|
Upon reading the thread,
On May 24 2009 03:35 Kennigit wrote:
Spending time in the military was the best decision i ever made. Even though i knew i didn't want to do it long term, it made me into a much stronger person and i developed so many new skills that i would have never had exposure to had i not joined up. If you want to start raping life i would highly recommend it.
is the post I agree with the most. Although I can't speak in the past tense like Mr. Kennigit, this is sortof the way I think I'll look back on it.
|
On May 25 2009 11:35 aLt)nirvana wrote:
No it wasted 2 years of my life. and now its wasting 2 years of duckies life
sure we all learn stuff in army but the things learnt could have been learn so much more efficiently and faster just by doing something productive within that 2 years.
I think there is alot of difference between a conscripted army and a professional one. Many of my friends came out of conscripted army said it was a waste of time, thats because most of the stuff they teaches you in a conscript army are only the basic, why bother spend extra money on investing advance skills when your just gonna bugger off in 2 years.
|
yea and to add on to what furymonkey says.. if it wasnt mandatory army could be a great thing as it would attract the people with the right mentality and approach to it
alot of people here dread the army (especially top gamers) and end up being clerks which results in a lose + lose situation. lose for the army as it becomes poor use of resources (reluctant workers) + wasted salary and lose for the gamers cause u end up with individuals with high capability doing meanial tasks for 2 years when they could be out stimulating the economy thru working / making their own companies etc.
i think army def is important in south korea because of all the tensions but in most coutnries like singapore with the rapid advancement of technology and weapons - infantry isnt as important as before. army was very impt when singapore seperated from malaysia in the 1960s compared to a much lesser degree now.
im sure in the future theres going to be a change (they already reduced the term from 2.5 to 2 years) as it will just allow the government to use their resources better
|
On May 23 2009 17:32 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
For many people, the army provides a certain strict discipline and guidance severely lacking in home life. There's male bonding, learning to deal with authority, performance under pressure, etc.
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world. You can get all that from studying too. Except physical training of course.
Studying what? I've studied as much as anyone here and I'm not seeing the relation between the two.
Trust me, nothing but discipline gets you through the days with minimal sleep to keep staring at a sheet of paper for hours.
bonding comes from studying with other people. At one point or another you will need to develop this in your studies or professional life.
I don't see how dealing with authority is a good thing, but yeah you do when you see your exam corrected hahaha.
It seems you had awful learning experiences from your post
I had a great learning experience in that I enjoyed my classes and controlled the curve. I was always very strong in school, but I didn't have any study partners. People don't manage their time very well and I don't have 3 hours to burn bullshitting about stuff that isn't going to be on the exam.
I'd choose school over military anyday, but I don't think you get the same skills out of both of them.
|
Thanks for the responses, it's really interesting to see what people from other places have to say and the difference in mindset of a conscripted army vs a voluntary one.
Anyway, I realise my OP was kind of vague, so to give some concrete examples of how the army helped me:
1. Discipline - not in the sense that you just follow orders. What is discipline? Discipline is DOING THINGS YOU SHOULD DO, BUT DON'T WANT TO. The army makes people do a lot of that, I think, from keeping their bunks clean to eating what they should eat to exercising the way they should exercise.
I don't think my experience was as bad as most people's, but I know that it showed me what I was capable of. And you come out of something tough and you realise it wasn't especially special either, because everyone was doing it and everyone is still alive. That kind of mindset made me question a lot of things I used to think were too tough to do, or couldn't be bothered to try to do.
2. Gave me time to think about my career. This probably isn't a big deal for some cultures, but in Singapore, the normal route for women is to go through non stop studying from 4 (kindergarten) to 21 (university). At 18, after my A levels, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I didn't even know that the job I'm currently in existed. If I was British or American I might have thought about taking a gap year, but such a thing doesn't exist in Singapore. I really didn't want to go to the army, I hated the thought, but after 2.5 years (which was a whole lot longer than I had to be in, if you ask me) in there, I came out with a much better idea of who I was and what I wanted to do. I don't think that is purely due to the army, but it's fair to say that if not for the army, I would not have had the chance to think about what I wanted in life. I would definitely not have had my current job.
Besides, I was asked to do a video for my brigade and that's when I realised that while production work is tougher than going out into the jungle, it was the kind of thing I wanted to make a career out of.
3. Meeting different people - I'm ashamed to admit this, but I was a middle class snob before. It wasn't deliberate, but since I went to the kind of schools that middle class people go to, I was totally clueless about everyone else. Then I go to the army and I meet these two guys. One of them was a school dropout who worked part time jobs until he could afford a motorcycle. His dream was to upgrade it to something better. Seems like a stupid dream, but he was proud of it because he had bought the bike (and the lessons) with his own money while supporting his mother. And there was another guy who was also a school dropout who used to run a small business selling recycled printer cartridges. He had to close it down when he got conscripted.
I suddenly felt pathetic, since I had never worked for my own money and complained bitterly about joining the army when so many other people were leaving so much more behind. What did I leave behind when I joined the army anyway? Nothing really important. I would not have had that experience outside the army, that's for sure.
That really made me decide to do something worthwhile with my life that I could be proud of, and I owe that to the army.
But with all that said, 2.5 years is really, really long! I wouldn't go so far as to say that "everyone should try it" either. I mean, by that logic everyone should try everything, from being a progamer to climbing Mount Everest.
|
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed
that being said... though it is time that eventually lead to any1 and every1 developing and maturing, the army helped you just like how traveling would have helped another person, studying would have helped another, working would have helped yet another, etc
|
rofl at the idiots minimizing the positive impacts. reeks of unqualified bias.
|
On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed
I'm sorry but you've completely contradicted yourself in the bolded sentences.
|
On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed
that being said... though it is time that eventually lead to any1 and every1 developing and maturing, the army helped you just like how traveling would have helped another person, studying would have helped another, working would have helped yet another, etc
Well sure, I totally agree that someone else might have got the same experience from somewhere else. I'm just curious to know what benefits/problems different armies have given different people. If someone says Starcraft helped his hand eye coordination, it doesn't really help to say that he could have got the same thing from ninja training.
My point is that given my situation at the time, the army was the only thing that could have helped me. That's especially true because it introduced me to things I never thought about, and you can't look for what you don't know, it has to be introduced.
|
On May 25 2009 12:51 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed I'm sorry but you've completely contradicted yourself in the bolded sentences.
i dont see any contradiction
|
On May 25 2009 07:54 Physician wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 07:20 Savio wrote:
I am sure "warresisters.org" is a great site for objective data about military spending. /end_sarcasm They used http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/index.html to come up with that pie chart. Savio your posting charts that include trust funds (e.g. social security) and the expenses of past military spending are not distinguished from nonmilitary spending. I posted a pie chart of were your "income tax" goes. The figures are federal funds, which do not include trust funds, such as social security, that are raised and spent separately from income taxes. The government practice of combining trust and federal funds began during the Vietnam War, thus making the human needs portion of the budget seem larger and the military portion smaller. Instead of dismissing something, try paying attention and understand how they came up with that pie chart.
You are trying to see a difference between social security taxes and income taxes that doesn't really exist. In both cases, the government is taking money from you. That is a tax. You can't just look at "income tax" and think you are getting an accurate picture of how much the government is taxing the nation.
Government Revenue:
44% Individual Income Taxes
37% Social Security and Retirement Taxes
12% Corporate Income Taxes
3% Excise/Sales and Use Taxes
4% Other
You wouldn't even be looking at half of government total revenue. So of course a site like "warresisters.org" is going to pick the definition of government revenue that is as narrow as they can make it while their definition of military spending as broad as they make it. The fact that the original data came from a reputable source does not mean that their representation of it tells anything even close to the whole truth.
EDIT:
Also that site is obviously showing the data in a way to make military spending look unrealistically big. "“Past military” represents veterans’ benefits plus 80% of the interest on the debt.* " It sounds like they are taking all of these old veterans health costs and just calling them "past military expenses" rather than calling them "medicare for old people" (as if the government wouldn't be paying for them anyway). And then, they are also including 80% of the national debt interest payments as "past military" because "we believe if there had been no military spending most (if not all) of the national debt would have been eliminated." Talk about making up your own little reality to suit your political needs. Nobody knows what the debt would have been in an alternate universe without wars. If WW2 had not run the debt up high, then who is to say that politicians wouldn't have felt as restrained by the already large debt and run it up? They are creating a reality by removing 1 important factor and assuming no other factor would change in the least.
Anyway, that's all I have to say about your site. I don't think it is worth any more of my time looking at their "methods" of presenting reality.
|
This is basically in response to a subject of the OP and I have no intention of reading responses to what I say for the most part. This is because I am not willing to bother with the flaming situation that plagues so many threads in general with political overtones.
First, I have never served in the armed forces, so this is civilian perspective. I have, however, met many people, some of whom I know well, who have served. I must also preface by saying that this is an American perspective, which may well not be the norm internationally.
I feel that in terms of maturity specifically, military service has no effect. It may offer discipline, which can be part of maturity. I find that many servicemen/women are less mature than others of their age. I would attribute this phenomenon to leaping out of normal social situations into something totally foreign and then being reintroduced to that society. Upon return, I know many mid twenties who act like high-schoolers. Maturity is gauged by society, and by normalcy within that environment. In this sense, I do not think that maturity is gained. In fact, in terms of age in society, I think it may detriment maturity.
EDIT: formatting for clarity.
|
Physician
United States4146 Posts
On May 23 2009 17:12 The Storyteller wrote:
It really kills me to admit this, but yeah, the army has made me a better person.
I think in general if you have the right attitude any experience helps you grow & become a better person, whether it be the military, university or even the lowliest of jobs/positions..
-----
savio reply ; ) - + Show Spoiler +On May 25 2009 00:35 Physician wrote:What has the army done for you? I am not sure, but it is particularly expensive in the US. (federal funds pie chart; 54% of US federal income tax goes to military use) http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm - how hard is it to understand? sigh.. "You can't just look at "income tax" and think you are getting an accurate picture of how much the government is taxing the nation."Who said anything about "how much the government is taxing the nation"? Or that from looking at the "income tax" I can get that answer? YOU. Not me. Did you read the original post? Doesn't it clearly say 54% of US federal income tax goes to military use? Doesn't it give a link with the total military expenditure of the US? Did I not say I found it particularly expensive in the US? You make conclusions about what I did NOT say so you can say oh wait that's wrong. Savio, ur name really should be Bulo. (I doubt you'll get it though). + Show Spoiler +including 80% of the national debt interest payments as "past military" - u finally checked the site lol..
- u misread again though, it says "Past military represents veterans’ benefits plus 80% of the interest on the debt." - and with good reason too, keep reading you might actually learn a thing or two and understand how they came up with that pie chart. They even put the % the other side claims (50% not 80%). The veterans benefits is not the bulk of that particular slice but it is the interest of the debt that has sky rocketed in these last 2 wars, and that even your children will be paying for...
- did you know for example that not all military spending is done by the department of defense? e.g. the department of energy is responsible for nuclear weapons, I didn't.
|
On May 25 2009 00:03 Xenixx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 14:30 baal wrote:On May 24 2009 10:38 Xenixx wrote:On May 24 2009 06:22 VIB wrote:
Are some people actually citing the discipline you learn from the army as a positive side? You learn to obey without questioning and that is a good thing?
A corrupt politician says sit, you sit. He says play dead, you play dead. He says attack that random country who is my economical enemy so I make more $, you attack that random country who is his economical enemy so he makes more $. He says waterboard these guys who have some valuable information because I told you so, you waterboard those guys who have some valuable information because he told you so.
Without ever questioning if any of those could possibly be wrong. It's your orders, you just obey orders. Just like a trained dog... and that is a good thing?
Is that the discipline you want your kids to learn? "Be a dog my son, you should learn something from Spike, he never has an opinion!" Why not go to a dog training center instead of the army? I bet the food is better. You don't understand discipline. You're confusing it with obedience. exactly, the army does not teach discipline, it teaches will submission and total obedience that develops in a stockholm syndrome and pavlov's conditioning even to the most simple tasks. Sure it promotes comradely but that is because a group of males is subjective to severe distress and this bond is the natural reaction as a human, but that does not turn the whole experience as good, its the same as if you subjected many males to imprisonment and torture, they would bond in an alike fashion, but it doesnt mean its a good thing. wat, once again your expertise is ban-worthy because its so clueless. any idea what you're saying? you try to say that you will have comraderie using the example of prison and torture but that may be the most retarded thing I've ever heard, GOOD JOB. discipline is different than obedience, discipline has many facets, obedience I think is just the one "they would bond in an alike fasion" - bruh, you have no idea what you are talking about, we've already discussed how you NEVER bring any reinforcement to your arguments, you're just raw opinion, no education, no experience, save yourself your next ban and educate yourself hercules.
Way to not debate, refute or discuss ANY of my points, and my bans are because i insult and swear to people... you cunt.
Yes, i already said that discipline is different than obedience thank you, the army teaches OBEDIENCE, the army doesnt encourage you to on your own will do stuff, it encourages you to do stuff because they order to... that my friend is obedience not discipline.
I dont know what you are debating about the second point, if you knew a little bit about psychology you would know that when humans are in contact and are subject of strong prologed distress, the subjects create strong emotional bonds, it is a self defense mechanism to make it through the rough times.
I hope you dont even reply, you are clearly not smart enough to discuss this.
|
On May 25 2009 13:40 29 fps wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 12:51 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed I'm sorry but you've completely contradicted yourself in the bolded sentences. i dont see any contradiction
It doesn't matter what you experience but people mature because of their experiences?
|
On May 25 2009 20:02 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 13:40 29 fps wrote:On May 25 2009 12:51 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed I'm sorry but you've completely contradicted yourself in the bolded sentences. i dont see any contradiction It doesn't matter what you experience but people mature because of their experiences?
...whatever the experiences happen to be.
You dont have to go to army to be a able to exercise and keep your bed clean
|
On May 25 2009 20:21 MuR)Ernu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 20:02 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On May 25 2009 13:40 29 fps wrote:On May 25 2009 12:51 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed I'm sorry but you've completely contradicted yourself in the bolded sentences. i dont see any contradiction It doesn't matter what you experience but people mature because of their experiences? ...whatever the experiences happen to be. You dont have to go to army to be a able to exercise and keep your bed clean
It's a valid point, but for a lot of people it can be the kick in the pants that they need. I know that I would definitely still be a lazy fuck if I hadn't joined; I'm sure that there are lots of people who could push themselves but I never really had the motivation until now.
|
I've never been in the army but I agree with a lot of the benefits that people have mentioned.
I myself am a lazy-ass fuck, and without any outside motivation cannot be disciplined at all. I am sure the rigor and obedience that is demanded by the army would help me discipline myself. Also, it would be totally different experience for me, from which I believe I would learn a lot.
I disagree with a lot of the reasons wars are fought for, but that doesn't mean that being in the army is necessarily bad thing for an individual's future..
|
Fun Fact: You should thank the military for the protection of the citizenry. We do the hard work so you can live the cush life. Show some respect.
I don't really get this - i think it's bullshit to be honest. In the early 1930's i would join the service to get training in combat seeing how it was pretty obvious the world was on the brink of war.
During the 50's i would have done the same for the same reasons.
Currently in 2009 - i think i'm doing the world a better favour as a civilian doctor than as some uniform filler with the purpose to what - scare off attackers? Todays attackers will remain terrorists, not conventional armed forces and in the face of such a threat, clinical services will still be of better service IMO.
If China makes a real threat about Taiwan - that'll be my call to enlist as most likely we'll have a world war in <5 years and i need training to help out as a medic - but anything short of that i think the best weapon against foreign threats is civil pride and civil achievements. Let's build something beautiful rather than wall in a system that can't even look after its own (Katrina) - more CIVIL, not military service required!
|
The only reason I would join the army would be to pay for college. Although, isn't student loans enough? Can someone clarify this?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.warresisters.org/pages/images/pieFY09.gif)
