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I think a lot of American media is comparing this to the UK health system because it's one of the worst examples. I mean almost any other euro country has a better system.
A lot of people use ideological arguments to attack health-care, but the fact is those ideologies aren't really...practical. For example some hardcore libertarians think that all "charitable" (even if they may be good for society) taxes should be optional, and that offensive wars should be fought by volunteers, using donated money...that's just impractical.
maybe that isn't the best example...
maybe another one..some libertarians believe that the rich should not be taxed more than middle/lower classes, even though the more money you have, the bigger ability you gain to get money, which unchecked would just make the wealth distribution even more imba than it already is.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On December 18 2009 14:16 Kingsp4de20 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 12:02 Mystlord wrote:On December 18 2009 10:34 Kingsp4de20 wrote:
My 2 cents....
You really want to trust the government with your health?
When was the last time you went to the DMV....
And even if this health care plan thing is a good deal why are they in such a rush to push it through before christmas. Obama took his sweet time weighing his options when it came to sending troops in Afganistan, but for some reason this has to be done right now with no time to spare. Even if America does end up with a public health care system wouldnt you want it to be thought out real long and hard before the government takes over 1/6th of the economy... You trust the government enough to pay taxes apparently. You trust the government enough to be a part of Medicare and Social Security. And the reason this needs to be passed immediately is because of the urgency of the problem. 22000 people die every year due to lack of health insurance. 100000 people die every year because of hospital infections. In 8 years, medicare will go bankrupt, and we're not including standard rising costs. Seriously, SOMETHING needs to get passed this year. If it was up to me, I'd keep the bill as is and pass right now. I don't see why we need to force a public option or medicare buy ins right now if we can get something done immediately. If I had a choice I would love to opt out of medicare and social security....by the time i would need to use it the moneys going to be gone. All I'm going to ask is where in the constitution does it day people have the right to health care.
Then leave America once you're 18/are able to support yourself. Go live elsewhere.
Constitutional basis? It says it right here under the Preamble:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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The entire point of this effort is that health care should be a right. Saying that it isn't like that's a talking point is pretty dumb.
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United States43934 Posts
On December 18 2009 15:46 ShaperofDreams wrote:
I think a lot of American media is comparing this to the UK health system because it's one of the worst examples. I mean almost any other euro country has a better system.
A lot of the information I hear Americans say about our health system is either twisted or wrong too. By carefully selecting words and refusing to place the example within the context of the system as a whole you can create misleading arguments. I'm always surprised to be told by people in a different continent that the healthcare system in my country is broken when my personal experience tells me otherwise.
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On December 18 2009 16:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 15:46 ShaperofDreams wrote:
I think a lot of American media is comparing this to the UK health system because it's one of the worst examples. I mean almost any other euro country has a better system. A lot of the information I hear Americans say about our health system is either twisted or wrong too. By carefully selecting words and refusing to place the example within the context of the system as a whole you can create misleading arguments. I'm always surprised to be told by people in a different continent that the healthcare system in my country is broken when my personal experience tells me otherwise.
if you think that's bad you should hear what they say about our health care system
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On December 18 2009 16:05 Tippereth wrote:
The entire point of this effort is that health care should be a right. Saying that it isn't like that's a talking point is pretty dumb.
Yeah well the U.S. is a pretty dumb country, I mean ffs conservative protests believe that health care reform is the equivalent to the Holocaust.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On December 18 2009 16:30 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 16:05 Tippereth wrote:
The entire point of this effort is that health care should be a right. Saying that it isn't like that's a talking point is pretty dumb. Yeah well the U.S. is a pretty dumb country, I mean ffs conservative protests believe that health care reform is the equivalent to the Holocaust.
Hear hear. I say retract all government aid from those people and see how they feel then... It always takes some sort of disaster to bring people to really see how they've gone wrong... Unless you're talking about the Great Recession because nothing has freaking changed from this entire experience. Seriously.
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On December 18 2009 15:48 Mystlord wrote:Constitutional basis? It says it right here under the Preamble: Show nested quote +We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The preamble doesn't confer congressional authority, try reading what powers the congress does have.
The preamble says We the people of the United States, promote the general welfare, not We the government.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On December 18 2009 17:26 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 15:48 Mystlord wrote:Constitutional basis? It says it right here under the Preamble: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. The preamble doesn't confer congressional authority, try reading what powers the congress does have. The preamble says We the people of the United States, promote the general welfare, not We the government.
Go back a bit more in the conversation.
On December 18 2009 15:48 Mystlord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 14:16 Kingsp4de20 wrote:
All I'm going to ask is where in the constitution does it day people have the right to health care.
Constitutional basis? It says it right here under the Preamble: Show nested quote +We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
He asked for where the PEOPLE have the right to health care. If you want Constitutional justification for Congressional involvement in health care, I point to:
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
The taxes portion applies to for example, the Cadillac Tax, so Congress obviously has some regulatory power over health care. Yet the general Welfare portion is open to debate, but you can make a fair Constitutional argument by combining this clause with:
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
Same basis as the Civil Rights Act of 1964. I encourage you to look it up if you don't know how Congress justified it. Scalia's head probably exploded when he read that bill.
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Nationalized healthcare is pretty nice after all. Then again, I hear that waiting lines are much shorter in America than Europe in general? Sweden probably has one of the worlds best healthcare systems (and many other governmental functions). Now we have a right-wing government though which has resulted in prices going up and more privatizing (I'm not saying it's a bad thing), but it's still only $30 to go do a doctor and $40 to go to a specialist doctor in any field.
Oh and then there's a price roof where you don't have to pay more for healthcare for a year if your total costs exceed $120. There's a price roof for medicines as well, which is higher though, $200 IIRC.
But we do pay 1/3 of what we make in tax. But it also gets you money if you don't have work or any sort of income; about $1000/month. And if you used to have a job and get laid off you can still collect quite nice money from the state. I know people who have $2000/month in unemployment cash each month.
Higher taxes basically result in a higher living standard for everyone in a society, at the expense of the really ambitious people and companies who have a hard time making money. So I'm not sure I like the idea of high taxes ideally, but it is what it is and it's quite good.
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[B]On December 18 2009 17:43 Mystlord wrote: Show nested quote +To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; Same basis as the Civil Rights Act of 1964. I encourage you to look it up if you don't know how Congress justified it. Scalia's head probably exploded when he read that bill.
Constitutionalists tell me that 'regulate' means (back then at least) to keep regular -- making sure no taxes, imports or protectionist measures were put in by the states that would prevent people from doing as they wished in good ol exceptional USAmerica.
Alllllssoooooo I just want to know one thing, where does the state get its authority from? Social contract? because it has guns to back up its edicts? tell me plz
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On December 18 2009 18:41 ShroomyD wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On December 18 2009 17:43 Mystlord wrote: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; Same basis as the Civil Rights Act of 1964. I encourage you to look it up if you don't know how Congress justified it. Scalia's head probably exploded when he read that bill. Constitutionalists tell me that 'regulate' means (back then at least) to keep regular -- making sure no taxes, imports or protectionist measures were put in by the states that would prevent people from doing as they wished in good ol exceptional USAmerica. Alllllssoooooo I just want to know one thing, where does the state get its authority from? Social contract? because it has guns to back up its edicts? tell me plz
Even though regulate can mean "to keep normal" doesn't mean that Congress can't interfere in interstate commerce due to health care issues. If health care issues in one state causes people to want to live in Missouri instead of Mississippi, then Congress should step in to rectify that issue. Congress can't force a state to change its form of health care, so it can implement a public option to provide equal health care to all people in all states.
I know I'm oversimplifying and taking a very specific part of the health care bill, but it's just to get the point across. The example given might not be the best either, but you get the point.
The state gets its authority from the people. Same with the national government.
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If you want to live in a utopia with socialized healthcare move to europe no one is stopping you. The crap they are trying to force through is so stupid, just to say look at us we passed healthcare reform!
The majority of Americans do not want it.
Can't wait till 2010 when all the socio-leftist nutzos get canned.
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On December 18 2009 15:37 Bosu wrote:
I can't imagine how people can be against health care reform. How can people be so evil that they don't believe millions of americans should get good health care.
Ok, saying you are an evil person because you don't think the government should FORCE you to pay for something is pretty funny. 
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On December 18 2009 15:37 Bosu wrote:
I can't imagine how people can be against health care reform. How can people be so evil that they don't believe millions of americans should get good health care.
Why are you so evil that you condone stealing on a nation wide level.
The money has to come from somewhere, obama doesn't just have a magic endless chest of money.
Forced charity = theft
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On December 19 2009 00:48 Undisputed- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 15:37 Bosu wrote:
I can't imagine how people can be against health care reform. How can people be so evil that they don't believe millions of americans should get good health care. Why are you so evil that you condone stealing on a nation wide level. The money has to come from somewhere, obama doesn't just have a magic endless chest of money. Forced charity = theft
Sup aegrean, we missed you.
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On December 19 2009 00:48 Undisputed- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 15:37 Bosu wrote:
I can't imagine how people can be against health care reform. How can people be so evil that they don't believe millions of americans should get good health care. Why are you so evil that you condone stealing on a nation wide level. The money has to come from somewhere, obama doesn't just have a magic endless chest of money. Forced charity = theft
Well, its neither forced charity, nor theft. Its government taxation for the welfare of the nation which is legal.
But while we're making ridiculous definitions to shift the terms of the debate off somewhere into fantasy land, I might as well state that evil is good because greed, one of the deadly sins, promotes economic efficiency and wealth generation. In that light, being evil and stealing on the nationwide level is fantastic!
There are clearly zero structural flaws in my logic, as with yours. Cheers to you sir, may we both move forward into a new age that is shepherded by blowhards and pontificating populists without regard for anything other than ideologies!
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There is no reasonable opposition to a nationalised healthcare system.
It is in everyone's best interest.
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-Nuked-
Sorry, was a little too aggressive 
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EPT
