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On July 03 2009 06:28 xylidine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2009 08:23 eMbrace wrote:People believe in all sorts of unbelievable things: conspiracy theories, ghosts, gods (no offense), etc... So why is it that it seems many people refuse to believe in extra terrestrial life? They have no problem defending other things that probably don't exist, but they can't accept something extremely plausible? I bet if you took a poll in the United States, more people would be believe in ghosts than aliens -- or it would be pathetically close. Earth is like 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% of the universe, and you can't even entertain the possibility for a second, that some sort of life exists somewhere else? That doesn't mean it's intelligent, or has spaceships, or lasers -- it could simply be some bacteria or microbes. No, I'll stop -- It's a ridiculous idea after all (and no this has nothing to do with the stupidity that is UFOs) Have you ever heard of the Fermi Paradox? It addresses all the possibilities. One of the most common clauses, proposed and believed by Fermi was that if the universe has been here for ~15 billion years, and assuming we were not the first organisms to have evolved this far along, then there should have been some organism that was created and evolved into higher beings since the very beginning of the universe. Given that, those organisms should have had at least 10 billion years to explore the universe. So, where are they? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox
I dunno, maybe on the other side of the universe.
Maybe civilizations more advanced figured it was more effort than useful to expand across an entire galaxy, maybe faster than light speed is completely impossible, maybe they are literally on the other side of the universe and we're just that spec in a dead zone, maybe they are avoiding us like the plague because we spend most of our time killing other humans. Who knows really?
There are plenty of possibilities but I still find the assumption that no aliens exist in the universe to be one of supreme stupidity simply because of how vast everything is.
We don't know exactly what causes species to evolve into higher live forms as there is obviously a necessary kick to involve self awareness and critical thinking. Aliens will most likely not think anything like us so maybe they just want to stay on their planet.
I still think that given the scale of the universe there has to be something else out there... and it's unlikely we'll ever see it.
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I don't understand how some people believe in Aliens and not God, or vice versa. They're essentially the same concept (if you believe in Aliens that are "more enlightened" than us).
I have no problem believing in both, personally. Based on others' negative experiences with religion, though, I don't hold it against anyone for having a different point of view.
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Not only I believe in aliens, I believe there must be wizard aliens somewhere!
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tl;dr math analogy, vastness of space / ridiculous coincidence that we are even alive infty/0.. who the fuck knows.
(lol, "whoever doesn't believe in aliens = retarded on last page. good to know pretentious intolerance thrives on the real important matters too.)
Earth is such a small piece of the universe, but also think about the incredible coincidence that Earth really is. It's not fiery hot, and its not blisteringly cold. Its got an ecosystem that self preserves. We can live because plants create oxygen. They also use our CO2 to do so. There is really a circle of life. Why are we so lucky to be able to self-sustain?
On the other hand, evolution says this was inevitable. We were given our worldly hand, and we made what we could from it. Is it really though? Look at the other planets around us. We still haven't found life there, but shouldn't evolution dictate something ought to be thriving off whatever resources they've got going on?
Lets make this analogy, considering our relative size to the universe, it should be infinitely likely that there are others out there like us. Considering the cosmic coincidence that got us here, we can divide it by something as infinitely small. The outcome is undetermined.
I think this is a naive approach to analyze the existence of extra-terrestrial life. But I'm also among those that don't believe in it since there is no proof of it. So call it naive if you want but take it with consideration of the perceived seriousness of the topic.
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On July 03 2009 07:02 0neder wrote: I don't understand how some people believe in Aliens and not God, or vice versa. They're essentially the same concept (if you believe in Aliens that are "more enlightened" than us).
I have no problem believing in both, personally. Based on others' negative experiences with religion, though, I don't hold it against anyone for having a different point of view.
I can see where you're coming from, but I don't agree. Yes, it's true that Aliens and God are both entities that we haven't been able to directly observe - hence, we must choose whether to "believe" in them or not. Furthermore, it's easy to adopt an agnostic view on both concepts.
The difference I see is that God is an entity that is presented by most religions as a "higher being", in that God is superior to humans at a fundamental level. Also, interaction between humans and God is typically taken as one-way: God can influence us but we have nothing to offer God. Aliens, on the other hand, are simply technologically superior beings who were, presumably, like humans at some point and if we're visited by aliens, we can interact.
In short, if we "discover" God, we can say to ourselves "oh cool, God exists" but if we discover Aliens, we (hopefully) interact and steal technology from them and whatnot. That's why we have radio telescopes searching for Alien signals but no technology searching for God.
Welcome to TL, btw
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Hmm I think most people believe that aliens exist, but that they have never visited earth. This is the most likely case and what I believe.
I mean statistically with the sheer number of planets in the universe it's almost impossible that aliens don't exist somewhere, but due to the immense size it's almost impossible that the necessary distances could feasibly be travelled.
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why when you can believe in aliens with no proof is it hard to believe these distances can't be travelled? You're applying something from our world(our limitations) to something necessarily out of this world.
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On July 03 2009 06:22 irishash wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2009 05:39 Jakalo wrote:On July 03 2009 05:03 irishash wrote:On July 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: obvious? what? I don't see anything wtf.
Just because there is a blurr on an image doesn't mean there is alien life there. It could be a number of reasons. 1) error 2) gov't is building shit up there (that is uknown to the public) 3) military security (also related to 2 maybe) 4) stuff that just looks questionable and they don't wanna cause a stir before they actually get a chance to check it out themselves.
etc etc , there are literaly hundreds of things it could be, and outright assuming that it is alien is completely closed minded. You have to look at all the possibilities and evidence for all of them. if you look at a photo of that same area from a more recent mission there's nothing there at all, it's been completely edited out. back when that one photo was released (1994) computer photo editing wasn't good like today. you can obviously see there's something behind the smudge in that pic, whether it's alien or not i didn't say, i just said there's something there. edit: another pic for fun http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-362/hrp76.jpg So you imply that nasa released a foto possibly containing evidence of alien life forms but being government and all they ''edited'' to prevent its citizens from revolting in terror from martians instead of simply not publishing it at all? Makes perfect sense to me, I mean government is retarded, after all it is representive of people, thanks for the reply. if you're calling me retarded, explain then how you feel as you seem to be the one falling victim to the scams the government is pulling off right in front of your eyes. a lot of people think the government is all for the people, but the people who really run the US are really just in it for themselves. whether or not you believe aliens exist or the fact nasa edited the photos to cover something up is up to you. also, if you even bothered to read my post, you'd see it pointed out that i never said anything was alien, i just said it was there. i left it up to you guys to decide what you think it is. i'm not gonna try to make anyone believe anything, and i'm certainly not going to insult anyone on whether or not they believe in something or not.
so just like he and I suggested, It could be many things and if NASA was part of the shadow gov't or some kind of conspiracy then why the fuck even release the edited photo in the first place? Hell, even the astronauts taking the pictures would have to be in on it so why would they give up the photos to anyone who is not supposed to see them. It just doesn't make sense.
btw, I don't think either of us think the 'gov't is all for the people' or 'falling victim to gov't scams' (except maybe the racquet they pull with parking tickets).
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We don't have any proof of it and we can't say that there is DEFINITELY alien life out there but we can make an educated guess that it is highly probably there is. And I know of the ridiculously unlikely chain of events that lead to our existence, but when you consider the possible trillions of earth like planets out there, at least a few of them must have had something similar to what happened here occur on them. Hell they don't even have to be intelligent beings to be considered aliens, there's probably loads of planets out there that are roamed by large dinosaur-like creatures or other various types of animals. It's likely that there were many great civilizations on planets that no longer exist as our planet is a relative newcomer to the galaxy.
As for the travelling between planets business, you're talking thousands upon thousands of light years, it's theoretically impossible to even reach the speed of light, let alone exceed it. So unless they have ships where generations live for hundreds of thousands of years or they have somehow managed to achieve the physically impossible I think we can make a well educated guess that the chance of any alien life reaching us is remote, and if they had this kind of technology why the hell would they even bother visiting this relative piece of shit planet?
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My belief is that we either are a fluke of gigantic proportions or that life flurishes(wtf spelling) all over the universe
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flourishes, and yea its a fluke We got like 5 royal flushes in a row.
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On July 03 2009 08:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: flourishes, and yea its a fluke We got like 5 royal flushes in a row.
Someplace somewhere this fluke has happened/is happening/will happen, earth is merely a precedent
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Wouldn't it be cool if our planet is the only one able to sustain life though? for now it seems cool that way
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On July 03 2009 07:55 jello_biafra wrote: Hmm I think most people believe that aliens exist, but that they have never visited earth. This is the most likely case and what I believe.
I mean statistically with the sheer number of planets in the universe it's almost impossible that aliens don't exist somewhere, but due to the immense size it's almost impossible that the necessary distances could feasibly be travelled.
Our laws of physics forbid FTL travel, but currently, there's nothing supporting the belief that we can't cover such distances with conventional propulsion. Maybe not with manned vessels, but unmanned probes is very possible based on our current knowledge of science/engineering limitations.
Edit: I suggest everyone read that Wikipedia article on the Fermi paradox. It shows that people have put ALOT of thought into justifying various 'beliefs'.
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Potentially hundreds of thousands of light years? Really? You know how damn long that's gonna take BELOW light speed?
Also I was just thinking, it was a crazy sequence of highly improbable events that lead to OUR existence, but it's highly possible that given, enough time and the right conditions, some other form of highly intelligent life form would have evolved regardless, and this could be the case on most planets that harbour life, that intelligent life is inevitable on habitable planets.
And with stuff like detecting alien radio signals, realistically with the distances involved and the noise from the CBR the only way we'd be able to pick up one of these signals would be if it was specifically sent towards our planet by the aliens.
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Toy Universe may solve mystery of life's origins.
+ Show Spoiler +The power of computer processing could one day solve the riddle of life's origin.
Scientists think life appeared about 4 billion years ago, and ancient rocks on Earth can give us some idea of what the environment was like. Life may have originated in an ocean rich in chemicals. This primordial soup may have been simmering, or it may have been zapped by lightning. Certainly energy of some sort must have helped drive a simple chemical system into a more complex state. But the clues are few, and the picture remains hazy.
Enter the Evogrid, a computer creation concept that would be a digital version of the primordial soup. The EvoGrid was dreamed up by a group of international advisors and Bruce Damer, the founder of a research company that creates 3-D spacecraft and mission simulations for NASA and the space community. Damer and his chief architect, Peter Newman, are developing the EvoGrid concept by adapting GROMACS, a powerful open source molecular dynamics simulator originally developed at The University of Groningen in the Netherlands. Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here
Each virtual particle within the Evogrid's simulated liquid soup will have particular physical properties, and will behave accordingly.
"We will be constructing a model of a 'toy universe,' which has approximate properties of the early oceans on Earth," says Damer.
Cooking creation With a laundry list of basic physical properties entered into the starting parameters, the simulation would allow artificial nature to take its course. Interactions and connections between particles should occur, and ever higher levels of complexity may arise from the most basic elements.
Much like SETI@home's screen saver, which enables computers at home to search for signals of extraterrestrial life within volumes of astrophysical data, the Evogrid is conceived to have volunteer computers become part of an interconnected grid for maximum processing capacity. Damer hopes to eventually get a million computers hooked into the grid.
These computers would receive data from the EvoGrid simulation engine. The simulation would essentially consist of a vast virtual ocean of interacting numbers that would model the time before complex life forms emerged. To know whether self-organization is occurring, the program would look for persistent patterns within the data.
"If a vesicle, or a ball of particles has formed, you would be able to detect that," says Damer. "If a string of particles began to replicate, that would be easy to track, or if particles began to combine in a long chain of reactions, that would be important but tougher to recognize."
INTERACTIVE Image: Ancient marijuana Weirdest science of 2008 Far out, man! Check out the tales of ancient marijuana use, four-eared cats and other Weird Science Award winners. It is thought that some combination of a lipid container (vesicle), strings of molecules (genomes) and metabolic reactions led to the development of life. The Evogrid won't produce visual images of the combined effort of all the linked computers, because it would slow the processing down too much. However, home users would see a visualization of what is being observed in their own small patch of the EvoGrid.
Damer notes that present-day computer simulations run much more slowly than chemical reactions, but he anticipates that in the next 20 to 40 years, with the help of millions of microprocessors, an entire cell could be simulated in cyberspace.
"Nils Baricelli wrote an artificial life program for the first modern computer in 1953, and to some extent we haven't gone much further than his original experiment," says Damer. "We shall see how far the EvoGrid can go, using millions of the descendents of the original Von Neumann machine."
Tinkering with life Damer envisions two possible versions of Evogrid: a hands-off "Origins" version, and an experimental "Intelligent Designer" edition that would allow people to tinker with the simulation. Damer says the ID edition of Evogrid could include a "miracle module" that would allow users to play God in their attempts to create proto-life. The Origins edition would be the focus of the science, however, with strict controls to shield the experiment from any guiding human influence.
Damer muses that "in its ultimate incarnation, a much more powerful EvoGrid would allow us to pose the question: where in this universe or others might life exist and at what level of complexity?" Damer thinks an EvoGrid tuned for SETI and astrobiology could be used to simulate extraterrestrial environments and address the question of whether life could have emerged there.
Even if the EvoGrid managed to generate some virtual but convincing life forms, either through random or directed means, "the numbers will always be numbers," says Damer. "As Baricelli wrote over fifty years ago, they will never be living organisms."
But Damer dreams big, and he thinks someday the creatures generated by the Evogrid could be re-created chemically. A virtual scanner could be devised to break down the computer-based creature into its digital body parts, and then that information could be used to try to build the same creature out of real chemistry in the lab. Of course, this step of the experiment would rely on technology that does not currently exist. "Life is more than the sum of its parts, and you can't just throw the necessary chemicals together and expect a life form to emerge," Damer says.
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However, researchers are hard at work trying to recreate all the biochemical steps necessary to synthesize a kind of proto-life in the lab, so perhaps this possibility is not too far over the horizon.
Looking even farther into the future, Damer thinks that far more advanced EvoGrids, paired with "ChemoGrids," could be used to create a new genesis of cyber-physical life forms to colonize asteroids, or to terraform Mars into a more habitable planet for humans. Freeman Dyson, who is now an advisor for the EvoGrid project, popularized this concept, and Damer notes that "evolution within an adaptively-tuned living system is the only mechanism powerful enough to make a place outside of the Earth habitable for us."
He expects that other intelligent civilizations in the universe probably harness the power of evolution to solve difficult problems such as creating habitable zones to colonize. "This is a common theme in science fiction, but science fiction tells us what could be possible someday," he adds. "The way for us to get there is to start with simulation and ride the wave of ever greater computing power." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31710634/ns/technology_and_science-science/
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It will take millions of years, but we have to change our standards of time when it comes to space travel. It's not like I can launch a probe today and have it report back to me with alien life tomorrow. Currently, the most feasible model for space exploration is self-replicating probes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_spacecraft
This is, of course, going under the assumption that a millions years is a short time relative to the span of a very advanced alien civilization.
If we take the series of events that lead to our inception as probabilistic (is that even a word?) events, then sure, life is inevitable on habitable planets. Unfortunately, we have no way of measuring or calculating these probabilities so all we can do right now is guess.
Edit: after reading the last post, I guess we will be able to measure the probability o_O
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I so want to say troll... But considering there are a lot of people actually discussion this topic... GUESS NOT
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On July 03 2009 08:26 B1nary wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2009 07:55 jello_biafra wrote: Hmm I think most people believe that aliens exist, but that they have never visited earth. This is the most likely case and what I believe.
I mean statistically with the sheer number of planets in the universe it's almost impossible that aliens don't exist somewhere, but due to the immense size it's almost impossible that the necessary distances could feasibly be travelled. Our laws of physics forbid FTL travel, but currently, there's nothing supporting the belief that we can't cover such distances with conventional propulsion. Maybe not with manned vessels, but unmanned probes is very possible based on our current knowledge of science/engineering limitations. Edit: I suggest everyone read that Wikipedia article on the Fermi paradox. It shows that people have put ALOT of thought into justifying various 'beliefs'.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403383,00.html
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On July 03 2009 08:23 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2009 08:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: flourishes, and yea its a fluke We got like 5 royal flushes in a row. Someplace somewhere this fluke has happened/is happening/will happen, earth is merely a precedent one can not know that, we have absolutely no way of knowing that. We could might aswell be all alone, But I dont belive that, iam quite more for the option that life(including intelligent life exists in many(kind of funny word considering how big the fucking universe is) places in the universe
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