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AlphaWhale
Australia328 Posts
The numbers alone make this sound ridiculous. The Nazi reign was 70 years ago, this doesn't change anything. They didn't imprison a threat to society or war criminal, if this happened a long time ago they would have. Germany needs to chill out on the Nazi stuff. It was 70 years ago, it's cool bros. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:07 zatic wrote: That is pretty vague. He could have fled, leaving the camp a man short, hindering the murdering. Sure they probably would have replaced him. Eichmann could have refused. They would probably have replaced him too. My point is there is no line you can draw, and in that gray area it's for a trial to find out. Good thing that happened finally. Eichmann was in a position of command. He was one of the major figures who made the Holocaust happen the way it did. That's not disputable and I should not have to explain to you that Adolf fucking Eichmann is pretty fucking responsible for the Holocaust. If being able to desert your position and not doing so makes counts as "command responsibility" then we should have put the entire Wehrmacht in chains. My line is drawn well above the level of responsibility that an ordinary prison guard gets. If you insist on drawing a line such that there is absolutely no room for argument whatsoever, then I draw it all the way at the bottom where everybody who wasn't part of the resistance should have been stripped of their citizenship. | ||
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GhettoSheep
United States150 Posts
In the US they would need to prove he committed each individual count of accessory murder "beyond a reasonable doubt" and that there was ample chance to flee "beyond a reasonable doubt." Basically I don't see him getting convicted in the US, but I'd be interested to know how Germany's criminal law works. | ||
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ViperaViRuS
United States82 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:10 AlphaWhale wrote: Germany needs to chill out on the Nazi stuff. It was 70 years ago, it's cool bros. I understand where you're coming from with this statement, but it's also senseless seeing as how can we comment on whether the families directly impacted by these things should or shouldn't pursue people that played a hand in the murder of family members? On Topic: When is the national hearing? And will there be anywhere else to appeal to after this? And seeing as it took so long for the initial sentence, what's the likelihood he'll even be alive by the end of the appealing process? | ||
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Gibbon
United Kingdom3 Posts
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AlphaWhale
Australia328 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:20 ViperaViRuS wrote: I understand where you're coming from with this statement, but it's also senseless seeing as how can we comment on whether the families directly impacted by these things should or shouldn't pursue people that played a hand in the murder of family members? On Topic: When is the national hearing? And will there be anywhere else to appeal to after this? And seeing as it took so long for the initial sentence, what's the likelihood he'll even be alive by the end of the appealing process? The families can go ahead and pursue these people if they want. I'm not defending anybody or denying someone's right to justice. Whenever Nazi Germany comes into play people treat it as seriously and excitedly as a present day threat when it's really something in the pages of a history book. The Nazi censorship in Germany was more what I was referring to, it's over the top in comparison to other countries, as if Germany is still trying to convince everybody they're not the Nazi party. | ||
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AntiSleep
Canada91 Posts
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Shockk
Germany2269 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:30 AlphaWhale wrote: The families can go ahead and pursue these people if they want. I'm not defending anybody or denying someone's right to justice. Whenever Nazi Germany comes into play people treat it as seriously and excitedly as a present day threat when it's really something in the pages of a history book. The Nazi censorship in Germany was more what I was referring to, it's over the top in comparison to other countries, as if Germany is still trying to convince everybody they're not the Nazi party. Germans will stop treating everything Nazi-related this way the day people all over the world stop treating random Germans as if they'd just love to resurrect the Third Reich. Believe me, this happens, commonly. It doesn't happen to everyone, or everywhere, or every day, but it does happen. And it's one of the reasons why these topics resurface time and time again. | ||
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YipMan
372 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:39 Chill wrote: Whoa this is pretty nuts. I'm surprised he was found guilty... I would have imagined #2 would be fairly easy to prove. Very enlightening post, well done! On May 13 2011 02:10 AlphaWhale wrote: An eight nine year old is tried for twenty seven thousand and nine hundred accounts of accessory to murder? Sentenced five years? The numbers alone make this sound ridiculous. The Nazi reign was 70 years ago, this doesn't change anything. They didn't imprison a threat to society or war criminal, if this happened a long time ago they would have. Germany needs to chill out on the Nazi stuff. It was 70 years ago, it's cool bros. I think the families of the victims which bodies may never be identified think the same way you do. The fact you forget is, that this kind of racial ideology and the support of a modern genocide is still in the mind of million of peoples around the world. BUT YEA, I GUESS ITS JUS HISTORY BRO'S! ignorant dumbhead... On May 13 2011 02:18 EmeraldSparks wrote: My line is drawn well above the level of responsibility that an ordinary prison guard gets. If you insist on drawing a line such that there is absolutely no room for argument whatsoever, then I draw it all the way at the bottom where everybody who wasn't part of the resistance should have been stripped of their citizenship. An ordinary prison guard? This guy actively committed murder, presented himself as an innocent Prisoner , concealed the facts and never showed any signs of remorse. According to your argumentation, every mother, every child is as guilty as he is, makes totally sense. If you were given a gun to kill hundreds if not even thousands of people, you ALWAYS have a choice, at this point you are NOT determined - dont tell me anything fuckin else, that would just be a sad shame... | ||
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socommaster123
United States578 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
zatic
Zurich15345 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:19 GhettoSheep wrote: I wonder what standard of review the court uses. In the US they would need to prove he committed each individual count of accessory murder "beyond a reasonable doubt" and that there was ample chance to flee "beyond a reasonable doubt." Basically I don't see him getting convicted in the US, but I'd be interested to know how Germany's criminal law works. It is pretty comparable to that in Germany, which is why pretty much every similar case previously ended in found not guilty. The problem is that industrial killing as it happened is very unique, and not covered by our conventional understanding of law. Since the killing happened in such a semi automatic, industrialized fashion, there is no murderer. So far defendants could successfully argue that there never was a murderer, so there can't be accessory to murder. Who would they have assisted in the murder? Only recently has the discussion in academic law shifted towards treating the entire entity of the camp as a "factory of death", and everyone working in this factory as assisting the murder taking place there. This is the first time a judge has followed this line of thinking, and it is very much possible that the higher instance will overrule the sentence and return to a more traditional interpretation. I have read a fascinating papers about this a good while ago. It was in German but I'll try to find it. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15345 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:53 socommaster123 wrote: Yipman youre a jackass to stand against Hitlers orders was your own death sentence dont be stupid he did what he had to do to probably save his family from the same fate as many of those in the camps. Sure he killed people, sure Nazi Germany was terrible, but this man is not to blame for 27k counts and its quite pathetic to see this. There previews 15 pages of the thread were already about this. I don't think there is anything that hasn't been said yet. Really no point in continuing. Also warned for not even reading the update as has been said in the note above. . | ||
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YipMan
372 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:53 socommaster123 wrote: Yipman youre a jackass to stand against Hitlers orders was your own death sentence dont be stupid he did what he had to do to probably save his family from the same fate as many of those in the camps. Sure he killed people, sure Nazi Germany was terrible, but this man is not to blame for 27k counts and its quite pathetic to see this. You probably should use that term for yourself and the way your country treats their deserters, maybe that's where you coming from. Furthermore, you ignorant fuk should maybe read what i wrote before making some typical opportunistic statements, he NEVER showed any signs of remorse. I can understand the choice that you rather kill hordes of innocent people instead of losing your own life, but if you do so, live with the consequences. Obviously he lives very well with his past, assimilated himself so far that he can't even regret. Thats the tragedy. User was warned for this post | ||
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MBH
Ireland796 Posts
I think it needs clarification that this man is no german citizen, but a "hired" ukrainian. | ||
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DND_Enkil
Sweden598 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:55 EmeraldSparks wrote: Goering, Himmler, and Eichmann took initiative. They were movers and shakers. There's no comparison. I know there is not a clear line, but would you consider the same defence viable for the terrorists of today? They are also just footsoldiers in thier organisation, some of them born into it and initated by older relatives with pherhaps as little choice in the matter. | ||
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ViperaViRuS
United States82 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:30 AlphaWhale wrote: The families can go ahead and pursue these people if they want. I'm not defending anybody or denying someone's right to justice. Whenever Nazi Germany comes into play people treat it as seriously and excitedly as a present day threat when it's really something in the pages of a history book. The Nazi censorship in Germany was more what I was referring to, it's over the top in comparison to other countries, as if Germany is still trying to convince everybody they're not the Nazi party. I apologize for misunderstanding your previous post then. I do agree with the fact that people do treat it way too seriously for what it was when they have no particular involvement. And I believe the reason as to why Germany tries so hard so convince everybody they're not the Nazi party is due to the way the history books are written. Whenever you ask people of the greatest atrocity that mankind has committed, most will refer back to the Holocaust, it is typically the first thing to pop into everyone's head due to the way we learn history. But in reality, Mao Zedong was estimated to have purged more than 40 million human lives, more than 3 times the estimated 12 million to be purged from the Nazi Party and Stalin was estimated to have purged approximately 23 million, which is close to double that of the Nazi Party. I honestly feel sorry for Germany since they have this stigma that they still have. But, this isn't to say that people from that generation should not be held accountable for their crimes, I simply fail to see the legitimate catharsis the families that are petitioning hope to gain from his sentence? | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
Not comparable to this instance though, but I don't think it is justice to punish someone that old. There was some other Nazi guy that they took to the court on wheelchair and him barely conscious and aware of what's going around. I mean, where is justice to that? He is already screwed and in very bad condition, sentencing him to another punishment won't really accomplish anything. If anything, trying someone that old and sick, kind of makes you feel symphathy for him to a certain extent. What should be done instead, is trying him in the name of public, without giving out the punishment. Making him guilty in the eyes of society. Letting the truth being known. Educating the next generations about the events and letting who did what. Statute of limitations is actually there because of the criminal having to live a long amount of time in fear of getting caught and tried, and therefore never feeling safe. That makes further punishment unnecessary, as it is deemed that he's served the time by having to live through that. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15345 Posts
On May 13 2011 03:40 Bleak wrote: What should be done instead, is trying him in the name of public, without giving out the punishment. Making him guilty in the eyes of society. Letting the truth being known. Educating the next generations about the events and letting who did what. Please read the thread. This is exactly what is happening here. Don't post without reading a thread please. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On May 12 2011 21:16 zatic wrote: He was sentenced to prison only because he was holding the accessory today? Nothing because of what he did in the past?Update: Demnjanjuk has been sentenced to 5 years of prison on accessory of murder. If that's true, then why is it relevant discussing about what he have done in the past in court? If that's false, then are laws in germany retroactive? (I'm assume what he did back then, was not illegal back then) | ||
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zatic
Zurich15345 Posts
On May 13 2011 03:45 VIB wrote: He was sentenced to prison only because he was holding the accessory today? Nothing because of what he did in the past? If that's true, then why is it relevant discussing about what he have done in the past in court? If that's false, then are laws in germany retroactive? (I'm assume what he did back then, was not illegal back then) Murder and accessory to murder was illegal in the 3rd Reich. It really doesn't matter anyway. Arguing otherwise is even more ridiculous that the "was only following orders" line. | ||
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