Update: go to page 4 for the discussion about whether the first video really shows grad missiles. For now I still believe it is correct. __________________________________________________________________
The Israeli army has set up a youtube channel showing footage of aerial attacks against Hamas in Gaza from these past few days.
(CNN) -- Israel has taken its barrage of airstrikes in Gaza to the Web, creating a YouTube channel this week to post footage of its air force dropping bombs on Hamas targets. The Israel Defense Forces has posted 16 videos so far of its recent airstrikes in Gaza.
The Israel Defense Forces has posted 16 videos so far of its recent airstrikes in Gaza. more photos »
An initial message by the Israel Defense Forces posted on the channel, youtube.com/user/idfnadesk, said Israel wanted to use YouTube to "help us bring our message to the world" with "exclusive footage showing the IDF's operation success" in Gaza.
An IDF spokesman said YouTube was a way to get that message "to as many as we can," though he declined to comment further.
The YouTube channel is just one multimedia platform Israel is using to spread its message on the recent campaign in Gaza, which began Saturday.
The Israeli Consulate in New York also launched a Twitter feed Monday, which it has used to solicit questions from users for a virtual press conference.
The YouTube posts started Monday, with black-and-white aerial military video of Israeli aircraft striking "rockets in transit" and "terrorist smuggling tunnels." Another video in color showed what are identified as Israeli trucks transporting aid into Gaza.
The statement, still posted as of Tuesday night, said YouTube had taken down some of the IDF videos but, "due to blogger and viewer support, YouTube has returned some of the footage they removed."
The statement was removed sometime Wednesday, replaced with one that reads in part, "We thank you for visiting us and will continue to update this site with documentation of the IDF's humane action and operational success in operation 'Cast Lead.' "
By Wednesday afternoon, the channel had 5,600 subscribers and 16 videos posted. The most popular was a video titled "Israeli Air Force Strikes Hamas Government Complex," which shows a large compound with three structures methodically leveled in an air assault Tuesday. Another video shows a building identified as the office of Hamas leader Ismail Haniya in crosshairs before disappearing in a dark cloud of smoke.
According to its Web site, YouTube has a policy that prohibits "inappropriate content," including violent images. While YouTube wouldn't specifically address the IDF statement, a company official said the site relies on its subscribers to flag videos considered inappropriate.
"We review all flagged content quickly, and if we find that a video does violate the guidelines, we remove it, on average in under an hour," said Victoria Grand, YouTube's policy chief. "Occasionally, a video flagged by users is mistakenly taken down. When this is brought to our attention, we review the content and take appropriate action, which may include restoring videos that had been removed."
The New York Israeli Consulate's Twitter feed has picked up more than 2,600 followers since it launched Monday to share its point of view with a younger demographic, said David Saranga, consul for media and public affairs.
"We saw that there is a big debate, a very vivid debate about the situation in Gaza, and we wanted to bring our point of view, we wanted to share it with people on Twitter," Saranga said.
Using the abbreviated language of 140 characters, the feed takes in comments from users and answers their questions on a variety of issues, from the possibility of negotiations with Hamas -- "we R pro nego...we talk only w/ ppl who accept R rt 2 live" -- to how many rockets have hit Israel in the past six month -- "ovr 500," according to Saranga, who handles nearly all of the questions.
"We wanted to outreach to the young generation, who does not read the conventional media, but is still interested in events in the Middle East, so we thought this is a good way to be an official voice for the questions people are asking," he said.
Israeli airstrikes in the territory began Saturday, in what it calls an effort to halt the firing of rockets into southern Israel. More than 390 Palestinians have been killed, according to Palestinian medical sources, and 1,900 people have been wounded, including 400 women and children.
Israeli sources say four Israelis have been killed by Palestinian rocket fire. advertisement
Haniya, whose office in Gaza was struck overnight, said Israel needed to "stop attacking and killing our children, women and men."
The Israeli military says it is targeting only Hamas militants, which it says are responsible for the barrage of rocket fire into southern Israel. Each side blames the other for violating an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire, which formally expired December 19 but had been weakening for months.
As far as I know, this is the first time that they are making videos of airstrikes taken from drones readily available to the public. There is also one where you get the view from the camera at the tip of a guided missile as it appraches its target, flies through a window and blows up.
Here is the channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk Three videos of note: Warning: the first is rather maccabre. If you think that you will be disturbed by seeing people hit by a missile, do not watch it.
I think that the purpose of creating this channel is to help clear the myth that Israel deliberately targets civillians. The precision weaponry shown has incredible accuracy. The targets include weapons storage facilities (hidden in mosques and underground tunnels), grad missile launch sites and Hamas buildings and boats.
The videos show how Hamas hides weapons among civilians so as to increase the likelyhood of casualties and strike PR points. So far, about 60 civilian casualties have been reported. The proportion of innocents killed seems to be incredibly low compared to other current conflicts. This is a result of using these very accurate weapons and also of the practice of warning people well in advance (I think I heard it was 24 hours) before blowing up buildings so that they can get out of the area.
Posting these videos is a new development in Israel's approach to PR. I do not want this thread to be about your opinions on the Israeli/Arab conflict because that discussion is all over the place and will just get out of hand.
I would like this thread to be about the media representation and of the current hostilities and the PR strategies used by both sides. Thanks!
On January 01 2009 12:09 inlagdsil wrote: I would like this thread to be about the media representation and of the current hostilities and the PR strategies used by both sides. Thanks!
Apparently, using YouTube is now a strategy of the Israeli government.
On January 01 2009 12:09 inlagdsil wrote: I would like this thread to be about the media representation and of the current hostilities and the PR strategies used by both sides. Thanks!
Apparently, using YouTube is now a strategy of the Israeli government.
IMO it shows an openness about disclosure of targeting methods that hasn't ever been seen in warfare. We need to see more of this.
On January 01 2009 15:07 Underwhelmed wrote: Apparently, using YouTube is now a strategy of the Israeli government.
IMO it shows an openness about disclosure of targeting methods that hasn't ever been seen in warfare. We need to see more of this.
If a state-controlled media outlet is your idea of "open". I don't trust the Israeli government (or indeed, any entity) to not hide distasteful things they might do. For all you know, they could be indiscriminately demolishing Palestinian homes with bulldozers, which would never be disclosed that YouTube channel.
On January 01 2009 15:07 Underwhelmed wrote: Apparently, using YouTube is now a strategy of the Israeli government.
IMO it shows an openness about disclosure of targeting methods that hasn't ever been seen in warfare. We need to see more of this.
If a state-controlled media outlet is your idea of "open". I don't trust the Israeli government (or indeed, any entity) to not hide distasteful things they might do. For all you know, they could be indiscriminately demolishing Palestinian homes with bulldozers, which would never be disclosed that YouTube channel.
Edit: Typo
SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT. LOGICAL FALLACY DETECTED. POST IGNORED.
On January 01 2009 15:50 OmgIRok wrote: Didn't Israel just kinda sorta reveal some of their technology with the YouTube vids?
It's not like people don't know they have this. And it's not groundbreaking technology.
I actually think this is kind of interesting... You can't really fight evidence like this. And to say that they aren't showing the ones where they hit civilians purposefully or some crap, take a hike. Why waste ammunition...
@ Underwhelmed: -Perhaps calling it a new "strategy" is too much, but it certainly is a change. Israel has been ineffective lately at communicating its position. Army generals making statements explaining/defending Israeli actions do not get much notice, whereas pictures of rubble and injured Palestinian children are on front pages everywhere (Israel has a policy forbidding the publication of pictures of injured/dead Israelis out of respect for them and their families). In order to show to the world that it is not in fact the evil monster that some depict it as, it must find ways of getting through to people. This channel is one such way. I found it particularly surprising during the recent conflict in Lebanon when some of the people that the IDF chose to speak to the media where not able to express the Israeli position clearly enough and where thrown off by some of the loaded questions that they were asked. -As for your second post, of course they won't show terrible things, but that is not relevent here. Your example of bulldozers is incorrect because the houses that were razed like that were those of suicide-bombers. You can agree or disagree with that policy, but it is anything but indiscriminate.
@D10 and motbob: this disclosure certainly is amazing, and I agree that it is useful.
On January 01 2009 15:07 Underwhelmed wrote: Apparently, using YouTube is now a strategy of the Israeli government.
IMO it shows an openness about disclosure of targeting methods that hasn't ever been seen in warfare. We need to see more of this.
If a state-controlled media outlet is your idea of "open". I don't trust the Israeli government (or indeed, any entity) to not hide distasteful things they might do. For all you know, they could be indiscriminately demolishing Palestinian homes with bulldozers, which would never be disclosed that YouTube channel.
Edit: Typo
SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT. LOGICAL FALLACY DETECTED. POST IGNORED.
how is this a slippery slope argument? how is it unlikely that Israel wouldn't hide footage of civilian deaths?
On January 01 2009 15:07 Underwhelmed wrote: Apparently, using YouTube is now a strategy of the Israeli government.
IMO it shows an openness about disclosure of targeting methods that hasn't ever been seen in warfare. We need to see more of this.
If a state-controlled media outlet is your idea of "open". I don't trust the Israeli government (or indeed, any entity) to not hide distasteful things they might do. For all you know, they could be indiscriminately demolishing Palestinian homes with bulldozers, which would never be disclosed that YouTube channel.
Edit: Typo
SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT. LOGICAL FALLACY DETECTED. POST IGNORED.
how is this a slippery slope argument? how is it unlikely that Israel wouldn't hide footage of civilian deaths?
I don't see how it is a slippery slope argument either. However, saying "there is this good thing therefore it must be hiding a bad thing" is certainly a logical fallacy. That kind of situation sometimes occurs, though I don't think that it is the case here.
EDIT: As for the issue of showing footage of civilian casualties, of course they will not show civilians clearly getting killed. Also, we do not know if there were any such casualties as a result of the strikes shown. I'm not sure if they would have caried on with the bombing if civilians had been apparent in the vicinity (they must have a policy on that depending on the gravity of the threat or importance of the target, but I don't know it).
I'm not going to get involved in a Israel vs Palestine argument here, so I'll keep this relevant to the original post. The point is that just about the only thing I'd trust this YouTube channel to do is to promote their government's perspective. A couple videos cleared for release on their official propaganda channel doesn't really convince me that all their operations are conducted as conscientiously as depicted, especially when I consider past news reports.
I don't know if it's because you're from Canada, but in the US, the representation of the conflict is decidedly more skewed in favor of Israel. There's a documentary on this if anybody is interested (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565)
On January 01 2009 16:51 Underwhelmed wrote: I'm not going to get involved in a Israel vs Palestine argument here, so I'll keep this relevant to the original post. The point is that just about the only thing I'd trust this YouTube channel to do is to promote their government's perspective. A couple videos cleared for release on their official propaganda channel doesn't really convince me that all their operations are conducted as conscientiously as depicted, especially when I consider past news reports.
I don't know if it's because you're from Canada, but in the US, the representation of the conflict is decidedly more skewed in favor of Israel. There's a documentary on this if anybody is interested (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565)
It's true that showing these videos does not prove that all operations are caried out in this way. This a propaganda war too! From what I have seen, Israel has been losing the propaganda war. Perhaps the media that I am exposed to is quite different from the norm in the States, I'll watch the documentary then make some comments. Thank you for staying on topic!
EDIT (will update as I watch): about the documentary: + Show Spoiler +
in the first 12 minutes, there is not a single sentence which is not directly or indirectly criticising Israel. This is not a documentary, this is propaganda. The video goes on to claim the old "the Jews are controlling the media" myth, then goes into "conspiracy theory" mode. It is interesting that every single organisation listed as "progressive" is pro-palestinian, implying that any organisation that isn't must be wrong. Now at 18 minutes, still not a single person from any of the groups criticized was given a chance to speak. Also, the editing makes the IDF spokesman appear to say something that he does not mean. He is talking about how media coverage is of low quality, the context makes it seem like he adheres to the thesis of the video, which he probably doesn't. So far this is a good example of misleading coverage and bias. It's ironic how they get Robert Fisk to talk a lot. Here is a journalist who makes no claim not to be biased! This movie so far has two basic premises: everything must be understood in the context of the "illegal occupation and oppression", and that Israel eventually wants to own the West Bank and Gaza. The use of the word "occupation" is interesting as it is at the center of the propaganda war; this could be discussed in this thread. However, the second premise is simply untrue. The only Israelis who want this are fringe ultra-orthodox groups: they don't have much political clout and in any case that would be impossible and stupid. There are many factual inaccuracies, and opinions stated as facts. All of the footage from Israel/Palestinian Authority shows Israelis with guns or bulldozers, or Palestinian rubble. Earlier, the fly-ridden corpses from the massacres of Sabra and Shatila were shown, but the narration made it difficult for someone who doesn't know about the history to understand that this atrocity was not committed by the Israelis but by Lebanese who had been horribly abused by the Palestinians. This is a good example of how the film contradicts its constant insistance on the importance of context: by the same logic, if you justify terror by occupation, then the Phalangists would be perfectly justified in this mass murder. This is abhorrent. By 29 minutes the film has lowered itself to accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing. I'm still waiting for the inevitable Nazi references and blood libel. I started watching this hoping it would be informative but so far I find it lacking in eveything but rhetoric. They make many good and interesting remarks, but they are drowned out by the general atmosphere of hatred of Israel throughout. I will try to pick out these good points about the media: -Context is essential to understanding the situation -The use of words such as "attack", "retaliation" paint a picture that might not be factually correct. In my opinion, the use of "cycle of violence" is one of the most common missleading terms as it makes it look as though one event is the result of the other: "an eye for an eye" is not true. I don't want to get into this now as it would go far off topic. -Emotionally connecting with the victims of attacks is key to making the public sympathize with them. -The quality of reporting is low and journalists are often influenced in what they write. The film has taken each of these good points then either showed only one side or skewed them and contradicted itself.
I would like to look into what they say about the use of "relative calm" as refering to periods where only Palestinians are killed.
I have a question about the publication of personal, emotionally charged stories about people who died and their families. In the media that I get (mostly Canadian, British and American), you find small personal details (or long stories) about Palestinians much more often than about Israelis. Is this the norm in the States, or is it just the opposite as the movie suggests?
Again and again, the British media, especially the BBC, is praised for its coverage. They show much more empathy for the Palestinians, it's true. This isn't a bad thing. But they show almost none for Jews. The BBC is well known for anti-Israel bias, and should thus not be praised.
52 minutes in, not a single mention has been made of Palestinian propaganda. The title of the video is "Peace, propaganda and the Promised Land". The documentary has failed, and I have seen enough, at least for tonight. I still have learned a bit though, but I would not recommend this as a source of information or analysis for anyone.
RE EDIT: by my own fault, this thread risks veering towards the subject of media bias which is relevant to the OP but not central to it. Let's try to redirect it towards the initial issue.
my question is: sure the first video SAYS those are missiles, but the quality is so shitty they could be loading pipes for replacing sewage stuff or something or god knows what... it doesn't really show anything.
Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel.
On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote: Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel.
It wasn't until you made this post that I realized you are batshit insane.
As far as I know, this is the first time that they are making videos of airstrikes taken from drones readily available to the public. There is also one where you get the view from the camera at the tip of a guided missile as it appraches its target, flies through a window and blows up.
didnt the us release videos on desert storm precision air strikes also? and to the person who mentioned you really cant see whatever ammunition being used to attack these targets, i think it was the same way with the US arsenal. i think u can only spot the hellfire missiles and maverick missiles, (on the A-10 or AH-64 i believe) arsenal on video clips from the attacker's POV. it might not be missiles, but laser guided bombs like the GBU-series or GDAM bombs which have no flare since they sorta guide to their targets.
On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote: Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel.
It wasn't until you made this post that I realized you are batshit insane.
First of all why are you flaming me without even explaining what you don't agree with?
This specific post which you found insane for some reason is pretty much common sense and most Israelis think along this lines.. What the hell made you decide that is insane? or is it because you have a tough time responding to the things themselves that you resort to calling me names? With what part did you have such a big problem?
Short description of what I wrote:
There is no reasonable explanation why the Kadima government ignored the rocket attacks on Israel for so many years, commanding the IDF to hold fire and allowing the terrorists to shoot at us and gain long range rockets and missiles soon reaching Tel Aviv (like New York or London); then suddenly 1.5 months before election when they are extremely beyond in all the polls they suddenly decide to completely reverse their policy and go out to a sudden military operation.
Zipi Livni has bad English and is a defeatist.
Netanyahu has good English and is generally much better at giving interviews.
Israel PR can be much more effective if they'll focus on showing the wrongdoings of the Hamas regime to the world.
On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote: Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel.
It wasn't until you made this post that I realized you are batshit insane.
Eh I imagine he has a lot more at stake in the conflict than we do, it's a lot harder to look at stuff objectively when you're so involved.
So yes that post is extremely inflammatory and wrong, but I think you can let it slide. It's like how american's went after 9/11, "kill all the arab's" or whatever. It's wrong to say that but people lose sight of it when stuff is so close to you.
You're right I do have a lot more at stake it's me, my family and friends who are under fire.
I didn't say "kill all the arabs" I didn't say "kill all palestinians" i said destroy the Hamas who is a terrorist organization working toward his published goal to eliminate Israel and kill all Jews in it, how is that extremely inflammatory or wrong to want to destroy them?
Is it wrong to want to destroy or at least greatly weaken Al Qaeda and Bin Laden? Why is it wrong to want to destroy Hamas and protect our civilians?
On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote: Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel.
It wasn't until you made this post that I realized you are batshit insane.
Eh I imagine he has a lot more at stake in the conflict than we do, it's a lot harder to look at stuff objectively when you're so involved.
So yes that post is extremely inflammatory and wrong, but I think you can let it slide. It's like how american's went after 9/11, "kill all the arab's" or whatever. It's wrong to say that but people lose sight of it when stuff is so close to you.
And now we have proof, that the blood of innocent palistinians is on the hands of Hamas. When you turn a village into a military base, you've just recruited all the people there into war participants.
I support Israel 110% and I think this is a stroke of PR genius on their part.
The only insane thing about Locke is the amount of tact he displays when speaking about the group of people lobbing rockets at him and overtly desiring to destroy him and his people.
On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote: Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel.
It wasn't until you made this post that I realized you are batshit insane.
Eh I imagine he has a lot more at stake in the conflict than we do, it's a lot harder to look at stuff objectively when you're so involved.
So yes that post is extremely inflammatory and wrong, but I think you can let it slide. It's like how american's went after 9/11, "kill all the arab's" or whatever. It's wrong to say that but people lose sight of it when stuff is so close to you.
I don't know who you hang out with but since when was it ever appropriate to think or say "kill all the arabs"? o_o And how does such an offensive phrase equate with anything Locke has posted?
Does the fact that they show precise bombings on youtube mean that they dont do any other bombings? During the Desert Storm, the precise bombings were just like few percent of all bombings, but they only showed the first ones.. Do you think that they will reveal their failed bombings if any occur? Do you think that the Palestinians can show such videos? Do the Palestinians have airplanes? Do they even have internet connections? Does such PR make you think that Israel is right?
On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote: Israel should sent all Hamas members to concentration camps as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years. .
fixed
It's so interesting that Jews always talk about the Holocaust, but on the internet forums so many of them demand that their government should "destroy" Hamas. How can it be done without murdering them all?
I'm completely down the middle on this issue and want to keep away from it but just commentating from the sidelines, TL is biased towards the Arabic nations imo.
On January 02 2009 09:58 closed wrote: Does the fact that they show precise bombings on youtube mean that they dont do any other bombings? During the Desert Storm, the precise bombings were just like few percent of all bombings, but they only showed the first ones.. Do you think that they will reveal their failed bombings if any occur? Do you think that the Palestinians can show such videos? Do the Palestinians have airplanes? Do they even have internet connections? Does such PR make you think that Israel is right?
On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote: Israel should sent all Hamas members to concentration camps as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years. .
fixed
It's so interesting that Jews always talk about the Holocaust, but on the internet forums so many of them demand that their government should "destroy" Hamas. How can it be done without murdering them all?
This thread is going way off... but in fact your post highlights something that I wanted it to be about.
Comparing the Jews to Nazis is one of the tools of the Palestinian propaganda machine. It is used to make people overlook the suffering of Israelis and demonize them. There have actually been psychological studies on this kind of situation where people blame the victims for the same crimes that were committed against them. By doing this, people drown the guilt that they themselves might feel about these crimes.
When you throw in completely inappropriate words like "concentration camp", "ethnic cleansing" etc. not only are you wrong (there is no logical comparison unless you are brain-washed and just spout rhetoric) but you are becoming a tool of those who want to control how you think.
If Israelis wanted to slaughter the Palestinians, there would be none left. You yourself talk about the imbalance of power. They absolutely do not want to though. Your "correction" is highly offensive to me.
Comparing the Jews to Nazis is one of the tools of the Palestinian propaganda machine.
No, its the direct result of comparing historical realities.
So is it okay to bring up certain facts on a few Arab leaders supported the Axis powers?
Hm...
A picture taken in 1943 of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini reviewing Bosnian-Muslim troops - a unit of the "Hanjar (Saber) Division" of the Waffen SS which he personally recruited for Hitler.
Comparing the Jews to Nazis is one of the tools of the Palestinian propaganda machine.
No, its the direct result of comparing historical realities.
You could at least try to prove that. But you can't. People who try just spew overused rhetoric. Let us look at some of the main characteristics of the Nazis and show why they don't apply:
-Desire for world domination: no way, if you think that the Jews want to take over the world then your mind is so far gone that I can't do anything for you.
-Superior race: The Israelis do not consider themselves to be a race. Muslims are given equal rights to Jews in Israel, and are able but not forced to join the army. The Nazies murdered Jews in their own country. Israel tries to protect all of their citizens, no matter their ethnicity/religion. All of the actions of the State of Israel have reasons other than feeling superior to Palestinians.
-Setting up industrial death camps: the goal of these is to kill as many people as possible as fast as possible. Israel hates killing Palestinian civilians. You do not believe this, I know. But look at it this way. The country is a rational actor, even when the reasons are stupid. If you do not believe in the humanity of Israelis, I cannot persuade you otherwise. However, you must admit that killing innocents is terrible PR for Israel, and brings them no benefit whatsoever. Also, considering the lengths that they go to in order to prevent casualties, they can hardly be accused of anything like death camps. Why waste money on precision munitions when you want to kill everyone? Israel has the abaility to raze all of Gaza in 5 minutes with artillery. They will never do such a thing.
-Setting up concentration camps: their goal is to destroy a population while taking advantage of their slave labour. Firstly, Israel does not use Palestinian labour in any forced way. Some Pals have jobs in Israel, where they make more money than they would at home. Then there is the idea of slowly killing the population. Why does Israel supply food aid, provide 90 of the electricity (yes, those power shortages were forced by Hamas for propaganda, and not the result of Israeli actions), provide medical care etc. if it wanted to kill them? And who is it that is forcing Palestininans to live in refugee camps? When you have such a camp beside cities, you have to wonder why the general population refuses to integrate them. As for the Palestinian refugees outside of the Palestinian Authority, ie in Arab countries, they are forced to stay in the camps by the host countries who do not want an influx of poor unemployed people.
-Gathering behind a charismatic leader: have you seen the Israeli leadership? Have you heard them speak? Not a single leader can get more than 30% of the popular vote, so coalitions are the norm.
On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote: Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel.
It wasn't until you made this post that I realized you are batshit insane.
Personal attacks like this are out of line and add nothing to any argument. I thought better of you, ahrara.
On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote: Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel.
It wasn't until you made this post that I realized you are batshit insane.
Ahara, your an asshole, you try and make it sound like your the you know your shit but really your just gobbling whatever bullshit that makes Israel look like a mass murdered and ignore the rest. Where do you get your information? Because obviously its completely biased and I don't have to go to far out on a limb to assume your a racist
On January 02 2009 12:45 iloveoil wrote: Who wants to guess which side of the conflict has killed more people?
Interesting question. The answer is that PLO/Fatah + Hamas + other terrorist organisations have killed the most Palestinians, more than the Israelis. The PLO making getting its people involved in two civil wars (Lebanon and Jordan) in order to gain power got thousands killed and resulted in the Palestinians being hated around the arab world and kicked out of jobs (the Palestinian diapsora had been very prosperous). Also, the constant infighting between factions (remember the Hamas/Fatah war?) is the cause of thousands of fatalities. Moreover, Palestinians are kept under totalitarian rule by their own government. Anyone suspected of collaborating with Israel is shot. No trials here. Rivals for power are killed (for instance take the seven or so different intelligence agencies of Fatah under Arafat messing with any oposition) . Then you have cases of terrorist organisations killing civilians for propaganda purposes. A good example is the family that was blown up on a beach by mines. They pretended that Israeli warships had gunned the beach (a later enquiry proved that this was definitely not the case).
I do not have exact numbers, but I think it is clear who is responsible for more Palestinian deaths.
W.e Hamas shoots rockets at Israel's indiscriminately. Israel bombs targets known to have strong ties to hamas =p It's what they get really. Israel is the strongest military force in that region and you attack them it's basically the 7 day war all over again.
Hell you wouldn't think this was evil if it was your country and your area having crude rockets fired at all the time. Hamas was elected to power in Gaza on the platform on death to Israel =p and guess what they do terrorise Israel again, =p. Guess what Israel does punishes them. Just think of it as your country would do the fucking same!
On January 01 2009 17:35 anotak wrote: my question is: sure the first video SAYS those are missiles, but the quality is so shitty they could be loading pipes for replacing sewage stuff or something or god knows what... it doesn't really show anything.
This guy got it completely right....the video just says 'Grad missiles being loaded onto Hamas vehicle'.
Now you watch the video again and tell me that those things they are loading are without doubt missiles, in fact it's so beyond doubt you'd be willing to blow up the truck because you know you're right.
This video proves nothing, it's just them blowing up a truck that people were loading things on to. It might be weapons or it might not be, but you can't tell. Surely the people whose words you're least likely to trust are those who are blowing the truck up.
Comparing the Jews to the Nazis is perfectly applicable for one important reason the Jews use the Holocaust as a method of relinquishing blame from themselves. Just because someone commited genocide to you does not give you the right to do it to someone else. The Israeli state (and I don't care what religion they are this is just a diversion) are ruthless occupiers who are actively attempting to commit genocide to the Palestinian people. They surrounded them with a giant wall then but them off from food and medicine supplies for crying out loud. I have no doubt that if it wasn't for the watching eye of the international community they would simply shoot the lot of them but in the mean time they instead simply strike civilian targets intentionally, block food imports and other necessities of life and then claim their enemy are the terrorists, and that Israel never strikes first and never hits civilian targets. This is taken to be an unquestioned truth by the Israeli population and this allows the government to continue their atrocities however even through the distortion of western media it is obvious that these are little more than myths.
Not a single Israeli was killed by Hamas prior to the attacks, yet apparently that is justification to kill hundreds. What is even worse is the blatant hypocrisy of their claim they never strike civilian targets. The Israelis said that they are acting to protect the legitimate government of Palestine. The legitimate government is Hamas, they were elected in fair elections noone questions that, Israel strikes against government buildings like the health department, the education department and parliament house, are these terrorist targets? Ofcourse not, and the entire pan Arab community is under no illusion as to the true nature of Israeli aggression. Infact the number one reason why Arabs hate America (might be different due to Iraq) was always American support of Israel, this is no different to supporting Chinese suppression of Tibet, only marked by far more two facedness and hypocrisy and also blatant bias in the western media.
Israel are quite stupid in my opinion, they have made the entire Arab population hate them with a passion there are countless millions willing to lay down their life in the defence of the Palestinian people and they will never forget what Israel has done the time will come one day and possibly sooner rather than later that the Arabs will have their revenge.
On January 02 2009 13:24 IzzyCraft wrote: W.e Hamas shoots rockets at Israel's indiscriminately. Israel bombs targets known to have strong ties to hamas =p It's what they get really. Israel is the strongest military force in that region and you attack them it's basically the 7 day war all over again.
Hell you wouldn't think this was evil if it was your country and your area having crude rockets fired at all the time. Hamas was elected to power in Gaza on the platform on death to Israel =p and guess what they do terrorise Israel again, =p. Guess what Israel does punishes them. Just think of it as your country would do the fucking same!
If my country was ruthless occupiers I suppose I would support that occupation and missleading labels like 'Terrorists' to justify our atrocities then I would support it, but for outsiders looking in it is obvious who the bad guys really are. Its like having a bully beating a defenseless person with a crowbar, then the defenseless person slaps the bully on the leg. How dare you slap me says the bully, now you will feel my power and continues his ruthless violence.
Palestine has repeatedly asked for a ceasefire but Israel says no. Have have no interest in peace only conquest.
On January 01 2009 17:35 anotak wrote: my question is: sure the first video SAYS those are missiles, but the quality is so shitty they could be loading pipes for replacing sewage stuff or something or god knows what... it doesn't really show anything.
This guy got it completely right....the video just says 'Grad missiles being loaded onto Hamas vehicle'.
Now you watch the video again and tell me that those things they are loading are without doubt missiles, in fact it's so beyond doubt you'd be willing to blow up the truck because you know you're right.
This video proves nothing, it's just them blowing up a truck that people were loading things on to. It might be weapons or it might not be, but you can't tell. Surely the people whose words you're least likely to trust are those who are blowing the truck up.
Your right those weren't missiles they were simply loading 2x4's...
This thread is deteriorating into a venue for people who have no idea what they are talking about (ie "Not a single Israeli was killed by Hamas prior to the attacks", where have you been for the last 20 years?) to give their opinions about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Please stop
This thread should be about media representation and PR.
On January 02 2009 13:24 IzzyCraft wrote: W.e Hamas shoots rockets at Israel's indiscriminately. Israel bombs targets known to have strong ties to Hamas =p It's what they get really. Israel is the strongest military force in that region and you attack them it's basically the 7 day war all over again.
Hell you wouldn't think this was evil if it was your country and your area having crude rockets fired at all the time. Hamas was elected to power in Gaza on the platform on death to Israel =p and guess what they do terrorize Israel again, =p. Guess what Israel does punishes them. Just think of it as your country would do the fucking same!
If my country was ruthless occupiers I suppose I would support that occupation and misleading labels like 'Terrorists' to justify our atrocities then I would support it, but for outsiders looking in it is obvious who the bad guys really are. It’s like having a bully beating a defenseless person with a crowbar, then the defenseless person slaps the bully on the leg. How dare you slap me says the bully, now you will feel my power and continues his ruthless violence.
Palestine has repeatedly asked for a ceasefire but Israel says no. Have no interest in peace only conquest.
How the fuck do you lightly go about discipline a country that is already 3rd world when it attacks you =p I don't think trade embargoes do too much to them=p. I look at it like a midget picking a fight with a giant yeah sure people are like wow giant that's messed up you fucked up the midget but I take a look at it and what I see if the midget starting shit. You can't go through life letting people step on you because you are suppose to supposedly be the bigger man and you can take it a country doesn't work like that.
Good analogy killing people is like slapping a strong guy. And a strong guy with a crow bar is like tactical strikes on Hamas headquarters and other sites. Just because the county is weak does not mean it cannot be held accountable by its actions. So what we treat small weak country like retards now? Oh they are retarded so it's not their fault.
Oh yeah they are missiles just not guided or anything =p there is footage of security cam seeing a building top being blown off by one. The thing is 10 20 missiles don't do much dmg without good guidance or good power the one they fire can barely blow up a 2 story house. They are a poor country what do you expect from them.
It's more like the small guy saw the big guy with a crow bar and decided to yell death threats at him for a long time then starts to throw rocks at him. And then he gets his ass whopped because of it. But that doesn't stop the small guy and so he decided to spit in the big guy's face and shouts slurs while hitting and biting him and then gets his full on ass kicking.
Err it's like if Poland after it being separated from Germany in WWI1 attacks Germany for no other reason then it is Germany then gets taken over by Germany then several years later Germany lets Poland be Poland again and Poland attacks Germany again and same result. Just ignore the Nazi's and it works out just fine. Well maybe not the best but it's hard to get an history like example i mean the term peace in the middle east doesn't come from no where. Israeli gets harassed every like 7 years. And every time Israel kicks the shit out of the harasser it's just now the harasser is so pathetic to begin with it's kinda sad.
Israel does not have the luxury of being the kind type due to it's history it must never look weak else other major players in that area might start up a war with them again not some small strip in which is encircled in Israel's territory.
To the guy who changed my post, how dare you compare me to the Nazis for wanting to destroy the organizations responsible for constant fire on my family, my friends and me and the slaughtering of so many Israeli civilians in the last 15 years??
The Hamas calls for our demise, and constantly acts upon it to the best of his abilities. Blowing up buses, coffee shops, and for the last 8 years firing tens of thousands of rockets, recently also Grad missiles with 20 Kg explosives.
The one who said "Not a single Israeli was killed by Hamas prior to the attacks.." Read this list, go through all of it, (this is only from Sept 2000 not including the suicide bombers , and plenty other cold blood murders in the 90s, not to mention the enormous amount of attempts stopped by the IDF and the hundreds of thousands who are terrorized on a daily basis by the rocket attacks.)
Put "Hamas" in the find box and start counting the dead babies, children, women, men, young people and old people. While your at it put "Fatah" in the find box as well and see what they did , they and their leader Abu Mazen are shown as "moderate" through the western media, look what they've actually done in the last 15 years, I haven't heard any of them apologize for ANY of it.
Aug 9, 2001 - Giora Balash, 60, of Brazil; Zvika Golombek, 26, of Carmiel; Shoshana Yehudit Greenbaum, 31, of the U.S.; Tehila Maoz, 18, of Jerusalem; Frieda Mendelsohn, 62, of Jerusalem; Michal Raziel, 16, of Jerusalem; Malka Roth, 15, of Jerusalem; Mordechai Schijveschuurder, 43, of Neria; Tzira Schijveschuurder, 41, of Neria; Ra'aya Schijveschuurder, 14, of Neria; Avraham Yitzhak Schijveschuurder, 4, of Neria; Hemda Schijveschuurder, 2, of Neria; Lily Shimashvili, 33, of Jerusalem; Tamara Shimashvili, 8, of Jerusalem; and Yocheved Shoshan, 10, of Jerusalem were killed and about 130 injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria on the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
On January 02 2009 19:24 Locke. wrote: To the guy who changed my post, how dare you compare me to the Nazis for wanting to destroy the organizations responsible for constant fire on my family, my friends and me and the slaughtering of so many Israeli civilians in the last 15 years?? .
lol, you guys have been constantly bombing the shit out of those poor bastards for like 40 years now.. you should realize by now that traffic accidents in israel takes more lives each day than random rockets fired from the border that apparently miss every time. Remember the holocaust? Why were your people getting killed back then? It was because they had no means to defend themselves, they didnt have an army, the equipment nor the method to stop the nazi... The palestinians today are just as defenceless as your people were back then.
On January 02 2009 19:24 Locke. wrote: To the guy who changed my post, how dare you compare me to the Nazis for wanting to destroy the organizations responsible for constant fire on my family, my friends and me and the slaughtering of so many Israeli civilians in the last 15 years?? .
lol, you guys have been constantly bombing the shit out of those poor bastards for like 40 years now.. you should realize by now that traffic accidents in Israel takes more lives each day than random rockets fired from the border that apparently miss every time. Remember the holocaust? Why were your people getting killed back then? It was because they had no means to defend themselves, they didn't have an army, the equipment nor the method to stop the nazi... The palestinians today are just as defenceless as your people were back then.
That post is just so fucking horrible looking at any kind of history of the region you made me get off my wii and break out my keyboard.
i don't know who compared lock to Nazi's my example was horrible i noticed after i typed it but i kept it in there for no reason and put a small discredit at the end.
If you take the history out of that region it's always been under war due to mostly land claim disputes that goes back thousands of years.
AND FOR THE FUCKING RECORD ISERAL has always used a counter only policy they have never been the one the start anything. (if you exclude the formation of Israel but mostly blame the U.N. for that) Israel has always been the one to hit only when struck first. T_T Gaza has an "army" if you will but the waste most of their shit on missiles yes they are missiles you can easily find footage of that shit crashing and blowing up a house or some random venue.
For fuck sakes if you are gonna compare them to nazi's you have to had a shit load of if statements to that. They are like Nazi's if you count launching missiles at them is like not enough poor Jewish people at the end of WW1 in Germany. God dam the Jewish people in Germany didn't like go around blowing up Germany. Gaza is hardly an Angel state and should not be looked at like it has done no harm.
What do you fucking think the missiles is all part of a conspiracy? Oh wait when Missiles from Gaza kills people that doesn't count. Or when they put missiles launch platforms in high population area on purpose that doesn't count to their fault either. What should Israel do send their troops into Gaza with riot gear it's a fucking country not a district with in Israel anymore.
On January 02 2009 19:24 Locke. wrote: To the guy who changed my post, how dare you compare me to the Nazis for wanting to destroy the organizations responsible for constant fire on my family, my friends and me and the slaughtering of so many Israeli civilians in the last 15 years?? .
lol, you guys have been constantly bombing the shit out of those poor bastards for like 40 years now.. you should realize by now that traffic accidents in israel takes more lives each day than random rockets fired from the border that apparently miss every time. Remember the holocaust? Why were your people getting killed back then? It was because they had no means to defend themselves, they didnt have an army, the equipment nor the method to stop the nazi... The palestinians today are just as defenceless as your people were back then.
Your analogy is terrible. The jews didn't start a fight with the nazis, they were simply targeted due to their ehtnicity. The Palestinians (extremists/terrorist groups) on the other hand want to destroy Israel while Israel wouldn't even touch the palestinians if they didn't attack them. Palestine are the aggressors, they want the land back and they'll keep fighting/bombing Israel until they get it or until they're destroyed. There can be no real peace otherwise (unless they suddenly get some sense, which I doubt). Israel is on the defensive, if they wanted to destroy gaza they would've done it a long time ago.
Israel has always taken the high rout in never starting a fight, but always ending it. What do you expect the military might of a country to be when the U.S. has always been generous in helping Israel out in supplying weapons etc.
yeah, sorry about the bad analogy.I was just trying to point out the fact that the Palestinians are a hopeless bunch, Israel could easily bomb the shit out of them daily if they wanted to and the Palestinians couldn't do much about it.
On January 02 2009 21:02 dinmsab wrote: yeah, sorry about the bad analogy.I was just trying to point out the fact that the Palestinians are a hopeless bunch, Israel could easily bomb the shit out of them daily if they wanted to and the Palestinians couldn't do much about it.
They're a hopeless bunch, but if they keep attacking Israel, even when it's not very effective, Israel can't just stand idly by and let them put the people under a constant state of terror and insecurity. They give them a warning, doesn't help, they give them another warning, doesn't help, they retaliate a bit, no good, they retaliate some more, no good either. The palestinians still don't stop, so they have to retaliate even more, there's no other way.
AND FOR THE FUCKING RECORD ISERAL has always used a counter only policy they have never been the one the start anything. (if you exclude the formation of Israel but mostly blame the U.N. for that) Israel has always been the one to hit only when struck first
Are you kidding me? You have lost your right to type in caps. It is understandable to be under and misinformed, but don't be so cocky about it.
who wants to talk about media representation and PR strategies concerning this conflict
I would like to see video's posted on youtube of a ground assault. It is very selective to say the IDF is not targeting civilians, and then post some video's of a few air assualts. Where are the video's of Jenin?. This is just clever propaganda.
Thanks for killing a thread worth reading vGl-CoW.
Threads where people write more than two sentences are after all bad.
Well, atleast we have the naruto, top ten videos of 2008 and zune's freeze threads, full of lols and hahahahas, which are all devoid of any negative emotions, just as it should be in a perfect world.
who wants to talk about media representation and PR strategies concerning this conflict
I would like to see video's posted on youtube of a ground assault. It is very selective to say the IDF is not targeting civilians, and then post some video's of a few air assualts. Where are the video's of Jenin?. This is just clever propaganda.
I don't think anyone can disagree with this. As someone already pointed out in this thread, the US used the very same strategy in the Gulf War to demonstrate just how smart their smart bombs were... of course they won't be showing the videos where the smart bombs go dumb and level a few civilian houses.
It's easy to see why the IDF is going for this communication strategy, as probably the main reason why they are catching a lot of flak in the international community is that they are inflicting severe civilian casualties, and nobody likes to see the innocent die. This is an effort to show everyone that they can pick off the Hamas without hurting anyone else, but I don't think anybody who isn't already very pro-Israel would be swayed by this kind of videos.
On January 03 2009 03:55 Hysterisk wrote: Thanks for killing a thread worth reading vGl-CoW.
Threads where people write more than two sentences are after all bad.
Well, atleast we have the naruto, top ten videos of 2008 and zune's freeze threads, full of lols and hahahahas, which are all devoid of any negative emotions, just as it should be in a perfect world.
We already have a thread discussing the conflict itself (and it sucks). The OP explicitly stated that this thread would be about the PR strategies and media representations surrounding the conflict, and Kennigit warned everybody that further derailment would lead to bans.
the US used the very same strategy in the Gulf War to demonstrate just how smart their smart bombs were...
We also used "embedded" reporters in Desert Storm, don't report body counts, and minimize images of caskets coming home. Vietnam was broadcast on T.V. every evening and it helped heighten the protest to war. The realities of war are far more significant than ideoligical nonsense and tit for tats about who fired first. A youtube channel obviously is not aimed at Israeli's, but rather critics of there aggression.
On January 03 2009 14:20 GMT Paul Reynolds, World Affairs Correspondent for the BBC wrote: Israel has tried to take the initiative in the propaganda war over Gaza but, in one important instance, its version has been seriously challenged.
The incident raises the question of how to interpret video taken from the air.
Israel released video of an air attack on 28 December, which appeared to show rockets being loaded onto a lorry. The truck and those close to it were then destroyed by a missile.
This was clear evidence, the Israelis said, of how accurate their strikes were and how well justified. A special unit it has set up to coordinate its informational plan put the video onto YouTube as part of its effort to use modern means of communications to get Israel's case across.
The YouTube video has a large caption on it saying "Grad missiles being loaded onto the Hamas vehicle." As of Saturday morning UK time, more than 260,000 people had watched it.
Different version
It turned out, however, that a 55-year-old Gaza resident named Ahmed Sanur, or Samur, claimed that the truck was his and that he and members of his family and his workers were moving oxygen cylinders from his workshop.
This workshop had been damaged when a building next door was bombed by the Israelis and he was afraid of looters, he said.
The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem put Mr Sanur's account on its website, together with a photograph of burned out oxygen cylinders.
Mr Sanur said that eight people, one of them his son, had been killed. He subsequently told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz: "These were not Hamas, they were our children... They were not Grad missiles.".
The Israeli response was that the "materiel" was being taken from a site that had stored weapons. The video remains on You Tube.
But the incident shows how an apparently definitive piece of video can turn into something much more doubtful.
It is reminiscent of an event in the Nato war against Serbia over Kosovo in 1999. In that case, a video taken from the air seemed to show a military convoy which was then attacked.
On the ground however it was discovered that the "trucks" were in fact tractors towing cartloads of civilian refugees, many of whom were killed.
Israel effort
The Israeli propaganda effort is being directed to achieve two main aims.
The first is to justify the air attacks. The second is to show that there is no humanitarian calamity in Gaza.
Both these aims are intended to place Israel in a strong position internationally and to enable its diplomacy to act as an umbrella to fend off calls for a ceasefire while the military operation unfolds.
Israel has pursued the first aim by being very active in getting its story across that Hamas is to blame. The sight of Hamas rockets streaking into Israel has been helpful in this respect.
It has also allowed trucks in with food aid and has stressed that it will not let people starve, even if they go short.
Israel appears to think its efforts are working.
One of its spokespeople, who has regularly appeared on the international media, Major Avital Leibovich, said: "Quite a few outlets are very favourable to Israel."
Ban on foreign media
Israel has bolstered its approach by banning foreign correspondents from Gaza, despite a ruling from the Israeli Supreme Court.
The Arab television news channel Al Jazeera is operating there and its reports have been graphic and have affected opinion across the Arab world. The BBC also has its local bureau hard at work.
But the absence of reporters from major organisations has meant, for example, that Mr Samur's story has not been as widely told as it probably would have been, or his account subject to an on-the-spot examination.
Meanwhile Israel has received good coverage of the threats and damage to its own towns and communities.
Whether Israel retains any propaganda initiative is not all certain. Pictures of dead and wounded children have undermined its claim to pinpoint accuracy and the longer this goes on, the greater the potential for world public opinion to swing against it, with diplomatic pressure building for a cessation.
Its presentational problems would be hugely increased if it engaged in a ground operation, which would bring with it more pictures of death and destruction.
Update: several readers have e-mailed to ask whether I believe Hamas. One said I had "bought into" Hamas propaganda. Another that I should have dealt with Hamas' claims: "What's missing speaks volumes about your one-sidedness."
I do not believe anyone's "propaganda." We seek to verify all claims, from whatever source. One of the main claims in Gaza at the moment is the serious situation for the population. Having reported from Gaza many times over the years, I know how crowded parts of it are and how dependent the people are on food aid from the UN. This means they have no other source of supply but equally, if the system is working, they should be getting enough to get by on. The problem is that foreign correspondents cannot get in to establish the exact situation for themselves.
The Gazan says they were oxygen cylinders. But Israeli's military said the items, whatever they were, were taken from a place that stores weapons. That's the problem with terrorism in that area. The civilian life is intertwined with the violent terrorist activity, it becomes nigh impossible to differentiate the terrorists from the populace sometimes. I think Israel has mitigated this rather well by sending out pamphlets and warnings to civilians in the area before striking. Nobody living in that area is ignorant to the Hamas activities, and so when they live amongst them, they have to expect some collateral damage. The civilians have responsibility, too.
If I got a letter from the Israeli government saying that my house was going to be bombed tomorrow because there was a terrorist organization in my neighborhood I sure as hell wouldn't load long cylindrical objects onto a truck that day.
@EmeraldSparks Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Very often, stories are fabricated because no one actually bothers to verify the claims. In the case of this strike it is difficult to tell. The fact that these objects where taken from a place known to store weapons makes me dubious of this new information. But of course it is still possible.
So, an oxigen cannister takes a direct hit from a missile and looks like that? A little dirty, not even a dent? Yeah right. This reminds me of when there was a claim that Israel had blown up a UN ambulance (which it denied), then produced a picture of a vehicle with a large rust hole in the roof.
The picture is a fake. That doesn't mean that the story is false of course, there is no way of knowing for sure.
EDIT spelling
RE EDIT a common propaganda strategy on the palestinian side is transforming anyone who is killed by Israel into a civilian. It is very easy: all you say is "Israel lies, these were civilians", the media repeats it, and even if they ever make a correction no one notices. Again, I don't know if that is the case here.
EDIT^3
I found the information on the ambulance case. I remembered wrong, it was a Red Cross ambulance during the recent war with Hezbollah. Here is the obvious forgery given as proof to the false claim of Israel targetting the vehicle that was reported all over the place unchallenged:
On January 01 2009 15:07 Underwhelmed wrote: Apparently, using YouTube is now a strategy of the Israeli government.
IMO it shows an openness about disclosure of targeting methods that hasn't ever been seen in warfare. We need to see more of this.
If a state-controlled media outlet is your idea of "open". I don't trust the Israeli government (or indeed, any entity) to not hide distasteful things they might do. For all you know, they could be indiscriminately demolishing Palestinian homes with bulldozers, which would never be disclosed that YouTube channel.
Edit: Typo
SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT. LOGICAL FALLACY DETECTED. POST IGNORED.
By replying you're not ignoring it, and by analyzing its logical fallacy you're definitely not ignoring it but looked deep into it and analyzed its structures.
On January 01 2009 17:40 Locke. wrote: Israel should destroy the Hamas as completely as possible and eliminate the threat on its people, sadly this government won't do that, it is doing this operation mostly because election is coming and they want us to forget how they made us to be sitting ducks for 8 years.
For us Israelis it's a disgrace to have someone like Tzipi Livni, who has much worse English than me, as our foreign minister (not to mention the actual things she says which many times convey defeatism and a constant need to apologize for Israel's need to defend its civilians).
Netanyahu is doing a much better work than her. He recently broke a record when he was interviewed 50 times in ONE weekend in the US. Our country can show the situation and our point of view much better than it is doing right now. Showing all the horrors of the Hamas regime including against their own people, their murderous training and education system, showing the enormous damage Hamas has caused Israel since the suicide bombers in the 90s to the last 8 years of almost constant rocket attacks on Israel.
It wasn't until you made this post that I realized you are batshit insane.
Eh I imagine he has a lot more at stake in the conflict than we do, it's a lot harder to look at stuff objectively when you're so involved.
So yes that post is extremely inflammatory and wrong, but I think you can let it slide. It's like how american's went after 9/11, "kill all the arab's" or whatever. It's wrong to say that but people lose sight of it when stuff is so close to you.
How's his post wrong or inflammatory??
Well he's basically advocating the destruction of human beings..which i would define as wrong...but like I said it's a moot point due to his perspective.
I don't know who you hang out with but since when was it ever appropriate to think or say "kill all the arabs"? o_o And how does such an offensive phrase equate with anything Locke has posted?
It's not appropriate, I'm equating his viewpoint to the fever of post 9/11 comments made by some choice Americans. It's not the same comment, but I'm saying these comments were made when people felt threatened in their homes, Locke's comments were made by someone who feels threatened in his own home. I'm not saying he has the same level of it, I was just drawing a similarity.
The "destruction" of "humanbeings" who are about to kill or at least help to kill civilians is appropriate. Stop judging this war like it was civil war, it's not. Only cause the palestineans lack a well trained and equipped force they are still soldiers and if soldiers die in a war it has nothing to do with "destroying humanbeings". War has been like that forever and ever will be.
I don't care much about Israel and Palestine, imo they should just make peace and stop killing each other. But then it comes to my mind that the ruling powers of Palestine, which are democratically elected which means at least half of the palestineans stand behind whats going on, refuse to make peace with Israel. Next argument would most likely be "but Israel responds to attacks with attacks themselves". You just have to agree that this is stupid. Responding to an attack means defense and thats all what Israel does from my point of view.
The PR stuff is really interesting. You saw some of this with the Russian-Georgia war where Georgia was able to gain sympathy because they were so much more adept at handling the media. There were high level Georgians on CNN every other hour able to get their point of view across while Russia remained quiet. Opinion polls in America (and other western countries) showed Russia at fault when the real situation was much more complicated. I don't know the effects of this on policy, but politicians are driven by popular consensus.
I don't think this was lost on the Israelis. Since their land invasion of Gaza began yesterday there have been one high level cabinet member after another on American TV repeating the same talking points. This is about the missiles and not removing Hamas, not targeting the civilians, etc.. We'll see how it plays out, but Israel has another huge advantage over the Palestinians.
it is difficult to separate the interpretation of media material from the merits of the conflict itself. suppose one side of the conflict is deemed virtuous or justified, their side of the story will receive proportionate sympathy and is less susceptible to the charge of propaganda. without a sufficient understanding of the underlying conflict, there is not much to talk about in the media. we know that either the israelis are telling a good story, or not, but to actually decide on one of the two, we have to first verify whether their story is right and just. and that is not possible without debating the conflict itself.
From a media perspective, I believe that the main purpose of this is to desensitize people into into believing that war is no big deal. Just like the tv show 24 desensitizes people into believing torture is no big deal.
the main impact of embedded reporters and stuff like this is not to desensitize but to make people feel that they have gotten an intimate and accurate story, because after all, the reporters are right on the battlefield so they couldn't possibly miss anything!
EPT
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