On December 31 2008 02:14 Xeris wrote: First off - if you look at international law, any retaliation with force, if it's going to be claimed to be out of self defense should hold to this principle: the response must be proportional to the offense. So, less than 20 Israelis (I think the official word is that Israel's attacks are prompted by a bombing that killed TWO people) being killed should not warrant an all out invasion of Gaza and the deaths of over 350 people (probably more by the time this is all over with).
To be honest I think this is just a flaunting of Israeli power - they feel like they can do whatever the fuck they want in the Middle East because they have powerful allies (United States, for example) and not suffer any consequences. Think the United Nations or any major group is going to really stand up AGAINST Israel? Nobody but Iran has the balls to do it. Israel is going to carry out this war, cause a fuckton of damage, then retreat back into Israel where they will not feel any repercussions and just continue as they have.
It's pretty bullshit the position that Israel is in, being like the little kid on the block with a big badass brother so nobody can mess with them. Technically what they are doing is illegal according to international law, but nobody's going to do anything about it.
Sure, the body counts may not be exactly the same, but Israel has interpreted Hamas as a threat that would justify preemptively striking. Whether this justification is appropriate or not is another matter. However, it is impossible to make this body count comparison because both countries do not know the potential results of the conflict and how the other side will respond. As a result, both sides assume the worst and attack with a greater force.
On December 30 2008 22:31 n.DieJokes wrote: 3. Israel was bombarded by rockets (and still is, something like a dozen were shot yesterday), breaking the peace treaty, not the other way around, and if I recall in exchange for that peace thousands of Israeli settlers were ripped from their homes
. Israel is a fraction of what it was (size), I never seen a country so bent on its own destruction.
6. What this is deceitful bullshit, trying to play the victim, they say in their press conferences(the ones on youtube) that they refuse to bend in their ideology, if they're not going to make any concessions what do they expect to happen? I think the real fucked up thing is that they refuse to acknowledge Israels right to exist! As if they're less than human, trespassers, whose swift death is the divine will. Someday, when the all the smoke and mirrors fall down, the world will see the backwards arab world for what it is.
And I fairly biased as well, both my brother and sister live in Israel along with my 2 nieces.
How many people have been killed by rocket fire into Israel? I am having trouble finding a good link right now, but I know I have read that in the past 8 years the number is somewhere around 20. In just the past few days the Gaza death toll is over 350, not including injuries. The NYTimes is reporting that about 60 of which have been civilians(number is from the UN). The same lopsided comparison came be made with how many people have had to flee there homes. Since 1967, literally thousands of homes have been destroyed. Home demolition is essentially Israeli policy.
My point is not to justify either sides actions, but to point out the extreme lopsided nature of the conflict. That said, to point to this information as evidence of Israel as the victim not very compelling.
The idea that Israel is a fraction of the size it was, is just false. Israel expands its territory through land settlements. Plus, there territory expanded in the 1967 war. Just look at a map of Israel from 1948 to today. If you are talking about pre-1948 territory, that is a different discussion.
If you have personal bias towards Israel that is understandable, but I think your connections to Israel could be better used giving us inside information that is not readily available to us through the news media.
Dont talk about six-day war, it is full of failure for arabic countries, the casualities was like 800 soliders for Israel, and 22000 soldiers and 400 aircraft? Israel just won all battles here and surely their territory will be expanded.
Your country Iran is sponsering and training the murderous Hamas and Hizbollah. It is not a "neutral" side in the conflict - it is responsible for the bombing of Israel. You can say what your country stands for (though I would be ashamed of Ahmadinijad if I were you) but don't paint it as if you represent some sort of global justice, that's ridiculous. Iran is sponsoring 2 huge terror regimes which are responsible for horrific crimes (to their own population as well). The people in Gaza live in a ruthless and violent dictatorship sponsored by your country Iran, you shouldn't be proud of that as well, but hey in a sense your country is also sort of a dictatorship so you probably don't see much problem with the Hamas throwing their opposition from high buildings and shooting their brothers in the knees for opposing their rule.
The Hamas is attacking Israeli citizens and soldiers for years, it says that Israel should be completely destroyed and refuses to even acknowledge Israel's existence. Israel has every right to completely destroy that murderous regime. The sad thing is we didn't do it years ago when they were much smaller, that would have minimized the casualties on both sides.
On December 31 2008 02:14 Xeris wrote: First off - if you look at international law, any retaliation with force, if it's going to be claimed to be out of self defense should hold to this principle: the response must be proportional to the offense. So, less than 20 Israelis (I think the official word is that Israel's attacks are prompted by a bombing that killed TWO people) being killed should not warrant an all out invasion of Gaza and the deaths of over 350 people (probably more by the time this is all over with).
To be honest I think this is just a flaunting of Israeli power - they feel like they can do whatever the fuck they want in the Middle East because they have powerful allies (United States, for example) and not suffer any consequences. Think the United Nations or any major group is going to really stand up AGAINST Israel? Nobody but Iran has the balls to do it. Israel is going to carry out this war, cause a fuckton of damage, then retreat back into Israel where they will not feel any repercussions and just continue as they have.
It's pretty bullshit the position that Israel is in, being like the little kid on the block with a big badass brother so nobody can mess with them. Technically what they are doing is illegal according to international law, but nobody's going to do anything about it.
Sure, the body counts may not be exactly the same, but Israel has interpreted Hamas as a threat that would justify preemptively striking. Whether this justification is appropriate or not is another matter. However, it is impossible to make this body count comparison because both countries do not know the potential results of the conflict and how the other side will respond. As a result, both sides assume the worst and attack with a greater force.
In the current political situation in Israel there is absolutely no way that Israel would have attacked Hamas if it wouldn't constantly fire rockets at Israel (even during the so called cease fire). Their attacks haven't been preemptive (they were aimed at civillians not the army) those attacks are what caused this recent operation.
I used to be pro-palestinian and dislike Israel for their brutality. Then I spent some time in muslim-controlled countries for work, the last one being Sudan.
Now I'm a random muslim hater and find myself rooting for Israel.
Pretty sad but I can't help it. I think a lot of westerners side with Israel for this reason. Life in muslim-controlled countries is just so fucking different, and, let's say it, looks so fucking terrible for anyone used to western's, that you feel compelled to fight against it, while Judaism doesn't feel as threatening.
Your country Iran is sponsering and training the murderous Hamas and Hizbollah. It is not a "neutral" side in the conflict - it is responsible for the bombing of Israel. You can say what your country stands for (though I would be ashamed of Ahmadinijad if I were you) but don't paint it as if you represent some sort of global justice, that's ridiculous. Iran is sponsoring 2 huge terror regimes which are responsible for horrific crimes (to their own population as well). The people in Gaza live in a ruthless and violent dictatorship sponsored by your country Iran, you shouldn't be proud of that as well, but hey in a sense your country is also sort of a dictatorship so you probably don't see much problem with the Hamas throwing their opposition from high buildings and shooting their brothers in the knees for opposing their rule.
The Hamas is attacking Israeli citizens and soldiers for years, it says that Israel should be completely destroyed and refuses to even acknowledge Israel's existence. Israel has every right to completely destroy that murderous regime. The sad thing is we didn't do it years ago when they were much smaller, that would have minimized the casualties on both sides.
You're making out that just because Xeris is from Iran he's not allowed to criticize Israel in anyway and that he is complicit with Ahmadinijad's regime. You don't know all his political views, it's ridiculous to character-assassinate him just because he is Iranian.
Your country Iran is sponsering and training the murderous Hamas and Hizbollah. It is not a "neutral" side in the conflict - it is responsible for the bombing of Israel. You can say what your country stands for (though I would be ashamed of Ahmadinijad if I were you) but don't paint it as if you represent some sort of global justice, that's ridiculous. Iran is sponsoring 2 huge terror regimes which are responsible for horrific crimes (to their own population as well). The people in Gaza live in a ruthless and violent dictatorship sponsored by your country Iran, you shouldn't be proud of that as well, but hey in a sense your country is also sort of a dictatorship so you probably don't see much problem with the Hamas throwing their opposition from high buildings and shooting their brothers in the knees for opposing their rule.
The Hamas is attacking Israeli citizens and soldiers for years, it says that Israel should be completely destroyed and refuses to even acknowledge Israel's existence. Israel has every right to completely destroy that murderous regime. The sad thing is we didn't do it years ago when they were much smaller, that would have minimized the casualties on both sides.
I'm not proud of Ahmadinejad because he's a pretty poor President. And I didn't say that Iran is some sort of "global justice" - I said that no other country really is going to have the balls to call out Israel for what it's doing.
In this scenario, the gravity of Israel's attacks are unjustified. Both sides have been bombing and harassing each other for YEARS, why does Israel all of a sudden invade Gaza? They are just as guilty as Hamas of bombing and other stuff.
On December 31 2008 02:39 Rev0lution wrote: Also Israel is 10x more military capable than Hamas, if anything this is just like when Russia invaded Georgia. But you don't see American media decrying Israel's bullying. No, they are "defending themselves" by invading another country. See the irony?
But Russia when it invades another country is evil and bullying. See the difference?
I dont side with either side, Hamas are scum who hide behind civilians to stir international outcry and Israel is a bully for bombing the shit out of civilians.
It's sad that people still fight over ancients books and supposedly holy lands. Fuck them both.
those attacks are what caused this recent operation.
Haaretz has reported this operation has been planned for 6 months. You could say that those attacks spawned the start of the operation, but you can't say they caused them. Besides, have these type of operations actually ever diminished the amount of rocket attacks into Israel? To say that these operations are a solution to the problem just does not hold up to fact.
Your country Iran is sponsering and training the murderous Hamas and Hizbollah. It is not a "neutral" side in the conflict - it is responsible for the bombing of Israel. You can say what your country stands for (though I would be ashamed of Ahmadinijad if I were you) but don't paint it as if you represent some sort of global justice, that's ridiculous. Iran is sponsoring 2 huge terror regimes which are responsible for horrific crimes (to their own population as well). The people in Gaza live in a ruthless and violent dictatorship sponsored by your country Iran, you shouldn't be proud of that as well, but hey in a sense your country is also sort of a dictatorship so you probably don't see much problem with the Hamas throwing their opposition from high buildings and shooting their brothers in the knees for opposing their rule.
The Hamas is attacking Israeli citizens and soldiers for years, it says that Israel should be completely destroyed and refuses to even acknowledge Israel's existence. Israel has every right to completely destroy that murderous regime. The sad thing is we didn't do it years ago when they were much smaller, that would have minimized the casualties on both sides.
I'm not proud of Ahmadinejad because he's a pretty poor President. And I didn't say that Iran is some sort of "global justice" - I said that no other country really is going to have the balls to call out Israel for what it's doing.
In this scenario, the gravity of Israel's attacks are unjustified. Both sides have been bombing and harassing each other for YEARS, why does Israel all of a sudden invade Gaza? They are just as guilty as Hamas of bombing and other stuff.
In one thing you are correct it's hard to find a logical explenation why Israel is attacking just now and not years ago as it should have done. It is because our leaders are betraying us and are moving Israel toward it's destruction even now it seems this operation isn't really meant to destroy the Hamas but to win them the election..
On a different note tell me what would Iran do if a group of people started bombing its civillians and army, firing tens of thousands of rockets on its cities for an extended period of time. I'll tell you what they would do they would kill each one of them and the rest would go to jail for a very long time.
Nobody has a right to fire rockets on Israeli cities. Organizations who decides that this is their policy should be completely destroyed.
Your country Iran is sponsering and training the murderous Hamas and Hizbollah. It is not a "neutral" side in the conflict - it is responsible for the bombing of Israel. You can say what your country stands for (though I would be ashamed of Ahmadinijad if I were you) but don't paint it as if you represent some sort of global justice, that's ridiculous. Iran is sponsoring 2 huge terror regimes which are responsible for horrific crimes (to their own population as well). The people in Gaza live in a ruthless and violent dictatorship sponsored by your country Iran, you shouldn't be proud of that as well, but hey in a sense your country is also sort of a dictatorship so you probably don't see much problem with the Hamas throwing their opposition from high buildings and shooting their brothers in the knees for opposing their rule.
The Hamas is attacking Israeli citizens and soldiers for years, it says that Israel should be completely destroyed and refuses to even acknowledge Israel's existence. Israel has every right to completely destroy that murderous regime. The sad thing is we didn't do it years ago when they were much smaller, that would have minimized the casualties on both sides.
I'm not proud of Ahmadinejad because he's a pretty poor President. And I didn't say that Iran is some sort of "global justice" - I said that no other country really is going to have the balls to call out Israel for what it's doing.
In this scenario, the gravity of Israel's attacks are unjustified. Both sides have been bombing and harassing each other for YEARS, why does Israel all of a sudden invade Gaza? They are just as guilty as Hamas of bombing and other stuff.
In one thing you are correct it's hard to find a logical explenation why Israel is attacking just now and not years ago as it should have done. It is because our leaders are betraying us and are moving Israel toward it's destruction even now it seems this operation isn't really meant to destroy the Hamas but to win them the election..
On a different note tell me what would Iran do if a group of people started bombing its civillians and army, firing tens of thousands of rockets on its cities for an extended period of time. I'll tell you what they would do they would kill each one of them and the rest would go to jail for a very long time.
Nobody has a right to fire rockets on Israeli cities. Organizations who decides that this is their policy should be completely destroyed.
Iran would retaliate. The difference is ... Iran is not bombing anybody. Israel has bombed Gaza before - Gaza bombs Israel. They have been going back and forth for MANY YEARS. This is why Israel's sudden aggression is really unjustified. They either should have attacked years ago when they were first bombed, or should just cancel the violence. Israel is just as guilty as Hamas in their relations, because neither of them has moved towards peace. But in this specific case, Israel is in the wrong I believe.
those attacks are what caused this recent operation.
Haaretz has reported this operation has been planned for 6 months. You could say that those attacks spawned the start of the operation, but you can't say they caused them. Besides, have these type of operations actually ever diminished the amount of rocket attacks into Israel? To say that these operations are a solution to the problem just does not hold up to fact.
TeCh, I am not saying Israel didn't ignore it's population in the south for very long. Our politicians left them for 8 years defensless under constant terror attacks.
Israel is run nowadays by such corrupt cowards that if Israel wasn't pushed to do something by constant rocket attacks we would have unfortunately stayed passive and allowed Gaza to become stronger (which I am sure they'll continue to do after this operation is over).
As for your question, yes they have. And we didn't yet do enough. In Nebules, Beit Lehem, Kalkylia etc there are many palestines yet they don't go around firing rockets at us. Why is that? We are much more in control in there (though far from enough) and they cannot smuggle weapons as freely as they can in Gaza (through egypy). We should do the same thing in Gaza.
Unfortunately the language that works in our area is that of fear and violence.
On December 31 2008 02:14 Xeris wrote: First off - if you look at international law, any retaliation with force, if it's going to be claimed to be out of self defense should hold to this principle: the response must be proportional to the offense. So, less than 20 Israelis (I think the official word is that Israel's attacks are prompted by a bombing that killed TWO people) being killed should not warrant an all out invasion of Gaza and the deaths of over 350 people (probably more by the time this is all over with).
To be honest I think this is just a flaunting of Israeli power - they feel like they can do whatever the fuck they want in the Middle East because they have powerful allies (United States, for example) and not suffer any consequences. Think the United Nations or any major group is going to really stand up AGAINST Israel? Nobody but Iran has the balls to do it. Israel is going to carry out this war, cause a fuckton of damage, then retreat back into Israel where they will not feel any repercussions and just continue as they have.
It's pretty bullshit the position that Israel is in, being like the little kid on the block with a big badass brother so nobody can mess with them. Technically what they are doing is illegal according to international law, but nobody's going to do anything about it.
This is exactly what I think too. It's such a joke that Isreal gets attacked by home-made pipe bombs filled with scrap metal and retaliate with air strikes.
It is because our leaders are betraying us and are moving Israel toward it's destruction
Can you elaborate on that?
Yes.
Before Oslo "Peace" agreement the casualties in Israel from Palestinian aggression where very minor. They threw rocks, they stabbed from time to time but overall it took very little army presence, there were NO checkpoints and many of the Palestines worked in Israel (many worked in Jewish settlments btw).
Oslo gave the PLO the status of an autonomy, it provided them with huge amounts of Israeli weapons which were irnoically used to fire on us, the casualties grew. It gave them the organizational and financial abillities to create very large terrorist attacks. Directly after Oslo the Palestinians started exploding in buses all over Israel killing hundreds and the checkpoints where made to defend against that.
Israeli leaders Shimon Peres, Rabin etc. gave Arafat the status of a legitimate leader even though he was directly responsible for the terrorist attacks on Israel and openly called for the taking over of Tel Aviv, Haifa and of course Jerusalem using force.
In 2005 while Israel was under missile attacks, instead of focusing our efforts in stopping that, our government spent all its resources (and 2 years of training the army and the police just towards that) in destroying Gush Katif and throwing the Jews from there (btw without giving them an alternative for their destroyed houses and work places), as the palestinian rocket attacks continued and there was no agreement. They also gave the Hamas the area between Gaza and Egypt allowing them to freely transfer huge amounts of weapons into Gaza thus harming Israel security even more. The crazy rationale for the disengagment was that if they'll shoot even one rocket after we left Gush Katif we'll respond straight away and destroy the threat. needless to say the next morning the rockets continued and the day after as well for another 3 years our leaders didn't do anything substantial in response to protect South Israel from the attacks on it.
Olmert, Zipi Livni, Barack and all those are proposing give the Golan Heights to the Syrians putting the north in grave danger, evacuating Judea and Samarea thus putting Tel Aviv and Jerusalem under direct missile threat as well. In short bringing about the destruction of Israel.
To write a really specific account of the treason of the leaders in Israel would take a lot of time but this are some of the highlights.
On December 30 2008 22:01 ManBearPig wrote: Samuel P. Huntington's book has been criticized over and over in professional circles (historians etc), his theory is not at all credible. The distinction between a 'western civilization' as a whole and an 'arab civilization' as a whole, for instance, is too simplistic. Conflicts are very complex and multiple factors play a role, you can't simply reduce them to something as simple as a clash of civilizations. I see you (OP) gave a more elaborate and complex account of what is going on, so there is no need for this widely unaccepted theory.
aigh
maybe i should've just left out the clash of civilizations part. as i've said before, i realize it's a huge oversimplification. in fact, i wrote a 12 page paper way back when debunking it. i mostly brought it up because it provides some appropriate context and because the guy just died yesterday, and I didn't feel like marginalizing his work just then.
i haven't gotten to watch the video, maybe after i get out of bed and take a shower.
I'd like for people to understand that one of the reasons I brought in the civilizations thing is because I think it's a valuable approach to understanding how our cultural bias leads to a skewed interpretation of events. I was trying to say that unless we step out of this cultural bias and treat the israeli-palestinian conflict like any other world conflict, THEN we can make progress towards peace. I am very neutral on the conflict (like I am on most things) but my view is that the main reason we're not getting anywhere is because Israel has the backing of Western civilization, and has much less incentive to negotiate. The same kind of power imbalance, for example, is one of the reasons why sending a "special envoy" to deal with the Indian Pakistani conflict is a bad idea -- it'll only bolster the Pakistanis and make them think they can get away with more because it has US backing. My position isn't a stance on the morality of Israel's actions: I don't blame their leaders for reacting rationally. There are NO LEADERS in the world that will stand by while their citizens are under fire. If the Palestinians and Jews traded places, the SAME WOULD HAPPEN.
p.s. mods, this thread is gonna get nasty, but I'm hoping you won't close it because a.) it took me an hour to write b.) i think the diversity of points of view is fascinating c.) because you can just ban assholes like blackstar instead
Locke., essentially you think Israel has not been aggressive enough and that has left Israel vulnerable? What do you think would be enough? What do think should be the balance between being aggressive against Hamas, while not collectively punishing the entire population? (these are honest questions)
More concisely, I think it's stupid when people spend so much effort figuring out who to blame. That's like trying to find someone in particular to blame for the economic crisis. The only thing to blame is the invisible hand. Ok, and maybe Alan Greenspan, but that's not the point. Both sides are responding rationally to perceived threats. The sooner we can move past retribution and into substantial issues like settlements, water rights, borders, etc, the sooner we can build peace for BOTH sides.
EPT
