bill is anything other than a gift to the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies. The best part is that the insurance companies are acting like they'd be taking a hit under this bill and have to raise rates... when they obviously will not.
Nothing short of universal health care under a single payer system will satisfy me. It's a travesty that the wealthiest nation in the world subjects illness to the profit motive.
Fuck America. Our government is a wholly owned subsidiary of the pharmaceutical, financial and defense industries. Get out while you can, I say. The 99% of the population that have a whopping 5% of the wealth are convinced they need to protect the interests of the 1% because it's somehow good for them while they're being raped. If your idea of freedom is living in a plutonomy as a fucking peasant, then have at it retards.
On March 21 2010 14:01 Jibba wrote:
I'm starting to think the vocal protesters, especially tea party members, are people who use politics as an emotional escape for their every day lives. They don't know anything about politics or rule of law or economics, but something in their life is astray and they take it out in protest rather than confronting that issue, maybe because they can't. In some sense, that's ok because historically it's been a non-violent outlet.
It's like a kick the dog sort of thing. Maybe I'd change my mind for the <1% that are half way educated on the things they're saying, but I really don't believe that to be the case for most. It's certainly not ideology and it's not a calculated decision, it's just an emotional response.
Quoted for motherfucking truth
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On March 12 2010 06:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:New CBO Report released: Show nested quote +
WASHINGTON (AFP) – In a boost to President Barack Obama's flagship reform drive, the Congressional Budget Office said Thursday a Senate health care bill would cut the deficit by 118 billion dollars.
The release of the report thickened the intrigue in a tense period of vote hunting for Obama's Democratic allies in the House of Representatives, with the White House pushing for a crucial vote on the measure within a week.
The non-partisan CBO said in its updated assessment that the Senate bill would cost 875 billion dollars over 10 years and reduce projected budget deficits by 118 billion dollars.
Source
I think that 10-year figure you quoted is misleading. Coverage doesn't even begin until 4 years after the bill is passed, however I believe the revenue from taxes and medicare cuts begin almost immediately. So you have 10 years of revenue and 6 years of cost. So if they say the healthcare bill will cost 875 billion and that's just for 6 of the 10 years, I'd have to imagine the real cost is a little less than double of that.
I think it's slightly humorous that the Democrats constantly repeat statistics about how many people die every week we go without passing healthcare reform in order to try to get more support for it. Yet their bill doesn't even go into effect until 4 years after it's passed? If it's so urgent and people are dying you would think they wouldn't wait 4 years for coverage to begin. But I guess that's how they get their nice budget reducing 10 year figure.
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There is so much dishonesty and manipulation from those who oppose the plan (primarily the wealthy and the insurance companies) that even those who stand to benefit the most from this plan have in many cases been convinced that they are somehow getting screwed.
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On March 12 2010 12:10 Rothbardian wrote:
lol CBO. Has never gotten one prediction even remotely close to right, and people still cite them as credible! LOL. Routinely under assessing costs by 400%, since inception. We are CBO!
How does one under assess by 400%? Under assessing a cost by 100% would indicate an assessment of zero cost. Are you saying that the CBO routinely claims that government programs will generate three times their actual cost in additional revenues? As in "The CBO concludes that the war in Iraq will cost nothing, and generate 4.5 Trillion Dollars in additional revenue?"
From my understanding, the CBO routinely estimates correctly, but they are forced to estimate based on the law as it actually exists, not as it likely will exist. For example, the CBO estimates the budget deficit to be at an unrealistically low number over the next decade, because certain tax breaks are scheduled to expire this year and next year. Now politically, every one knows that those tax breaks will be extended, this year, right before elections, and the deficit will therefore be much higher than the CBO's estimate, but since those laws have not been passed YET, they can't factor that into their estimates.
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I have one basic, fundamental problem with government-run healthcare. I would rather have my healthcare be decided by and paid for by a contract that I decide the contents of, evaluated the tradeoffs of, and signed, rather than a bill written by group of individuals based on a general, possibly quite detailed, idea of the needs of the population. Yes, the bill will be good for the population. Will it address my needs? Possibly. Will it address my needs as well as something I chose myself? No.
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On March 21 2010 14:54 Pigsquirrel wrote:
I have one basic, fundamental problem with government-run healthcare. I would rather have my healthcare be decided by and paid for by a contract that I decide the contents of, evaluated the tradeoffs of, and signed, rather than a bill written by group of individuals based on a general, possibly quite detailed, idea of the needs of the population. Yes, the bill will be good for the population. Will it address my needs? Possibly. Will it address my needs as well as something I chose myself? No.
I totally agree with you (I live in Canada, Health Care is not as good as people make it to be).
But I think this bill is a step in the right direction. You might have the choice to sign various contracts that address you needs but a lot of people do not. They do not even have health care let alone choose. There is no way this bill will make everyone happy but it is a step towards the right direction.
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United States3683 Posts
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EPT
