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On January 31 2009 15:21 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 14:53 ahrara_ wrote:
So because AA requires a sacrifice on behalf of asians we shouldn't do it? why the hell should we be forced to sacrifice for something i will gladly deal with this affirmative action crap if there is affirmative action for asians in the NFL/NHL/NBA. And don't give me that Yao ming crap.
God forbid you give for your fellow man.
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On January 31 2009 14:46 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Affirmative Action should be kept, but recalibrated to favour white students. As minority students largely gain a competitive equality through being raised in abusive patriarchal households, limiting their entry into higher education will lower the parents' incentive to abuse their children.
Furthermore such a system will once again favour natural talent, over the inflated admission of en rote learners. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA IT'S FUNNY COZ HE MEANS IT Anyway, I keep hearing this about how "helping socioeconomically" is a better alternative. But enacting such a policy doesn't mean we shouldn't do AA, because we can do BOTH at the same time. There is no reason we can't have a program that helps impoverished students and black students at the same time. Saying that we can help economically disadvantaged students instead is not a reason to not do affirmative action. The benefit of AA is that it not only helps the disadvantaged, but by promoting minorities into higher social strata, it fights against racial prejudices. For that reason, I'm all for AA, whether or not it may seem fair, because racism does a lot more harm in general than rejecting a few asian kids from CAL. Also, to my fellow asians: Seriously? What the hell are you bitching about. I mean, seriously? Really? LR goes to CAL for fuck's sake, which BTW is legally barred from discriminating by race. The rest of you I'm sure drive cars worth more than all the real estate in Mogadishu combined. The money you pay every year in speeding tickets alone could feed a small sub-saharan nation. Sometimes I hate my own race. You guys are like the Kanye West of races. You have everything you could ever want, you're viewed as a model minority, employers see us as a BOON, and yet you bitch about how the government doesn't like you. Oh boo hoo, cry me a fucking river and go drown in it, the world could care less. And christ think for a second. Our success has nothing to do with our "working hard" which some jackass said earlier. It has to do with the fact that the huge ocean that separates us from America guarantees that only the wealthiest and most successful of us could get here. Affirmative action is racist. Thats why it shouldn't be done. Bringing minorities into the highest levels of social strata isnt the god damn moral mission of the country. We should not be going out of way to ensure Blacks are successful, especially when blacks ARE successful, we have one as the damn president. There is no excuse, no excuse, for government sanctioned racism, especially when this government sanctioned racism is to...get rid of racism. It's idiotic, and just breeds hatred between the races, and re-affirms whatever is still there.
Edit: crap like your "HAAHHAHA" and crap like "Well why cant we do both?" I.e, why cant we discriminate against white people and asians, is the very fucking reason people like moltke pop up and suggest other racist ideas. [Sorry motlke, I don't know you, im not sure if your a racist, I will readily take that back if I misinterpreted what you said].
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
yea, blacks just fail because they are inept.
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CA10835 Posts
On January 31 2009 14:46 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Affirmative Action should be kept, but recalibrated to favour white students. As minority students largely gain a competitive equality through being raised in abusive patriarchal households, limiting their entry into higher education will lower the parents' incentive to abuse their children.
Furthermore such a system will once again favour natural talent, over the inflated admission of en rote learners. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA IT'S FUNNY COZ HE MEANS IT Anyway, I keep hearing this about how "helping socioeconomically" is a better alternative. But enacting such a policy doesn't mean we shouldn't do AA, because we can do BOTH at the same time. There is no reason we can't have a program that helps impoverished students and black students at the same time. Saying that we can help economically disadvantaged students instead is not a reason to not do affirmative action. The benefit of AA is that it not only helps the disadvantaged, but by promoting minorities into higher social strata, it fights against racial prejudices. For that reason, I'm all for AA, whether or not it may seem fair, because racism does a lot more harm in general than rejecting a few asian kids from CAL. Also, to my fellow asians: Seriously? What the hell are you bitching about. I mean, seriously? Really? LR goes to CAL for fuck's sake, which BTW is legally barred from discriminating by race. The rest of you I'm sure drive cars worth more than all the real estate in Mogadishu combined. The money you pay every year in speeding tickets alone could feed a small sub-saharan nation. Sometimes I hate my own race. You guys are like the Kanye West of races. You have everything you could ever want, you're viewed as a model minority, employers see us as a BOON, and yet you bitch about how the government doesn't like you. Oh boo hoo, cry me a fucking river and go drown in it, the world could care less. And christ think for a second. Our success has nothing to do with our "working hard" which some jackass said earlier. It has to do with the fact that the huge ocean that separates us from America guarantees that only the wealthiest and most successful of us could get here.
people like you who make sweeping generalizations piss me off
-my family of 4 makes under $30,000 a year
-i didn't get a cell phone until i got to college (now currently on a $10/month plan)
-i have never owned a car
-i didn't get my drivers license until i was 19 (just so my insurance rates will be lower in the future)
-i never received allowance from my parents because they couldn't afford it
-i received federal subsidized free lunches from 1st-12th grades
-i didn't attend preschool because my parents couldn't afford it
-i never received any sort of special tutoring program, SAT courses, etc
i worked my ass off when i was younger so that i could get to a good school like USC. i had good grades and a million extracurriculars that i stuck with. if had gotten rejected from other schools that other people had gotten accepted to (because they were of a different minority group) you are telling me that i should not care?
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United States22883 Posts
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I used to be against affirmative action, being a Chinese Canadian. I also used to not understand what the whole race-hype around Obama was.
But since moving to the US to study, I'm actually for it, though just in the US (well, I guess I support AA for natives in Canada). Race relations, specifically regarding blacks (but also latinos) are by far the most evident difference between the US and Canada IMHO. The treatment of blacks is so bad here that a little reverse-racism discrimination makes sense. That said, I support it much more for education than I do in the workplace.
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On January 31 2009 15:36 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 15:21 Caller wrote:On January 31 2009 14:53 ahrara_ wrote:
So because AA requires a sacrifice on behalf of asians we shouldn't do it? why the hell should we be forced to sacrifice for something i will gladly deal with this affirmative action crap if there is affirmative action for asians in the NFL/NHL/NBA. And don't give me that Yao ming crap. God forbid you give for your fellow man.
difference between giving and extorting by force
i donate time and goods to those whom need it all the time. But i would rather not someone mugged me for the money or stole it or whatnot.
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CA10835 Posts
On January 31 2009 16:03 yutgoyun wrote:
I used to be against affirmative action, being a Chinese Canadian. I also used to not understand what the whole race-hype around Obama was.
But since moving to the US to study, I'm actually for it, though just in the US (well, I guess I support AA for natives in Canada). Race relations, specifically regarding blacks (but also latinos) are by far the most evident difference between the US and Canada IMHO. The treatment of blacks is so bad here that a little reverse-racism discrimination makes sense. That said, I support it much more for education than I do in the workplace.
where are you going to school? i have never seen black students be treated any differently from any other racial or ethnic group.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 31 2009 16:06 LosingID8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 16:03 yutgoyun wrote:
I used to be against affirmative action, being a Chinese Canadian. I also used to not understand what the whole race-hype around Obama was.
But since moving to the US to study, I'm actually for it, though just in the US (well, I guess I support AA for natives in Canada). Race relations, specifically regarding blacks (but also latinos) are by far the most evident difference between the US and Canada IMHO. The treatment of blacks is so bad here that a little reverse-racism discrimination makes sense. That said, I support it much more for education than I do in the workplace. where are you going to school? i have never seen black students be treated any differently from any other racial or ethnic group.
In Southern California?! Take a black friend into Abercrombie and have him go into a dressing room while you watch the clerks. Hell, take a look at the shit the Bay Area police are in right now.
http://uwnews.org/article.asp?articleID=2148
That study was done with college students.
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On January 31 2009 16:13 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 16:06 LosingID8 wrote:On January 31 2009 16:03 yutgoyun wrote:
I used to be against affirmative action, being a Chinese Canadian. I also used to not understand what the whole race-hype around Obama was.
But since moving to the US to study, I'm actually for it, though just in the US (well, I guess I support AA for natives in Canada). Race relations, specifically regarding blacks (but also latinos) are by far the most evident difference between the US and Canada IMHO. The treatment of blacks is so bad here that a little reverse-racism discrimination makes sense. That said, I support it much more for education than I do in the workplace. where are you going to school? i have never seen black students be treated any differently from any other racial or ethnic group. In Southern California?! Take a black friend into Abercrombie and have him go into a dressing room while you watch the clerks. Hell, take a look at the shit the Bay Area police are in right now. http://uwnews.org/article.asp?articleID=2148That study was done with college students.
I have to second what Jibba said. You'd have to be extraordinarily outofyourwits naive not to be able to see the discrimination that happens with African Americans. You don't have any idea what that is because you're chinese, or you're white, or you're some other race that doesn't benefit from AA. You only have token black friends and live in fairly diverse communities so you're woefully unaware of the racism that pervades society. Ya I'd be pissed off if I didn't get into my first pick school because a black student got an advantage because of AA. But at the same time, AA as a whole has the promise of healing those relations once and for all, so that is a worthwhile sacrifice on the whole.
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Norway28909 Posts
i think AA is principally wrong, but as a pragmatic im still in favour, as it reverses some of the ingrained societal racism.
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United States22883 Posts
Well, I wouldn't use those forms of racism as a reason to implement AA. I think you'll have better luck with the diversity argument I mentioned before.
Give a significant boost for being poor/going to a shitty school, then give a smaller bump for the sake of diversity. Rich white kids/asians get left out, but they're more likely to get legacy points anyways.
Or go to that open admissions thing.
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Norway28909 Posts
yea ok I can also agree that there are better ways to go about it than AA. I think AA is significantly easier to administer tho.
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On January 31 2009 15:38 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Affirmative action is racist. Thats why it shouldn't be done. Bringing minorities into the highest levels of social strata isnt the god damn moral mission of the country. We should not be going out of way to ensure Blacks are successful, especially when blacks ARE successful, we have one as the damn president. There is no excuse, no excuse, for government sanctioned racism, especially when this government sanctioned racism is to...get rid of racism. It's idiotic, and just breeds hatred between the races, and re-affirms whatever is still there.
You're applying blanket principles to every circumstance without weighing the benefits for that instance in particular. Just because something is "racist" or "discriminatory" doesn't mean it's bad. I base my ethics on utilitarianism whenever it is possible -- I think we should go with the option that does the most good or least bad. In this case, any harm done by reverse discrimination is outweighed by the advantage of solving racism.
BTW, blacks are successful -- HAHAHAHAHAHA. Minorities in America have an infant mortality rate resemble that of some ex-Soviet Eastern Bloc countries and they make god knows how much less income on average. And the invisible discrimination that occurs -- plenty of other posters have already described it.
Edit: crap like your "HAAHHAHA" and crap like "Well why cant we do both?" I.e, why cant we discriminate against white people and asians, is the very fucking reason people like moltke pop up and suggest other racist ideas. [Sorry motlke, I don't know you, im not sure if your a racist, I will readily take that back if I misinterpreted what you said].
how the fuck did your interpretation of my repeating a very common and logical argument turn into discriminating against white people and asians in fact what the fuck are you talking about?
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On January 31 2009 13:18 Meta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 10:58 Savio wrote:
Now, this thread should not be a debate over whether or not there are racists in America still. There are plenty of people who hate Catholics, Mormons, Jews, LGBTs, and any other subgroup you could name.
Not to be a dick, bot none of those are races. I wouldn't equate racism with hatred of religions in most cases.That's just kind of a pet peeve of mine.
Is hate based on race worse than hate based on some other aspect of a group? Besides, jew is a race and a religion.
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United States22883 Posts
Jew is not a race... and there is a difference between hatred for inherent attributes and chosen attributes, but both are bad.
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On January 31 2009 14:15 rushz0rz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 10:58 Savio wrote:
Now, this thread should not be a debate over whether or not there are racists in America still. There are plenty of people who hate Catholics, Mormons, Jews, LGBTs, and any other subgroup you could name. The question is whether racism is still such a strong force in our country that the government must require institutions to accept or hire a certain number of minorities even if the institution feels there are not enough qualified applicants of that race.
Hating a Catholic or Mormon is not racism. It is prejudice. As for Affirmative-Action, it should be eliminated. In Canada we still have this ridiculous law.
I don't think I was clear in OP. What I meant is that there is hate against lots of groups. Racism is one form and hate against a religion is another. What I was saying is that the fact that there are some racists is not by itself justification for affirmative action, because there are other groups who are hated for other reasons who are not getting any special treatment from the government.
I was not trying to say that those religions were races.
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On January 31 2009 14:46 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Affirmative Action should be kept, but recalibrated to favour white students. As minority students largely gain a competitive equality through being raised in abusive patriarchal households, limiting their entry into higher education will lower the parents' incentive to abuse their children.
Furthermore such a system will once again favour natural talent, over the inflated admission of en rote learners. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA IT'S FUNNY COZ HE MEANS IT Anyway, I keep hearing this about how "helping socioeconomically" is a better alternative. But enacting such a policy doesn't mean we shouldn't do AA, because we can do BOTH at the same time. There is no reason we can't have a program that helps impoverished students and black students at the same time. Saying that we can help economically disadvantaged students instead is not a reason to not do affirmative action. The benefit of AA is that it not only helps the disadvantaged, but by promoting minorities into higher social strata, it fights against racial prejudices. For that reason, I'm all for AA, whether or not it may seem fair, because racism does a lot more harm in general than rejecting a few asian kids from CAL.
The point they were making is that rich black kids from well educated, stable homes are also receiving the benefits of AA. Obama used this as what he saw as the problem with AA. He pointed out that his children will get special treatment even though they were raised in privileged circumstances and he doesn't want that cause he doesn't think that is right.
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On January 31 2009 14:53 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2009 12:52 Savio wrote:On January 31 2009 11:03 Bosu wrote:
I think affirmative action based on race, gender, or religion is no longer needed. However, there is still an argument that can be made to use affirmative action for students that come from poor areas with schools that are not as good among other disadvantages. I think this is essentially what Obama's stance is as well It is. BTW, Savio, I suggest you read this for a great bit of post-modern history. http://www.amazon.com/When-Affirmative-Action-White-Twentieth-Century/dp/0393052133
LoL, Jibba, I've always wondered if you have read all the stuff you recommend. If so, you are one heck of a well-read guy. You've probably recommended to me over 1000 pages of reading in the months I have been here 
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The only AA I will ever be able to tolerate is for the Natives, and they get a hell of a lot of help already. Free or nearly free housing on reserves, free college (most courses/classes will be paid for by the Government), and will get hired above any other race on the spot. I find it a bit much and any other AA is complete crap and should be completely banned. I noticed, and we even discussed this in class, most Universities in Canada right now are looking only for Asian professor applicants, and would most definitely get the job. I find this so very sad, especially in Canada, where racism doesn't even really exist, at least not nearly to the extent as in the USA. We just don't need it here.
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