EPTOn July 11 2009 12:02 daz wrote:
he hates the US for a reason, and the reasons are his insane religious beliefs.
as for the afghan/russia war and the US involvement, how do you think afghanistan beat the russians, by throwing rocks? No they did it because the United States supplied them with arms, without those arms they wouldnt have stood a chance. im pretty sure osama bin laden isnt upset at the US for giving him the weapons they used to win the war
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On July 10 2009 17:33 Clasic wrote:
You think Bin Laden did this just for the fun of it? Because he hates the US for no reason?
lol..
It was in between the Afghan/Russian war were the US started wanting to " help " and get involved as usual..
and most of the people said " get out of our country we can handle our own problems " and of course.. the US doesn't listen and now we have the " War Against Terror " which is failing hard, just like every other US war.
On July 10 2009 16:59 daz wrote:
i think osama bin laden would disagree with you
On July 10 2009 14:32 Clasic wrote:
I'm getting the feeling that you think these ' terrorists ' are some bad people and their doing all this shit for their religion..
What you don't understand is these " terrorists " just want people from the US to gtfo of their country...
I've talked to many Iraqi men and women from my city and they tell me ALL they want is to deal with their own land and no interference.
On July 09 2009 16:46 daz wrote:
i guess im willing to accept that this is possible but from my life experience and the things that i've read or heard ive found that people who hold beliefs especially religious beliefs at the fundamelist level are pretty much impervious to rational explanations and logical persuasion. i mean its pretty much a prerequisite that you are willing to ignore logic and ration to even get yourself to that point and i dont understand how to go about persuading someone who is impervious to logical thinking. I'll have to read up some of these examples that you've posted when i have more time because im seriously having a hard time imagining someone 'shifting the worldview' of a diehard religious fanatic
On July 09 2009 16:38 HaXxorIzed wrote:
If you're willing to chase up pretty good examples (both casses and testimonials from interrogators) that your statements aren't wholly accurate, read on. Abu Jandal (as outlined by Ali Soufan and Ropert Mcfadden), Mohammad Ibahim (The key Baath Party Official who gave up Saddam's location as outlined by Eric Maddox in Mission:Black List #1) and an unnamed by key leader of the Sunni insurgency with connections to Al-Quaeda who was convinced to give up al-Zarqawi's location with soft-interrogation (as outlined by Matthew Alexander, one of the Authors of How to Break A Terrorist: The U.S Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq).
All of those cover different figures with different loyalties, levels of fanatacism and indicates how much of it is brokered in real life concerns and/or stereotypes which are easiest broken by soft interrogation as opposed to torture. If anything, the fact their beleifs are so strongly hold makes the eventual breaking of the characters through soft means even more powerful - since there is no perceived bruality that can be seen as an injustice by the captive. With Abu Jandal in particular - he was a greatly feared man and hated the US captors ideologically on sight. That only meant however that when he was broken - and it was done through simple manipulation, that he was willing to give up even more information because of the shift in the foundations of his world view.
On July 09 2009 15:48 daz wrote:
it wouldnt surprise me at all that most of these people have been brainwashed to believing ridiculous things, especially in the case of islamic terrorists since they are a religious group and religion is practically impossible without brainwashing, but i would be INCREDIBLY surprised if you could actually get any of these people to "realize" that the beliefs they've held strongly enough to kill people over for their entire lives aren't true.
it wouldnt surprise me at all that most of these people have been brainwashed to believing ridiculous things, especially in the case of islamic terrorists since they are a religious group and religion is practically impossible without brainwashing, but i would be INCREDIBLY surprised if you could actually get any of these people to "realize" that the beliefs they've held strongly enough to kill people over for their entire lives aren't true.
If you're willing to chase up pretty good examples (both casses and testimonials from interrogators) that your statements aren't wholly accurate, read on. Abu Jandal (as outlined by Ali Soufan and Ropert Mcfadden), Mohammad Ibahim (The key Baath Party Official who gave up Saddam's location as outlined by Eric Maddox in Mission:Black List #1) and an unnamed by key leader of the Sunni insurgency with connections to Al-Quaeda who was convinced to give up al-Zarqawi's location with soft-interrogation (as outlined by Matthew Alexander, one of the Authors of How to Break A Terrorist: The U.S Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq).
All of those cover different figures with different loyalties, levels of fanatacism and indicates how much of it is brokered in real life concerns and/or stereotypes which are easiest broken by soft interrogation as opposed to torture. If anything, the fact their beleifs are so strongly hold makes the eventual breaking of the characters through soft means even more powerful - since there is no perceived bruality that can be seen as an injustice by the captive. With Abu Jandal in particular - he was a greatly feared man and hated the US captors ideologically on sight. That only meant however that when he was broken - and it was done through simple manipulation, that he was willing to give up even more information because of the shift in the foundations of his world view.
i guess im willing to accept that this is possible but from my life experience and the things that i've read or heard ive found that people who hold beliefs especially religious beliefs at the fundamelist level are pretty much impervious to rational explanations and logical persuasion. i mean its pretty much a prerequisite that you are willing to ignore logic and ration to even get yourself to that point and i dont understand how to go about persuading someone who is impervious to logical thinking. I'll have to read up some of these examples that you've posted when i have more time because im seriously having a hard time imagining someone 'shifting the worldview' of a diehard religious fanatic
I'm getting the feeling that you think these ' terrorists ' are some bad people and their doing all this shit for their religion..
What you don't understand is these " terrorists " just want people from the US to gtfo of their country...
I've talked to many Iraqi men and women from my city and they tell me ALL they want is to deal with their own land and no interference.
i think osama bin laden would disagree with you
You think Bin Laden did this just for the fun of it? Because he hates the US for no reason?
lol..
It was in between the Afghan/Russian war were the US started wanting to " help " and get involved as usual..
and most of the people said " get out of our country we can handle our own problems " and of course.. the US doesn't listen and now we have the " War Against Terror " which is failing hard, just like every other US war.
he hates the US for a reason, and the reasons are his insane religious beliefs.
as for the afghan/russia war and the US involvement, how do you think afghanistan beat the russians, by throwing rocks? No they did it because the United States supplied them with arms, without those arms they wouldnt have stood a chance. im pretty sure osama bin laden isnt upset at the US for giving him the weapons they used to win the war
Stop. Oh dear god, stop while you're behind.
