EPTHe was standing all alone on the street corner. :<
Healthcare Reform in the US - Page 33
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
He was standing all alone on the street corner. :< | ||
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Melancholia
United States717 Posts
On March 21 2010 14:32 BlackJack wrote: Saying that it covers 10 years of revenue and six years of costs sounds nice politically, but it's untrue. There are both costs and revenue sources that phase in at different points in time over the next few years. The small business tax credit begins immediately, for example, and the "Cadillac plan tax" starts several years from now, currently set for 2018.I think that 10-year figure you quoted is misleading. Coverage doesn't even begin until 4 years after the bill is passed, however I believe the revenue from taxes and medicare cuts begin almost immediately. So you have 10 years of revenue and 6 years of cost. So if they say the healthcare bill will cost 875 billion and that's just for 6 of the 10 years, I'd have to imagine the real cost is a little less than double of that. | ||
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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 21 2010 13:59 Louder wrote: American taxpayers are fucking retards. They pay subsidies for farmers to live at subsistence level incomes because they can't get a fair rate for products at market. They pay for unjustifiable wars because everyone LOVES THEIR COUNTRY and SUPPORTS THE TROOPS and AMERICA IS THE BEST. They pay to bail out the banks who have been in charge of our government entire since Reagan shat all over our collective faces. But will they pay taxes to get affordable health care? Nah that's socialist. Not that this bill is anything other than a gift to the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies. The best part is that the insurance companies are acting like they'd be taking a hit under this bill and have to raise rates... when they obviously will not. Nothing short of universal health care under a single payer system will satisfy me. It's a travesty that the wealthiest nation in the world subjects illness to the profit motive. Fuck America. Our government is a wholly owned subsidiary of the pharmaceutical, financial and defense industries. Get out while you can, I say. The 99% of the population that have a whopping 5% of the wealth are convinced they need to protect the interests of the 1% because it's somehow good for them while they're being raped. If your idea of freedom is living in a plutonomy as a fucking peasant, then have at it retards. Dude Louder, no offense, but you need a history lesson. The bankers shat on America in 1913, thanks to Woodrow Wilson. Along with that we got the Income Tax (right out of the Communist Manifesto -- Progressive Income Tax), Wilsonian Trotskyite Foreign Policy of internationalism and interventionism, WW I, and his policies which led directly to WW II, Clayton Anti-Trust Acts which destroys market competition forces, instituted the Draft, started the Drug War with the very first prohibitions, and prosecuted the Anti-War movement. This is the legacy of Progressivism which dominated 20th Century America. The only people that confronted the Progressives in America were the Old Right -- H.L. Mencken, Rose Wilder Lane, Robert Taft, Albert Jay Nock, Howard Buffet, Ludwig von Mises, etc. and libertarians from the 70s onwards -- Ron Paul, Lew Rockwell, Murray Rothbard, Robert Nozick, Walter Block, etc. All of these people are Anti-War, Anti-Taxation, Anti-Monopoly, Anti-Statist, Pro-Liberty, Pro-Market -- Classical Liberals. These are the most out-spoken people. Through every administration. Through the whole century. They are also, the most prosecuted, for they are not hypocrits. They are not neo-conservatives. They are not progressives/liberals. They are not Statists. American taxpayers have no fucking clue that the Government still pays grand sums of subsidies to farmers which was instituted in WW II!! (War is the Health of the State and all that jazz) Farmers also do not live at subsistence levels. Those who love policies of War are the exact same people you want to hand over your life to vis a vis healthcare. There is something wrong with that scenario. As for the bank-bailout, most of America was against it. Who the fuck do you think controls America? International Bankers & the MIC. Do you understand? Politicians aren't there for you. They don't serve you. They rob you, they murder you, they kidnap you, and they control you for the 'special interests'. Why the fuck do you want to give them even more power?! You really need to look up the Federal Reserve, and its institutionalization. It was rammed through on Christmas Day by 14 Congressman by the behest of the Rockefellers, Warburgs, and other Bankers with the go-ahead from Woodrow Wilson. The same year also saw the Income Tax which they needed because the banking system they started on that day is a total sham. A hoax. It can't live without piling on massive debt to you. (Really though, it won't survive in the end anyways) Americans have killed off two Central Banks before, and we can do it again. Louder, as for your belief that creating a monopoly in healthcare will lower costs I must recommend watching Stefan Molyneux' two parter on Healthcare. Ever since the Government has intervened in the healthcare industry, prices have rose dramatically. Between the FDA, AMA, Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, etc. Before all that healthcare was very cheap and of very high quality. Also, Louder. What is the difference between healthcare and food? Why not Nationalize every Industry? I'm sorry to say this Louder, but it is the very Government at the core of the problem. It was the Government who came together with Corporations to form the Federal Reserve which rapes us. Ever heard of 'Not worth a Continental?'. We've had double digit inflation for decades now. It is quite amazing that electronics even come down in price. Cognitive Dissonance. | ||
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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 21 2010 14:24 Jibba wrote: Rothbardian, I'm curious if you're going to refrain from filling out a census form in protest of the federal government's information collection. Yes. The only Constitutional authorization is to see how many people live in your domecile for the purposes of representation. That is the only thing they can legally get from you. I however, won't even fill that out. | ||
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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 21 2010 14:18 L wrote: The fact that the public option isn't politically viable in the US as contrasted with the rest of the western world goes to show you how corrosive the hyper-autonomist philosophy actually is. Then again, at this stage conversation about the topic is irrelevant. The damage is already done. What the fuck are you talking about. Healthcare is all ready pretty much solely Government run. People who believe it isn't right now, are living in a delusional fantasy land. Tricare, Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, VA, FDA, AMA, et. al. It's a fucking joke. The major damage has been done ever since WW II. How has prices responded? Shooting through the damn roof, and now we have TRILLIONS in unfunded liabilities from these entitlements. Get rid of them all, and do it overnight. | ||
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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 21 2010 14:42 Wintermute wrote: How does one under assess by 400%? Under assessing a cost by 100% would indicate an assessment of zero cost. Are you saying that the CBO routinely claims that government programs will generate three times their actual cost in additional revenues? As in "The CBO concludes that the war in Iraq will cost nothing, and generate 4.5 Trillion Dollars in additional revenue?" From my understanding, the CBO routinely estimates correctly, but they are forced to estimate based on the law as it actually exists, not as it likely will exist. For example, the CBO estimates the budget deficit to be at an unrealistically low number over the next decade, because certain tax breaks are scheduled to expire this year and next year. Now politically, every one knows that those tax breaks will be extended, this year, right before elections, and the deficit will therefore be much higher than the CBO's estimate, but since those laws have not been passed YET, they can't factor that into their estimates. http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=395 http://reason.com/archives/2010/02/16/congress-phony-price-tags ![[image loading]](http://reason.com/assets/mc/khooks/2010_01/DeRugy-chart.jpg) Thank god we have the CBO there. From your understanding, you are wrong. You actually believe the CBO is 'non-partisan', read 'Non-Statist'? Sure it probably isn't Republican or Democrat, but it sure as hell is Statist, in that it protects the State and rubber stamps unlimited-Government. It's a total joke. You think top Economists work for the CBO? You think those at the top of their classes have as their lives dream to work for the CBO? Who do you think winds up working for the CBO? Even if you have the top of the class Economists, you still can't estimate the costs. Even the best entreprenuers routinely fail at calculating future costs, and what they are calculating is FAR less in scope than what the CBO does. The whole system is a fucking scam. A ruse. A distraction. Manipulation. As an edit: Where has Philosophy gone? Is everyone utilitarians? Where is integrity? Where are principles? Are you willing to sell out liberty? -.- Jefferson, Henry, Lee, and the gang must be rolling in their graves, and Marx must be laughing all the way to the bank. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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ShroomyD
Australia245 Posts
On March 21 2010 18:35 Mothxal wrote: Libertarianism is philosophy for 16 year olds. The reason the US government is bad is because it's anti-democratic, imperial and controlled by the wealthy, not because it's "a government". Lame post in my opinion. I expected better from a dutch person! | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On March 21 2010 17:42 Rothbardian wrote: Yes. The only Constitutional authorization is to see how many people live in your domecile for the purposes of representation. That is the only thing they can legally get from you. I however, won't even fill that out. Thanks. My district could use more federal funding, I'm glad you're giving it less competition. | ||
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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 21 2010 18:35 Mothxal wrote: Libertarianism is philosophy for 16 year olds. The reason the US government is bad is because it's anti-democratic, imperial and controlled by the wealthy, not because it's "a government". Democracy is the worship of jackals by jackasses -- H.L. Mencken Libertarianism or what others might call Classical Liberalism, is the most intellectual political philosophy the world has ever known. From the School of Salamanca, to the Enlightenment, to the radical Laissez-Fairests. It is the Philosophy of Liberty. I'll inform John Locke, Voltaire, JB Say, Frederic Bastiat, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Richard Cobden, Henry Bright, Carl Menger, Rose Wilder Lane, Mark Twain, H.L. Mencken, Albert Jay Nock, Murray Rothbard, Robert Nozick, and the entirity, that it's just meddlesome non-sense by 16 year-olds. From the 16th Century to the 19th Century, that whole gib you did, was mere non-sense for 16 year olds..Fighting a Revolution for liberty. You 'tards. Don't you know Menshevism, is the way to go! Screw logic, and human knowledge. Whatever the majority decides! | ||
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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 21 2010 18:42 Jibba wrote: Thanks. My district could use more federal funding, I'm glad you're giving it less competition. You reap what you sow. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 21 2010 18:46 Mothxal wrote: *shrug*, internet debates on politics are always derailed by the resident libertarian faction. At least, the right-wing variety. How about you respond to the facts I presented, instead of resorting to ad hominems and distraction. I'm not de-railing you are. Now, I ask of you, will you respond with some modicum of sincerity, or will you continue to ad hom.? | ||
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Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On March 03 2010 19:14 Rothbardian wrote: Take it from Stefan Molyneux a Canadian: Dr. Mary Ruwart & the FDA (How many millions the FDA has killed): Bump. I believe this is quite pertinent. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
 . Why do you want to give corporations more power eh?And LOL do you realize that Molyneux's plan is to let people take untested drugs and pray that it lowers costs? The best defense that plan was, "well hey, placebo effect!" Not to mention he makes a large number of assumptions. Such as, not noticing people live longer, invariably raising medical costs over a lifetime and putting strain on insurance companies, plus assuming technology makes things cheaper. I happily pay higher costs knowing that my drugs are reasonably safe. You know what would make healthcare go back to 1950 levels? Killing everyone 10 years before when they would have died otherwise so they don't suck up many thousands of dollars of drugs, therapy, assistance, hospital time, and surgeries that will hardly keep them alive a little longer. I read somewhere (i'll get back to you on this) ~75% of all healthcare spending is done within the last 5-10 years of life. Costs are inevitable given longer lifespans and poorer diets. Of course regulation added to the cost, but nothing like age and advanced treatments have. That said, I agree competition is awesome. I'd love to see more of it in schools, medicine, military contracts, that sort of thing. Still, the most important part is keeping for-profit interests away from the government. Once that is done we can debate how to regulate industries to keep consumers safe, the businesses sound, while doing the least to impede competition and dismantling monopolies. As it stands few politicians get elected without significant contributions from corporate interests. Go look up Boehner, the minority leader lol. That clown works for his campaign distributions and just about nothing else. Except war and bank bailouts. Cannot stress enough how we do need healthcare reform of some degree. There are a lot of people who could pay but don't. Young people especially. Perfectly healthy and will reduce costs for everyone, but current policies keep young people from doing it. We have bad school-to-work transitions, education is expensive, and kids are thoroughly unprepared to manage money in our consumerist world. All of it leads to kids being out of work, out of school, or spending too much time transitioning and working minimum wage shitty jobs with no chance of getting anywhere. Ideally their parents would pay for their healthcare, but how often does that happen? Changing it doesn't take much either. Allow kids to stay on their parent's plans (We need to make sure parents HAVE a plan...), finance classes in school, need-based financial aid that is better managed, better resources for teenagers so they know McDonald's isn't their only option. That is healthcare reform I'd like to see. Effective, no government monopoly, reduces costs for everyone long-term, and tackles a whole age group that is going without insurance. Back to Boehner. He is the reason you Tea Party people should work with us more liberal people. You have to vote Republican, but the Republicans are even more sold out, pro-corporation, jingoistic, constitution damning people than the Democrats are. Time to work together to end the system we have in place, no? Especially the fucking Fed which appoints people from Goldman Sachs so they can promote Sach's interests while on the Fed. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On March 21 2010 18:58 Romantic wrote: It isn't reaching the heart of the problem: capitalism is currently fused with government. Yay I <3 Corporatism. It's the best system in the world. We must meld corporations with the government even more! Whatever's good for corporations is good for the nation! /sarcasm I'm pretty sure everyone here can agree that this is the root problem of our society. Whether you're libertarian or socialist, you're not going to get anywhere without stopping this problem first, one way or another. Right now, there's no way that reform (or deregulation) can get passed when all of our government officials are in the pockets of corporations. Citizens United v. FEC just exacerbates this problem.... Wait I can't go down that road. The flaming on that should be saved for a more appropriate time Cannot stress enough how we do need healthcare reform of some degree. There are a lot of people who could pay but don't. Young people especially. Perfectly healthy and will reduce costs for everyone, but current policies keep young people from doing it. We have bad school-to-work transitions, education is expensive, and kids are thoroughly unprepared to manage money in our consumerist world. All of it leads to kids being out of work, out of school, or spending too much time transitioning and working minimum wage shitty jobs with no chance of getting anywhere. Ideally their parents would pay for their healthcare, but how often does that happen? Changing it doesn't take much either. Allow kids to stay on their parent's plans (We need to make sure parents HAVE a plan...), finance classes in school, need-based financial aid that is better managed, better resources for teenagers so they know McDonald's isn't their only option. That is healthcare reform I'd like to see. Effective, no government monopoly, reduces costs for everyone long-term, and tackles a whole age group that is going without insurance. I agree with your first paragraph... Disagree with your bolded statement. Why not Single Payer? Largest risk pool possible, avoids the anti-laws of economics problem of health insurance companies. By single payer I mean government only taking over the role of health insurance companies. I'm still a bit dubious as to whether socialized medicine is more effective or not. | ||
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
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Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
My parents never had problems with paying for healthcare. My mother raised me for 7 years alone with only a high school education and still managed to pay for my eye issues, divorce lawyers etc. She was just a telephone operator. She even managed to buy a home before she remarried. If she can do it, why can't other people? | ||
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