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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8103292.stm
The official result in Iran's disputed presidential election could plausibly reflect the will of the people, a group of international pollsters says.
An independent poll three weeks ago had Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ahead of his closest rival by a similar 2:1 ratio.
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United States22883 Posts
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jun/15/iran-election-polling
There's another poll for you.
The election results in Iran may reflect the will of the Iranian people. Many experts are claiming that the margin of victory of incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was the result of fraud or manipulation, but our nationwide public opinion survey of Iranians three weeks before the vote showed Ahmadinejad leading by a more than 2 to 1 margin – greater than his actual apparent margin of victory in Friday's election.
While western news reports from Tehran in the days leading up to the voting portrayed an Iranian public enthusiastic about Ahmadinejad's principal opponent, Mir Hossein Mousavi, our scientific sampling from across all 30 of Iran's provinces showed Ahmadinejad well ahead.
Independent and uncensored nationwide surveys of Iran are rare. Typically, pre-election polls there are either conducted or monitored by the government and are notoriously untrustworthy. By contrast, the poll undertaken by our nonprofit organisations from 11 May to 20 May was the third in a series over the past two years. Conducted by telephone from a neighbouring country, field work was carried out in Farsi by a polling company whose work in the region for ABC News and the BBC has received an Emmy award. Our polling was funded by the Rockefeller Brothers Fund.
The breadth of Ahmadinejad's support was apparent in our pre-election survey. During the campaign, for instance, Mousavi emphasised his identity as an Azeri, the second-largest ethnic group in Iran after Persians, to woo Azeri voters. Our survey indicated, though, that Azeris favoured Ahmadinejad by 2 to 1 over Mousavi.
Much commentary has portrayed Iranian youth and the internet as harbingers of change in this election. But our poll found that only a third of Iranians even have access to the internet, while 18-to-24-year-olds comprised the strongest voting bloc for Ahmadinejad of all age groups.
The only demographic groups in which our survey found Mousavi leading or competitive with Ahmadinejad were university students and graduates, and the highest-income Iranians. When our poll was taken, almost a third of Iranians were also still undecided. Yet the baseline distributions we found then mirror the results reported by the Iranian authorities, indicating the possibility that the vote is not the product of widespread fraud.
Politico wraps it all up quite nicely. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/23745.html
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Lol, Iran might be bad but what I see from American police and military force in terms of suppressing dissent is pretty much the same. America is just smoother in it's approach. The sheep are loving their chains and claiming they represent their freedom.
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"CFI 1. I wonder if Admiral Shamkhani makes a move tomorrow, marines already prevent IRG from arresting him. he's also a war hero & ex-def minister.half a minute ago from web"
what kind of move, huh? this is a interesting post
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On June 17 2009 09:10 frankbg wrote: Lol, Iran might be bad but what I see from American police and military force in terms of suppressing dissent is pretty much the same. America is just smoother in it's approach. The sheep are loving their chains and claiming they represent their freedom.
You obviously see nothing from America
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On June 17 2009 09:12 choboPEon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2009 09:10 frankbg wrote: Lol, Iran might be bad but what I see from American police and military force in terms of suppressing dissent is pretty much the same. America is just smoother in it's approach. The sheep are loving their chains and claiming they represent their freedom. You obviously see nothing from America I think you need to take off your rose-colored glasses. Every reports coming out of the United States in the last few years have been indicating a decline in press freedom and increase in police abuse of political protests.
Sure, you don't shoot the protesters down but you charge them just as easily. The only way you can protest in the U.S. without getting in trouble is if you walk on the sidewalk. Maybe you should go to one of these protest sometime and see that your country isn't all that much greater than Iran when freedom is regarded.
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I think you need to take off your rose-colored glasses. Every reports coming out of the United States in the last few years have been indicating a decline in press freedom and increase in police abuse of political protests.
Sure, you don't shoot the protesters down but you charge them just as easily. The only way you can protest in the U.S. without getting in trouble is if you walk on the sidewalk. Maybe you should go to one of these protest sometime and see that your country isn't all that much greater than Iran when freedom is regarded.
are you basically insinuating that there is no difference between the US and Iran ? Comon, you can't be serious.
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god dont drag this thread off topic with trying to compare the U.S and Iran. Go start another thread for that shit.
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people are asked to keep their cells off when protesting as their number can be identified by intelligence ministry. #iranelection
The most circulated email today was asking people to keep their door open for those escaping from riot police #iranelection
5:15am, we're ready to go checking out university & Dorms. masood suggested karoubi's party HQ will be a good & safe place to get some news
Government people are wearing green shirts destroying public properties at night & filming them & they all wear the same shirt!
new round of effort by Ministry of Intelligence&National Security to locate/arrest internet activists. #iranelection
EDIT: UPDATE #1
Old news most likely but http://tehranbureau.com/ is back up after a govt DOS attack.
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On June 17 2009 09:10 frankbg wrote: Lol, Iran might be bad but what I see from American police and military force in terms of suppressing dissent is pretty much the same. America is just smoother in it's approach. The sheep are loving their chains and claiming they represent their freedom.
yeah, arresting opposition party members and shutting off news websites to the country happens all the time in the US 
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On June 17 2009 07:26 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2009 06:15 Jibba wrote: I find it amusing that people who never paid any attention to Iran before (and probably still can't find Tehran on a map) are name dropping like crazy, and acting as if they understand the inner workings of Iranian domestic politics more than a poli sci grad student specializing on Iran. LR's post is especially ridiculous. Oh, you've got a friend and/or relatives of Iranian descent? Yeah, that doesn't mean shit.
And Glaucus is a pretty obvious troll. That should've been clear to everyone by post #4. While not an expert on the matter, I consider myself fairly well read in general; I can identify most national capitals tyvm and have at least basic understanding of most international politics [being a student of the 2nd-best political science program in the nation]. I am not some ignorant punk just mouthing off about anything and everything. I only used that reference to explain how I can understand Farsi-written sources despite not knowing the language myself. Don't give me that shit.
1) Being "well read" doesn't make you an expert, or even qualified to be in an informed discussion about Iranian politics
2) What does knowing national capitals and having a basic understand of international politics have to do with this? We're talking specifically about Iranian politics here.
3) What does being a student in Cal's poli sci program mean? Are you somehow better or more qualified than me because your school is ranked 2nd and mine is ranked 6th? Have you written a 100 page thesis on Iran? How many books specifically have you read about Iranian politics? How often do you read Iranian news sites, and how often do you ask your Iranian best friend "hey what's the latest goings on in Iran?" I bet the answer to those questions are No, None, and Rarely.
Just because you can look at a few random websites and find some numbers and try to insinuate that they make claims and you're somehow more qualified than me to know what you're talking about is pretty insulting, especially since I'm graduated with honors and literally spent the entire year learning about Iran in depth, etc etc (I've already said my qualifications). Just because I'm not quoting random websites doesn't mean I'm pulling these things out of my ass.
Obviously nobody in this thread is supposed to take my word as law, but at least look at it from a logical perspective and perhaps you can see I'm making reasoned and logical posts. Funny how until someone with a red-bolded name criticized me not many other people in this thread were doing it. Red names don't make you an authority on a subject.
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Ayatollah Montazeri is now supporting a split in votes.
No one in their right mind can believe" the official results from Friday's contest, Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri said of the landslide victory claimed by Ahmadinejad
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iran/story/70155.html
"A government not respecting people's vote has no religious or political legitimacy," he declared in comments on his official Web site. "I ask the police and army personals (personnel) not to 'sell their religion,' and beware that receiving orders will not excuse them before God."
This just add fire to the rumors that there is a split between the senior Ayatollah's. Whether this will change anything is anybody's guess.
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GOd Stealthblue thx for the many updates you are giving, i have been following these news since the very start!
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Montazeri has been anti Khamenei for quite awhile, especially because he and many other Ayatollah's believe that Khamenei doesn't have the religious qualifications to really be qualified to be the Supreme Leader. He was actually never an Ayatollah (Khamenei), Khomeini just made him the next Supreme Leader because he didn't feel anyone else was fit for it (or anybody that he thought would continue with his policies, etc)
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On June 17 2009 11:06 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2009 07:26 Last Romantic wrote:On June 17 2009 06:15 Jibba wrote: I find it amusing that people who never paid any attention to Iran before (and probably still can't find Tehran on a map) are name dropping like crazy, and acting as if they understand the inner workings of Iranian domestic politics more than a poli sci grad student specializing on Iran. LR's post is especially ridiculous. Oh, you've got a friend and/or relatives of Iranian descent? Yeah, that doesn't mean shit.
And Glaucus is a pretty obvious troll. That should've been clear to everyone by post #4. While not an expert on the matter, I consider myself fairly well read in general; I can identify most national capitals tyvm and have at least basic understanding of most international politics [being a student of the 2nd-best political science program in the nation]. I am not some ignorant punk just mouthing off about anything and everything. I only used that reference to explain how I can understand Farsi-written sources despite not knowing the language myself. Don't give me that shit. 1) Being "well read" doesn't make you an expert, or even qualified to be in an informed discussion about Iranian politics 2) What does knowing national capitals and having a basic understand of international politics have to do with this? We're talking specifically about Iranian politics here. 3) What does being a student in Cal's poli sci program mean? Are you somehow better or more qualified than me because your school is ranked 2nd and mine is ranked 6th? Have you written a 100 page thesis on Iran? How many books specifically have you read about Iranian politics? How often do you read Iranian news sites, and how often do you ask your Iranian best friend "hey what's the latest goings on in Iran?" I bet the answer to those questions are No, None, and Rarely. Just because you can look at a few random websites and find some numbers and try to insinuate that they make claims and you're somehow more qualified than me to know what you're talking about is pretty insulting, especially since I'm graduated with honors and literally spent the entire year learning about Iran in depth, etc etc (I've already said my qualifications). Just because I'm not quoting random websites doesn't mean I'm pulling these things out of my ass. Obviously nobody in this thread is supposed to take my word as law, but at least look at it from a logical perspective and perhaps you can see I'm making reasoned and logical posts. Funny how until someone with a red-bolded name criticized me not many other people in this thread were doing it. Red names don't make you an authority on a subject.
So you spent a year learning about Iran, in depth even! Yet all you can say is, the poll is not rigged, even though it clearly is. You should know Mr Scholar that if you do not give a source for anything you say, you actually did pull it out of your ass. You aren't making any logical posts other than: "Look guys I'm from Iran, my word is better than yours, therefore you are wrong." I've stopped reading your posts at one point, because you are painfully annoying, stubborn and bland.
It's even hilarious that you read LastRomantics post as a criticism to you, whilst it clearly was a response to another person asking him questions. He never said knowing the capital of Iran had anything to do with anything, yet you perceive it as such.
To be honest though, my post is biased. I never liked you anyway, so whatever I said is wrong.
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Oh yeah, nice work Stealth. Makes everything much easier to follow to a certain extend.
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United States22883 Posts
I feel like half the people in this thread wouldn't pass Philosophy 101 because they're completely failing to comprehend the difference between positive and negative statements. Right now, there is a lack of evidence upon which to make a reasonable inference that the election was rigged. Does that mean the election was fair? No. But it means that with the current evidence and using logic (real logic, as in "if p, then q"; not an internet user's idea of being "logical") you can't make a sound judgment on the legitimacy of the election.
Crap like "but this happened before" or "they lost their hometown" (which happens in the US all the time, btw) or even pointing towards the horribly mishandled reaction by the government all amount to weak circumstantial evidence to build a theory on. In a court of law, you need forensic evidence to make use of circumstantial evidence, and right now there is none. None of you would ever submit a university paper with this weak of logical underpinnings, so what allows you to claim these elections are "obviously rigged?"
The speed of the vote count raises concern, but that's merely questionable. It is not proof.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
just a few musings from an old man,
- an important factor in the Iranian elections (like in many other nations lately) is communication among people these days: it is getting harder and harder to maintain power using old methods, or for that matter commit injustice in private and out of the public eye, for this we have to thank the internet. - Iran has currently over 24 million internet users (a third of its population), the number has doubled almost on a yearly basis, and the vast majority of its population is under 25. There are as many Iranians with internet access that than all the other countries in the Middle East combined (Including Israel). It is the urban youth that has the greatest access and internet use.
- the youth has very different perspectives than the establishment in Iran. And, when the youth becomes politically active, change comes, sooner or later (this last sentence goes for any other nation too).
- to everything else that is going on one must add a budget of over 400 million US$ specifically assigned to undermine religious authority in Iran, all ongoing for years, eventually it will bring about results in one form or another (and I am not even go into the alleged covert operations by Israel and Saudi Arabia in Iran).
- so yeah, a lot is going on and I doubt anyone will ever have the last word on this subject..
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