EPTMaybe the emphasis should not be on his age, but rather on if the families feel some type of closure by the decision?
89 y/o accused of 29k counts accessory to murder - Page 18
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Crais
Canada2136 Posts
Maybe the emphasis should not be on his age, but rather on if the families feel some type of closure by the decision? | ||
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Muffinman53
571 Posts
On May 12 2011 23:53 Popss wrote: There's a big line between war and systematic genocide of civilians. I'm not at all standing up for Nazi Germany...all I'm saying is: The allies systematically carpet bombed population centers all over Europe. Russia systematically killed just as many civilians as Germany. In WWII, systematic genocide seems pretty closely linked to the war. I don't see this big line. | ||
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Moletrap
United States1297 Posts
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
Ugh just noticed the red op ;f | ||
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Popss
Sweden176 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:54 Muffinman53 wrote: I'm not at all standing up for Nazi Germany...all I'm saying is: The allies systematically carpet bombed population centers all over Europe. Russia systematically killed just as many civilians as Germany. In WWII, systematic genocide seems pretty closely linked to the war. I don't see this big line. Just because you commit acts of genocide in war doesn't mean there isn't a big line between genocide and military campaigns, operations and battles. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6639 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:30 0mar wrote: It's voluntary in the sense that he had two choices, go to the grinder in the East or guard some Jews. One choice was a death sentence, the other was not. The SS, especially towards the end of the war, was conscripting dozens of foreign legions from places as far as Syria to fight and guard the concentration camps. It was not the SS envisioned by Himmler which was an all Aryan para-military organization answerable only to the Fuhrer. I realize that the SS ended up being a mixture of lots of nationalities and even races out of the necessity of manpower but they didn't just exclusively guard prison/concentration camps and volunteering to join the SS was no guarantee of escaping the ostfront. The SS were fanatical, they fought valiantly and courageously, more so than the regular German army in most cases, and Wehrmacht commanders were always very happy to have an SS battalion in tow because they were so effective. In joining the SS you basically signed yourself up for fighting on the front, rounding up "enemies of the state" from conquered lands and taking part in genocide. As I said though, it might have been the easiest option for him, I don't know how difficult it would be to join the Wehrmacht instead of the SS when the SS was so busy recruiting people from these countries. | ||
zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:14 jello_biafra wrote: I realize that the SS ended up being a mixture of lots of nationalities and even races out of the necessity of manpower but they didn't just exclusively guard prison/concentration camps and volunteering to join the SS was no guarantee of escaping the ostfront. The SS were fanatical, they fought valiantly and courageously, more so than the regular German army in most cases, and Wehrmacht commanders were always very happy to have an SS battalion in tow because they were so effective. In joining the SS you basically signed yourself up for fighting on the front, rounding up "enemies of the state" from conquered lands and taking part in genocide. As I said though, it might have been the easiest option for him, I don't know how difficult it would be to join the Wehrmacht instead of the SS when the SS was so busy recruiting people from these countries. At the beginning of the War the SS was already essentially two organizations. What you are describing is the Waffen-SS, which is the military branch actually involved directly in the war. The concentration and extermination camps as well as the logistics around it were primarily run by the general SS, the police branch so to speak. It's not really relevant though as Demjanjuk was never part of either. He was drafted specifically for duty in the extermination camp. He never had a choice to join any fighting units. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6639 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:27 zatic wrote: At the beginning of the War the SS was already essentially two organizations. What you are describing is the Waffen-SS, which is the military branch actually involved directly in the war. The concentration and extermination camps as well as the logistics around it were primarily run by the general SS, the police branch so to speak. It's not really relevant though as Demjanjuk was never part of either. He was drafted specifically for duty in the extermination camp. He never had a choice to join any fighting units. Ah I see, I thought they were essentially the same organization, thanks for the information zatic. I guess this guy didn't have much choice in the matter then. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:31 EmeraldSparks wrote: As far as I'm concerned, this punishment is only right if you round up every single German who wasn't part of the resistance and put them in prison as well. You don't think there is any difference in guilt among all that have participated? | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:32 zatic wrote: You don't think there is any difference in guilt among all that have participated? Some people got lucky that they were never ordered to do the difficult work. Certainly he has his hands dirtier than the rest. But only half of it was his choice. Ordinary soldiers in the East were temporarily reassigned to do death squad work at times. Most soldiers obeyed. Some people refused, but nobody was saved because they did. Both kinds detested it, but SS Commissar Scholz wanted his death quota, and he got it. | ||
Chill
Calgary25990 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:36 EmeraldSparks wrote: Some people got lucky that they were never ordered to do the difficult work. Certainly he has his hands dirtier than the rest. But only half of it was his choice. Ordinary soldiers in the East were temporarily reassigned to do death squad work at times. Most soldiers obeyed. Some people refused, but nobody was saved because they did. Both kinds detested it, but SS Commissar Scholz wanted his death quota, and he got it. I just have a huge problem with the "just following orders" thing. Goering was just following orders. Himmler was just following orders. Eichmann was just following orders. I don't think there is an arbitrary line you can cross at which point people start being guilty "enough". | ||
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Shockk
Germany2269 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:31 EmeraldSparks wrote: As far as I'm concerned, this punishment is only right if you round up every single German who wasn't part of the resistance and put them in prison as well. I initially opened this thread to post my opinion about how it's good to have Demjanjuk finally tried, but then I read this post. Seriously? What the hell is wrong with you, why would you post something like this. | ||
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mikyaJ
1834 Posts
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mikyaJ
1834 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:54 Muffinman53 wrote: I'm not at all standing up for Nazi Germany...all I'm saying is: The allies systematically carpet bombed population centers all over Europe. Russia systematically killed just as many civilians as Germany. In WWII, systematic genocide seems pretty closely linked to the war. I don't see this big line. That's casualties of war. The Holocaust was genocide. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:45 zatic wrote: I just have a huge problem with the "just following orders" thing. Goering was just following orders. Himmler was just following orders. Eichmann was just following orders. I don't think there is an arbitrary line you can cross at which point people start being guilty "enough". Goering, Himmler, and Eichmann took initiative. They were movers and shakers. There's no comparison. On May 13 2011 01:48 Shockk wrote: I initially opened this thread to post my opinion about how it's good to have Demjanjuk finally tried, but then I read this post. Seriously? What the hell is wrong with you, why would you post something like this. So people who can't handle differences of opinion will get angry. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:55 EmeraldSparks wrote: Goering, Himmler, and Eichmann took initiative. They were movers and shakers. There's no comparison. Where do you draw the line then? | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
Around where you start to have enough responsibility that you can control how many people are dying. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:02 EmeraldSparks wrote: Around where you start to have enough responsibility that you can control how many people are dying. That is pretty vague. He could have fled, leaving the camp a man short, hindering the murdering. Sure they probably would have replaced him. Eichmann could have refused. They would probably have replaced him too. My point is there is no line you can draw, and in that gray area it's for a trial to find out. Good thing that happened finally. | ||
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