On August 16 2009 23:45 HaFnium wrote: The medical system in Hong Kong originated from British's Universal Health care System. In the private sector, I do notice that a lot of doctors who take advantage of the medical insurance to persuade patients to have unnecessary surgeries/medications/tests to sort of "exploit" the insurance system.
I have actually encountered a doctor who had some wrong diagnosis, pretty scary stuff really.
I think the best system (and I think this is what Obama is proposing) is have a mixture between the British/American system. Both private sectors should coexist, people who prefer private service can just get insurance, while the less fortunate ones can still have basic medical service provided free/nomial fee from the government.
To ppl living in UK: How many people go to the private hospitals? I have noticed some like Nuffield Health Hospitals.
edit: lol @ drama btw
What you described is the British system although the basic medical service is pretty high. I'm not sure what proportion of the population use private insurance as opposed to the NHS but it is a successful industry. We spend about $2500 per person per year on the NHS (£90 billion) as opposed to $8000 per person per year ($2.4 trillion in 2008) in the United States. To put it another way, the average family of 4 would have $22000 more cash in hand every single year if your healthcare system cost the same as ours.
Yes it's good. I live in Sweden a country an American liberal would call a socialist state. Yes we pay a little more tax every month but we have a great welfare system. If you get ill you don't have to worry, you will get very good medical treatment, just as good as private healthcare. If you are young you don't have to worry, you will be able to go to a very good school and even studying at top university's is free of charges (except buying your literature). In other words it's safe, even if you totally failed your life you still have something to fall back to, we take care of you together. Because of this I gladly pay a little more tax because I get so much more back. Not everything in life needs to be on the open market.
For one, the majority can vote for a tax on other people and not themselves. This is what I mean when I say time and time again that a Democracy leads to Despotism and in its values Democracy always leads to the majority denying the minority their rights...USA was founded as a REPUBLIC.
In the first elections of our country, not every state had a popular vote. Only a small percentage of people cast a vote for president. In most states (maybe all?) you could not vote unless you owned property. Slaves made up something like 20% of the population and could not vote. Woman could not vote. I am not sure why you would allude to our founded electoral process as superior immediately after criticizing such a system. Is that not a case where the minority is voting for the majority?
Just curious, from those who have said healthcare is a right, what ethical basis is there for it to be a positive right? It seems fairly obvious that someone with the means to pay should not be denied care if he or she asks for it, but what's the ethical basis for saying that if one does not have the means to pay for healthcare, he or she is still entitled to it? Not trying to troll anyone, I'm legitimately curious, because I see the argument that "healthcare is a right" comes up a lot.
Bear in mind that public healthcare can exist without that argument. Public education comes about not because people have a positive right to be educated, but by mutual agreement that a public that's educated to a certain level helps create an overall more productive society. Public healthcare can be such as well, but if so, people need to stop using "healthcare is a right" as a catchall answer to why public healthcare should be implemented.
On August 16 2009 23:16 Caller wrote: To the person that posted about suing anything and winning, have you ever seen a malpractice lawsuit's overreaching capabilities?
I wasn't talking about medical lawsuits specifically. That was a stab at the American justice system as a whole. ^^
Welcome to America. Sue your way to anything your heart desires.
The lack of respect the majority of Americans have for each other as well as their greed is a very hostile mixture.
TheYango wrote: It seems fairly obvious that someone with the means to pay should not be denied care if he or she asks for it, but what's the ethical basis for saying that if one does not have the means to pay for healthcare, he or she is still entitled to it?
It's only "obvious" to you as an American because that's what you've grown up with.
In Denmark the legal drinking age is 16, used to be 15 and it has never been strictly enforced. That's because we realize and know what drinking is and does to you.
In America you demonize drinking. When I see talk shows or any American tv show where drinking is involved it's portrayed in an absurd way. Like drinking will completely change who you are.
You get the right to get married, effectively signing a "life long contract" before you're allowed to drink. You get the right to join the army and go kill people and get traumatized by war before you're allowed to drink. You get the right to ruin your ENTIRE life with debt before you get the right to drink.
And you don't see ANYTHING wrong with that priority? I get this picture of Zerg spawning 2 Ultralisks from an egg for 50 minerals at Hatchery tech and spawning 1 Zergling from an egg at Hive tech vs. how it really works. It seems absurd.
The same goes for your gun rights. They blow the mind of most people outside your country. Texas teachers to carry guns in school? wtf?
What I'm trying to say is that everyone is biased through social programming one way or another. As your intelligence and sense of ethics increase you'll notice that you're going to be able to question a lot of the things you know to form your own view of the world. This is called becoming an adult.
Unfortunately a vast majority of Americans don't grow up.
On August 17 2009 01:28 Jayve wrote: It's only "obvious" to you as an American because that's what you've grown up with.
In Denmark the legal drinking age is 16, used to be 15 and it has never been strictly enforced. That's because we realize and know what drinking is and does to you.
In America you demonize drinking. When I see talk shows or any American tv show where drinking is involved it's portrayed in an absurd way. Like drinking will completely change who you are.
You get the right to get married, effectively signing a "life long contract" before you're allowed to drink. You get the right to join the army and go kill people and get traumatized by war before you're allowed to drink. You get the right to ruin your ENTIRE life with debt before you get the right to drink.
And you don't see ANYTHING wrong with that priority? I get this picture of Zerg spawning 2 Ultralisks from an egg for 50 minerals at Hatchery tech and spawning 1 Zergling from an egg at Hive tech vs. how it really works. It seems absurd.
The same goes for your gun rights. They blow the mind of most people outside your country. Texas teachers to carry guns in school? wtf?
What I'm trying to say is that everyone is biased through social programming one way or another. As your intelligence and sense of ethics increase you'll notice that you're going to be able to question a lot of the things you know to form your own view of the world. This is called becoming an adult.
Unfortunately a vast majority of Americans don't grow up.
Uh I don't know where you hear that teachers get to carry guns to school =\ Yea we have a weird drinking age that most people don't agree with but who cares? Drinking isn't "Demonized" in the US lol you really don't know much about the US do you? I was on excavation in Poland last summer and all hours of the day every day there were drunk as hell people (all ages even older people) doing stupid shit around our site and lab (having drunk people wander into your lab constantly and doing shit was a real pain). Should I make narrow minded blanket statements about Polish people? No because MOST people EVERY country are reasonable, respectable people. I think your the one who needs to get a clue and grow up.
BTW, about that one girl from Pennsylvania, who said she doesn't want the US to turn into Russia or whatever, I was born in a former communist country and trust me, my 6 years of living their were the best, EVER.
Nobody was hungry, poor, or rich ( except some politically strong people ) and fat, Tito ruled Yugoslavia in a nice fashion, he was a good man, and communisum was the way to go, everyone got along and it was good.
Then certain country's wanted to have a democracy and all hell broke loose.
Also that girl got raped by MSNBC lmao, they made such a fool out of her it wasn't even funny,
On August 16 2009 23:16 Caller wrote: To the person that posted about suing anything and winning, have you ever seen a malpractice lawsuit's overreaching capabilities?
I wasn't talking about medical lawsuits specifically. That was a stab at the American justice system as a whole. ^^
TheYango wrote: It seems fairly obvious that someone with the means to pay should not be denied care if he or she asks for it, but what's the ethical basis for saying that if one does not have the means to pay for healthcare, he or she is still entitled to it?
It's only "obvious" to you as an American because that's what you've grown up with.
In Denmark the legal drinking age is 16, used to be 15 and it has never been strictly enforced. That's because we realize and know what drinking is and does to you.
In America you demonize drinking. When I see talk shows or any American tv show where drinking is involved it's portrayed in an absurd way. Like drinking will completely change who you are.
You get the right to get married, effectively signing a "life long contract" before you're allowed to drink. You get the right to join the army and go kill people and get traumatized by war before you're allowed to drink. You get the right to ruin your ENTIRE life with debt before you get the right to drink.
And you don't see ANYTHING wrong with that priority? I get this picture of Zerg spawning 2 Ultralisks from an egg for 50 minerals at Hatchery tech and spawning 1 Zergling from an egg at Hive tech vs. how it really works. It seems absurd.
The same goes for your gun rights. They blow the mind of most people outside your country. Texas teachers to carry guns in school? wtf?
What I'm trying to say is that everyone is biased through social programming one way or another. As your intelligence and sense of ethics increase you'll notice that you're going to be able to question a lot of the things you know to form your own view of the world. This is called becoming an adult.
Unfortunately a vast majority of Americans don't grow up.
I think one reason that some people have a lot of trouble with and dislike taxes is part of their way of viewing society. They might see the economy as society and they see government as some sort of layer between them and the economy that "steals" part of their money before it gets into their hand. As if that money was in any way entitled to them in the first place. What they fail to see is that the government is as much a part of that system as the economy is.
In fact they themselves are not excluded from that system. If you were born in a hospital, raised in a house built by carpenters, raised eating food made by farmers, taught in school by teachers etc. You are completely dependent on society and any form of value you create inside society, you partly have society to thank for.
As long as you agree that you are a product and a part of society and that the government is as much a construct of that society as the economy or money its self is then I think your views on taxes might change.
*edit* Just woke up when I wrote this and I didn't really feel I got the wording right. I'm betting someone will come in and misunderstand the whole post before I have coffee and wake up.
On August 17 2009 01:28 Jayve wrote: It's only "obvious" to you as an American because that's what you've grown up with.
In Denmark the legal drinking age is 16, used to be 15 and it has never been strictly enforced. That's because we realize and know what drinking is and does to you.
In America you demonize drinking. When I see talk shows or any American tv show where drinking is involved it's portrayed in an absurd way. Like drinking will completely change who you are.
You get the right to get married, effectively signing a "life long contract" before you're allowed to drink. You get the right to join the army and go kill people and get traumatized by war before you're allowed to drink. You get the right to ruin your ENTIRE life with debt before you get the right to drink.
And you don't see ANYTHING wrong with that priority? I get this picture of Zerg spawning 2 Ultralisks from an egg for 50 minerals at Hatchery tech and spawning 1 Zergling from an egg at Hive tech vs. how it really works. It seems absurd.
The same goes for your gun rights. They blow the mind of most people outside your country. Texas teachers to carry guns in school? wtf?
What I'm trying to say is that everyone is biased through social programming one way or another. As your intelligence and sense of ethics increase you'll notice that you're going to be able to question a lot of the things you know to form your own view of the world. This is called becoming an adult.
Unfortunately a vast majority of Americans don't grow up.
Way to go. You decided to nitpick one sentence, and completely ignored my actual question.
Even if you don't take for granted whether or not you can obtain a service you pay for, it doesn't address the question of "how is free provided healthcare a positive right?" which I asked.
When it comes to taxes I personally think we should pay more. However, we as a country will never pay close to what most European countries do. The whole tradition (going back to the founding) was a smaller government and smaller taxes and let people so what they will with their money to provide for some basic things (such as healthcare). Its really just conflicting ideals at the base level as to the level of involvement of the government. Europeans are just used to a bit more power and services being government controlled.
Its almost like we are just stubborn and trying to be different. Look at the US with the metric system and using Fahrenheit. Im very sick of the people who are going crazy saying if this passes we are "socialist" and that its the end of the world BS.
Another note on this, Americans generally dislike change. The reason is because for most people life is fine so why change it? The ones who need help often have too little voice while those with everything or just enough to be happy have it all. You won't get mass support for change unless most people are directly suffering. Most people in the US are fine with health care so its not a personal issue for them and they think that any changes might turn their perfectly good health care into something worse. That is what its all about the middle class people (rich will get good HC no matter what) worrying that their HC will change for the worse. Also more taxes =\
On August 17 2009 02:55 Slaughter wrote: Another note on this, Americans generally dislike change. The reason is because for most people life is fine so why change it? The ones who need help often have too little voice while those with everything or just enough to be happy have it all. You won't get mass support for change unless most people are directly suffering. Most people in the US are fine with health care so its not a personal issue for them and they think that any changes might turn their perfectly good health care into something worse. That is what its all about the middle class people (rich will get good HC no matter what) worrying that their HC will change for the worse. Also more taxes =\
I think it would be a different story if it was tort reform. The healthcare bill was just too messed up.
On August 16 2009 23:16 Caller wrote: To the person that posted about suing anything and winning, have you ever seen a malpractice lawsuit's overreaching capabilities?
I wasn't talking about medical lawsuits specifically. That was a stab at the American justice system as a whole. ^^
TheYango wrote: It seems fairly obvious that someone with the means to pay should not be denied care if he or she asks for it, but what's the ethical basis for saying that if one does not have the means to pay for healthcare, he or she is still entitled to it?
It's only "obvious" to you as an American because that's what you've grown up with.
In Denmark the legal drinking age is 16, used to be 15 and it has never been strictly enforced. That's because we realize and know what drinking is and does to you.
In America you demonize drinking. When I see talk shows or any American tv show where drinking is involved it's portrayed in an absurd way. Like drinking will completely change who you are.
You get the right to get married, effectively signing a "life long contract" before you're allowed to drink. You get the right to join the army and go kill people and get traumatized by war before you're allowed to drink. You get the right to ruin your ENTIRE life with debt before you get the right to drink.
And you don't see ANYTHING wrong with that priority? I get this picture of Zerg spawning 2 Ultralisks from an egg for 50 minerals at Hatchery tech and spawning 1 Zergling from an egg at Hive tech vs. how it really works. It seems absurd.
The same goes for your gun rights. They blow the mind of most people outside your country. Texas teachers to carry guns in school? wtf?
What I'm trying to say is that everyone is biased through social programming one way or another. As your intelligence and sense of ethics increase you'll notice that you're going to be able to question a lot of the things you know to form your own view of the world. This is called becoming an adult.
Unfortunately a vast majority of Americans don't grow up.
On behalf of Denmark I apologize.
For helvede hvad er det for en gang lort at lukke ud?
On August 17 2009 01:42 Slaughter wrote: Drinking isn't "Demonized" in the US lol you really don't know much about the US do you?
Compared to the rest of us, it is.
On August 17 2009 01:42 Slaughter wrote: I was on excavation in Poland last summer and all hours of the day every day there were drunk as hell people (all ages even older people) doing stupid shit around our site and lab (having drunk people wander into your lab constantly and doing shit was a real pain). Should I make narrow minded blanket statements about Polish people?
Haha, funny you mention that. Polish people are actually very known for their use of alchohol. :D
In Denmark some of our comedians even make scetches about the involving the Polish:
TheYango wrote: Way to go. You decided to nitpick one sentence, and completely ignored my actual question.
First you make a statement that it's fairly obvious. I tell you why that initial statement is wrong and I tell you about how you evolve ethics. Ethics are a personal thing. What I think is fair or reasonable is unlikely to be the same as everyone else.
As for:
TheYango wrote: how is free provided healthcare a positive right?"
Let me make sure I understand first then. Are you asking why it's a "good" right, or if it's a "definate" right?
Hans-Titan: For helvede hvad er det for en gang lort at lukke ud?
Hvad mener du? Det eneste jeg sagde i forhold til Danmark er at vi har et afslappet forhold til alchohol og at vores drikke alder er betydeligt meget lavere end den er i Amerika. Hvad er der forkert i det?
Resten af det siger jeg da ikke på Danmarks vegne. Oo
Yes because everyone is supposed to know about some small rural town that made this decision to allow teachers to carry guns. ONE SMALL TOWN in the entire country.
Hans-Titan: For helvede hvad er det for en gang lort at lukke ud?
Hvad mener du? Det eneste jeg sagde i forhold til Danmark er at vi har et afslappet forhold til alchohol og at vores drikke alder er betydeligt meget lavere end den er i Amerika. Hvad er der forkert i det?
Resten af det siger jeg da ikke på Danmarks vegne. Oo
Danmark är som Sverige fast folk är gladare och dör tidigare
On August 16 2009 20:10 Aegraen wrote: For one, the majority can vote for a tax on other people and not themselves. This is what I mean when I say time and time again that a Democracy leads to Despotism and in its values Democracy always leads to the majority denying the minority their rights...USA was founded as a REPUBLIC.
If you want to complain about taxation without representation, it should be about people under 18 who work and have to pay taxes.
On August 16 2009 23:56 TeCh)PsylO wrote: In the first elections of our country, not every state had a popular vote. Only a small percentage of people cast a vote for president. In most states (maybe all?) you could not vote unless you owned property. Slaves made up something like 20% of the population and could not vote. Woman could not vote. I am not sure why you would allude to our founded electoral process as superior immediately after criticizing such a system. Is that not a case where the minority is voting for the majority?
The first presidential election had more than a 90% turnout of the voting population.
And to whoever thinks that they will be paying $50 out of their paycheck for healthcare is grossly misinformed. The "$50" you pay would be to subsidize public healthcare so that your premiums for the healthcare plan you've bought is "cheaper." And if you don't buy a healthcare plan, you give them your bank account number and they withdrawn a few hundred dollars just incase you get sick every month. Healthcare won't be cheaper (as any economist or business owner or anyone else who understands how businesses work), they are just taking the money from you differently so you think it's cheaper.
On August 17 2009 03:36 Slaughter wrote: Yes because everyone is supposed to know about some small rural town that made this decision to allow teachers to carry guns. ONE SMALL TOWN in the entire country.
I know about it?
I'm not an American and I use The Daily Show + The Colbert Report as my sole news sources. (if you can call them news sources at all)
What's your excuse?
You're also missing the point. It has nothing to do with the size of the town. It's the absurdity of the decision that makes it something you would potentionally have noted.
Seriously though. I don't expect you to know EVERYTHING that goes on in your country. I sure as hell don't know everything that goes on in mine. But did you notice how quickly you got defensive when I pointed it out to you?
Do yourself a favor and figure out why that is. You could just have said: "Oh, didn't know that lol"
EPT
