EPTCIA admits it misled Congress... - Page 2
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
On July 09 2009 15:43 daz wrote: seems that waterboarding is a lot worse then i thought, so i can see why people have a problem with it. I guess to me it depends on the situation, honestly, if we take a situation like the 'war on terrorism' where there is so much covert activity, and a country like the states has to protect its own citizens and interests, i fully expect them to use torture and i honestly cant even imagine any other scenario regardless of whether its right or wrong. Take this situation for example, lets imagine the CIA in pakistan captures some high level al-qeida (no idea how to spell this) dude. Now this dude is obviously going to have a lot of information about what his group is doing, information about future planned terrorist attacks, and the CIA having this information would be able to prevent attacks and save lives of their citizens, as well as potentially capture other enemies. Now in this situation i dont even think its a question of what to do, in fact i would say they are OBLIGATED to do whatever is necessary to gain this information as this is their main purpose. I've never understood what is that people get all up in arms about, this is how intelligence works, every country does this, every group, faction, you name it, its pretty much unavoidable. Its not even realistic or reasonable to expect otherwise. Yes except a lot of terrorist groups make it so no one person has THAT much information on any particular thing. Also from a country like the US its pretty hypocritical to use torture when we are supposed to be "the good guys" but the real problem is the world isn't black and white like movies where the good guys play clean and win so thats why they do this. The US is just a bit better and more secretive about what they do to try to uphold their image. | ||
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HaXxorIzed
Australia8434 Posts
On July 09 2009 15:48 daz wrote: it wouldnt surprise me at all that most of these people have been brainwashed to believing ridiculous things, especially in the case of islamic terrorists since they are a religious group and religion is practically impossible without brainwashing, but i would be INCREDIBLY surprised if you could actually get any of these people to "realize" that the beliefs they've held strongly enough to kill people over for their entire lives aren't true. If you're willing to chase up pretty good examples (both casses and testimonials from interrogators) that your statements aren't wholly accurate, read on. Abu Jandal (as outlined by Ali Soufan and Ropert Mcfadden), Mohammad Ibahim (The key Baath Party Official who gave up Saddam's location as outlined by Eric Maddox in Mission:Black List #1) and an unnamed by key leader of the Sunni insurgency with connections to Al-Quaeda who was convinced to give up al-Zarqawi's location with soft-interrogation (as outlined by Matthew Alexander, one of the Authors of How to Break A Terrorist: The U.S Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq). All of those cover different figures with different loyalties, levels of fanatacism and indicates how much of it is brokered in real life concerns and/or stereotypes which are easiest broken by soft interrogation as opposed to torture. If anything, the fact their beleifs are so strongly hold makes the eventual breaking of the characters through soft means even more powerful - since there is no perceived bruality that can be seen as an injustice by the captive. With Abu Jandal in particular - he was a greatly feared man and hated the US captors ideologically on sight. That only meant however that when he was broken - and it was done through simple manipulation, that he was willing to give up even more information because of the shift in the foundations of his world view. | ||
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daz
Canada643 Posts
On July 09 2009 16:38 HaXxorIzed wrote: If you're willing to chase up pretty good examples (both casses and testimonials from interrogators) that your statements aren't wholly accurate, read on. Abu Jandal (as outlined by Ali Soufan and Ropert Mcfadden), Mohammad Ibahim (The key Baath Party Official who gave up Saddam's location as outlined by Eric Maddox in Mission:Black List #1) and an unnamed by key leader of the Sunni insurgency with connections to Al-Quaeda who was convinced to give up al-Zarqawi's location with soft-interrogation (as outlined by Matthew Alexander, one of the Authors of How to Break A Terrorist: The U.S Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq). All of those cover different figures with different loyalties, levels of fanatacism and indicates how much of it is brokered in real life concerns and/or stereotypes which are easiest broken by soft interrogation as opposed to torture. If anything, the fact their beleifs are so strongly hold makes the eventual breaking of the characters through soft means even more powerful - since there is no perceived bruality that can be seen as an injustice by the captive. With Abu Jandal in particular - he was a greatly feared man and hated the US captors ideologically on sight. That only meant however that when he was broken - and it was done through simple manipulation, that he was willing to give up even more information because of the shift in the foundations of his world view. i guess im willing to accept that this is possible but from my life experience and the things that i've read or heard ive found that people who hold beliefs especially religious beliefs at the fundamelist level are pretty much impervious to rational explanations and logical persuasion. i mean its pretty much a prerequisite that you are willing to ignore logic and ration to even get yourself to that point and i dont understand how to go about persuading someone who is impervious to logical thinking. I'll have to read up some of these examples that you've posted when i have more time because im seriously having a hard time imagining someone 'shifting the worldview' of a diehard religious fanatic | ||
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Eeevil
Netherlands359 Posts
Either the CIA is full of twats that think up ways to do evil to America in the name of America, or they're genuinely wrong all the time .....or they're political scapegoats sent into the desert to carry away the sins of the politicians that fucked up royally in foreign politics. ---- On July 09 2009 15:43 daz wrote: seems that waterboarding is a lot worse then i thought, so i can see why people have a problem with it. I guess to me it depends on the situation, honestly, if we take a situation like the 'war on terrorism' where there is so much covert activity, and a country like the states has to protect its own citizens and interests, i fully expect them to use torture and i honestly cant even imagine any other scenario regardless of whether its right or wrong. You assume that torture is actually a good way of extracting information. The inquisition had most of it's prisoners subjected to torture and pretty much all of them confessed of what they were accused of. So someone gets accused of being a witch, she gets tortured and admits that she's a witch and a servant of the devil. She might as well have confessed that she's a spaghetti monster. So torture is an iffy way to get intelligence at the very least. Take this situation for example, lets imagine the CIA in pakistan captures some high level al-qeida (no idea how to spell this) dude. Now this dude is obviously going to have a lot of information about what his group is doing, information about future planned terrorist attacks, and the CIA having this information would be able to prevent attacks and save lives of their citizens, as well as potentially capture other enemies. Now in this situation i dont even think its a question of what to do, in fact i would say they are OBLIGATED to do whatever is necessary to gain this information as this is their main purpose. I've never understood what is that people get all up in arms about, this is how intelligence works, every country does this, every group, faction, you name it, its pretty much unavoidable. Its not even realistic or reasonable to expect otherwise. Does intelligence work that way ? Does every country do it ? Or are you trying to rationalize an act that is obviously evil by saying the entire human herd does it. Related youtube bit + Show Spoiler + And again, how do they know that that dude is in fact a high ranking al quaida dude ? If they have found out through torturing some other guy, is the information valid ? Of course you can verify that he is an al quaida "illegal combatant" by torturing him. After you break him. He'll tell you anything you want and point out his friends as accomplices. Torture willfully inflicts harm to another person and as an instrument of getting information it is unreliable at best. This makes it both evil and useless and that's just a horrible combination. Edit:lay out | ||
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Vharox
United States1037 Posts
On July 09 2009 15:17 eXigent. wrote: you should watch a few youtube videos of people volunteering to be waterboarded. None of them last more than 15seconds before panicing and demanding to stop. Seems like torture to me. That's not true. I posted a video from youtube in the waterboarding thread where a guy goes 25 minutes. Not that its right to do it or anything. Buuut it is definitely doable for more than 15 seconds lol. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
Secondly, we've gone over this many times before, in the Geneva Conventions 'mercenaries' which is what the insurgents are, have no rights under the Geneva Conventions. Lastly, waterboarding was performed on the 3 highest ranking members of Al'Qaida, not the lowly guy strapping bombs to himself. If you don't think the 3 highest members of Al'Qaida are guilty of terrorism well, you have to believe that terrorism doesn't exist and that borders on the insane. In regards to the 'six democrats' who just now come forward with no evidence, but their word. Why would anyone believe them? Why do they not have evidence? Remember, this is all about waterboarding, you can easily blackout TS/SCI/S/C documentation enough where it doesn't give away classified information, but yet shows adequate proof to back up their claims. I think it's pretty obvious the political motivation behind this. I for one, don't believe a word from them without any substantive proof. (You would think they would disclose Panetta's testimony with corrobative evidence) The CIA has done this country a great service, especially during the Cold War. Sure, I don't agree with them starting proxy wars, and instigating and supporting coup's without the direct support of the people, but if you can point out other instances for me where the CIA has directly lied to Congress in the past I would like to see it, because in all my research I have yet to uncover anything like that. PS: You should change the title of your thread it's highly misleading. It should read 'Six Democrats claim CIA mislead them' | ||
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Cpt.beefy
Ireland799 Posts
CIA 1 There a powerful organization, Obama HAS to step in publicly. but I have little faith in US politics as of late soo...... | ||
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FragKrag
United States11554 Posts
On July 09 2009 19:24 Vharox wrote: That's not true. I posted a video from youtube in the waterboarding thread where a guy goes 25 minutes. Not that its right to do it or anything. Buuut it is definitely doable for more than 15 seconds lol. Um maybe because that person is fully prepared and has been through training? | ||
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B1nary
Canada1267 Posts
On July 09 2009 19:24 Vharox wrote: That's not true. I posted a video from youtube in the waterboarding thread where a guy goes 25 minutes. Not that its right to do it or anything. Buuut it is definitely doable for more than 15 seconds lol. Of course there are people who, either naturally or through training, can take it for longer periods, just as there are people who won't talk even if you beat them to death. But in general, people don't particularly enjoy the feeling of being drowned. | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
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dinmsab
Malaysia2246 Posts
On July 10 2009 02:20 MiniRoman wrote: Waterboarding proven to give false information anyways ~_~ What good is made up shit for the army? Well, they can use it to mislead the congress. | ||
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bdams19
United States1316 Posts
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On July 10 2009 02:20 MiniRoman wrote: Torture has proven to give false information anyways ~_~ What good is made up shit for the army? Corrected. | ||
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daz
Canada643 Posts
On July 09 2009 19:01 Eeevil wrote: The CIA takes the fall once again. Isn't it odd that when the US government fucks up it's always because they were given the wrong information rather than them making the wrong choice based on that information. 9-11, The US entering the war in Iraq and now this. Either the CIA is full of twats that think up ways to do evil to America in the name of America, or they're genuinely wrong all the time .....or they're political scapegoats sent into the desert to carry away the sins of the politicians that fucked up royally in foreign politics. ---- You assume that torture is actually a good way of extracting information. The inquisition had most of it's prisoners subjected to torture and pretty much all of them confessed of what they were accused of. So someone gets accused of being a witch, she gets tortured and admits that she's a witch and a servant of the devil. She might as well have confessed that she's a spaghetti monster. So torture is an iffy way to get intelligence at the very least. Does intelligence work that way ? Does every country do it ? Or are you trying to rationalize an act that is obviously evil by saying the entire human herd does it. Related youtube bit + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg And again, how do they know that that dude is in fact a high ranking al quaida dude ? If they have found out through torturing some other guy, is the information valid ? Of course you can verify that he is an al quaida "illegal combatant" by torturing him. After you break him. He'll tell you anything you want and point out his friends as accomplices. Torture willfully inflicts harm to another person and as an instrument of getting information it is unreliable at best. This makes it both evil and useless and that's just a horrible combination. Edit:lay out yes intelligence does work that way. Yes every country does it. This is how the world works, if all of these people are so ready and willing to kill each other to promote their interests why do you think they would be above torture? No im not trying to rationalize an evil act, i agree it is evil and i have no need to rationalize it because i dont think torture is morally right. However that doesn't change the fact that for nations/governments/political ideological groups with power who fight each other it is a necessary tool in the real world. I also fail to see how that youtube bit is relevant to any of this. And i guess your right, they cant ever really know that anybody is in fact a high ranking al quaida dude. I guess they should just let them go about their business and just fucking go home. But that would be fucking insanity. I fail to see your point. I mean have you considered that they have discovered he is a high ranking al quaida dude through information NOT obtained by torture? Are you assuming that torture is the ONLY method of gathering information that they have? If you assume that, and you still argue against torture, then you are basically saying we shouldnt even bother trying to capture these people. Now as i think some people have pointed out earlier in this thread, all of these arguments i have made only work assuming that torture IS an effective method of extracting information. I realize that this is simply an assumption and i realize that it could be wrong, and if it is then of course most of my points are invalid, however I think it is a reasonable assumption, and i make it because it the people who are actually in the business of extracting information seem to use it as a valid technique, and who am i to argue with the pros? | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
If you can legitimately answer me these questions, then you may have some semblance of relevancy and creedence. What is OSINT? What is SIGINT? What is IMINT? What is COMINT? What is ELINT? When would you employ these methods and how effective would each be against say North Korea vs Al'Qaeda in the mountains of Pakistan? Do you know what a dead drop is? I think I am the only person on these boards who actually works and studies in an intelligence capacity. The amount of ignorance displayed about actual intelligence work on this board is astonishing. Waterboarding I can assure you, accounted for less than 0.0001% of all intelligence gathered. To those questioning whether they are combatants or not, and how do we know? Well, it's quite simple when US soldier's are getting shot at and they then take them into custody (Pro tip: The Army has to go by the Army Field Interrogation Manual, which is pretty much a joke) and they then let the intelligence apparatus' take over. Lastly, we can debate the merits of waterboarding all you want whether on morality (Which, there is none in a time of war. If you think the US has held a higher moral of standard in times of war I would think twice. A little research would show you are wrong, case in point: D-Day WWII. No prisoners.) , or effectiveness. Why do you think the US let the Japanese and German scientists get off so easily after WWII? They committed untold atrocities, but the US so valued their research and it indeed proved to be useful. While disgusting as it is, when you are faced with life and death morality tends to get thrown out the window. | ||
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Trezeguet
United States2656 Posts
Torture is the biggest piece of shit ever. Also, water boarding is torture. If you don't agree, you are an idiot who feels that drowning is no worse than a stubbed toe. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On July 10 2009 04:54 Trezeguet23 wrote: The whole ticking time bomb situation thing is utter bullshit. It has never happened before and never will happen. There is not excuse to torture anyone ever. Even if we "know" they have info, if we torture them to get it, how do we know that what we have gotten from them is true? Torture is the biggest piece of shit ever. Also, water boarding is torture. If you don't agree, you are an idiot who feels that drowning is no worse than a stubbed toe. /sigh This is what I mean. How do you know the information you receive using any method is ever true? It's called VERIFICATION. Geeze. | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On July 09 2009 19:43 Aegraen wrote: Secondly, we've gone over this many times before, in the Geneva Conventions 'mercenaries' which is what the insurgents are, have no rights under the Geneva Conventions. When did desire for monetary gain become the driving force behind insurgency? And where do the words "mercenary" or "mercenaries" appear in the Geneva Conventions? | ||
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daz
Canada643 Posts
On July 10 2009 04:54 Trezeguet23 wrote: The whole ticking time bomb situation thing is utter bullshit. It has never happened before and never will happen. There is not excuse to torture anyone ever. Even if we "know" they have info, if we torture them to get it, how do we know that what we have gotten from them is true? Torture is the biggest piece of shit ever. Also, water boarding is torture. If you don't agree, you are an idiot who feels that drowning is no worse than a stubbed toe. what is such utter bullshit about it? is it so incredibly impossible to imagine that lets say one of the terrorists involved in planning 9/11 could have been captured. Why is that so impossible? Members of these organizations are being captured regularly. I think it is not only possible but in fact highly likely that some of them are involved in plans to harm the united states. I mean if they arent then what the fuck are they doing in terrorist organizations anyway. What do you think these people do all day? | ||
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