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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:40 Sadist wrote: ROFL I havent seen this one He FOR REAL needs a beating after being on TV a SECOND time. Hitting his grandma?? She has to sleep with her car keys, ROFL. Did she say "walmark"?  | ||
Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:46 Equinox_kr wrote: I think that kid was pampered way too much when he was younger, any kid with a normal upbringing can't be THAT retarded. Seriously, take a year and do Teach for America in the inner cities. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 12:32 Slaughter)BiO wrote: Oh and Frits and Co who are against beating, the tone of your posts are probably HIGHLY offensive considering your basically saying the majority of the people here have shitty parents. Just because you currently studying psych does not give you some hardcore insider info on parenting and to make judgments about parents that do use physical discipline. Every child is different and will respond different to the environment they are raised in. First of all, yes it does. And I only mentioned it because someone asked me, I am not basing my argument on that fact at all. And I am pointing out why not beating your kids is a better way of raising your children, I am using sensible arguments unlike people like CM who are basing their information on nothing. I am not judging anyone, unless someone here chooses to hit your kids while knowing the information mentioned here. And no shit that every child is different, that doesn't change the fact that there are certain things that influence every child in the same way, just in different doses. Hitting kids is something that has been proven to inspire significantly more violence in kids, while there are plenty of peaceful alternatives. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 12:57 Klogon wrote: Let me speak from experience when I say that the time delay between doing something fucking stupid as a kid and getting hit a few hours later when you're at home doesn't make you forget what you did. The whole damn time, I'm scared shitless and thinking about it the whole time. I'm regretting it, and when my parents do hit me, they make me say my mistakes so I know what I'm getting punished for. After the spanking, they'll give me a hug, tell me they love me, and then take care of me. In theory, it looks as if it will only confuse a child, but you know when you are being loved and when you deserved it. It takes good parenting to make sure the child understands both sides to this. To say spanking is never good is ignorant. There are some kids that it definitely helps with. And to say spanking is always necessary is also ignorant. When it comes down to it, its just overall good parenting that will result in good children, and its the parents call how to deal with their children properly. Hopefully they are smart enough to know how to deal with it instead of using a spanking as a way of "getting back" at the kid and releasing their frustrations, as the child definitely knows when this is happening. The parent needs to have his/her head screwed on properly first before doing any hitting. But then again, the parent needs to have his life together to properly raise a good kid most of the time anyways, or the kid will just go the way of the parent. Look, I am not saying that hitting your kid once in awhile makes you a terrible parent by definition. I am saying that it can always be avoided. You are making it sound as if I think that hitting kids is always bad and will fuck a kid up, ofcourse a kid can handle a little spanking. But human behavior is 95% unconscious, if a parent is used to beating his kid everytime it does something wrong, it will always go for for the easy way. That's the bigger picture here. My message is that people generally need to be more focussed on dealing with their kids more peacefully. Besides, think about it. You can't make a policy to hit your kids sometimes for stuff and other times try to talk it out. You either have a general policy to avoid hitting your kids or not. That doesn't mean there won't ever be any exceptions. | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
Take a step back from the psychological thinking and think instead of it in an economics model. You, the parent, are the government. The kid is the people. In order to best serve the people, you need to set rules. Some people (kids) cross a line that shouldn't be crossed, so negative reinforcement must unfortunately be there in the form of prisons (and in our case, spankings). They are positively reinforced when working hard by a good, steady income. Each child has their own utility functions (or in non-econ lingo, ways of deriving pleasure). And everything has a price to it, may it be an price of time of leisure or cash, or even comfort. By letting the kid know that there is the possibility of negative reinforcement implicitly increases the price of doing such a bad action. For if the personal utility the child gets from doing the bad is greater than the utility of your reward, he'll choose the bad everytime. There are two ways to decrease this gap: increase the price of him doing such activity with negative reinforcement or to increase the reward significantly. Sometimes, both are needed. You can even bring in political science theory into this. Take the stance US takes on Taiwan. The fact that we will not rule out using extreme force in the chance that China gets really aggressive with Taiwan DETERS any action significantly from China to take over Taiwan. Sure, we didn't explicitly say it, but we didn't rule it out. Once the child knows you've ruled out physical punishment, some children may be more bold in what they do because the price they pay is significantly less for such actions. Sure, we can positively reinforce China with economic incentives as the trade will benefit them greatly, but the negative reinforcement helps a lot in keeping them in line. EDIT: The main point is that every child is different. So taking the government example, just because you never murdered anybody doesn't mean we don't need a prison system and life-sentences for people who do. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
fuck is it 5:30 am already I really need to sleep lol | ||
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Hippopotamus
1914 Posts
It seems the arguments against corporal punishment are: 1. Buttspanking = sexual. Thankfully this one hasn't shown up yet in this thread. 2. Corporal punishment is a model for violent behavior. 3. Corporal punishment is ineffective. I'm just going to throw out the first argument because it's idiotic. There's no proof for this. The psychologist who made this argument just speculated on it one century ago: it's time to let go of this kind of bullshit. Second argument seems plausible, but I find it amusing that these same people would elsewhere argue against strict game and television control. In fact, I think our common experience shows us that just as we don't take Starcraft as a model for our behavior, we do not take corporal punishment as a model for our behavior. Studies haven't found Chinese people to be more aggressive although in Chinese culture corporal punishment is widely used. Now some would claim that Chinese children who were never physically punished were less aggressive, but this ignores the fact that more aggressive children tend to get punished more. In general, if you're opposed to the lunatics who want children shielded from all violence in games, then you should oppose arguments against corporal punishment as cause of aggression. Third argument is... true. BUT, this applies to the same extent to all punishment. All punishment, physical or not, just teaches "you shouldn't have done that". When kids are small, they don't get it at all. Whether it's a time out or a slap, all that punishment accomplishes is just stopping. It hardly prevents future misbehavior in little kids. When they grow up, then they understand the consequences and understand that punishment teaches "don't do this in future" but then it's a matter of the cost-benefit analysis. In the cost-benefit analysis spanking and losing your "privileges" both stand as just risk variables unconsciously weighed against the possible reward of misbehavior (after all, why misbehave if not for a perceived reward?). If you actually want to influence behavior, the only reliable way to do it is by building up positive behavior. Not understanding this is basically the story of the failure of American society. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On December 24 2008 13:04 Frits wrote: Hitting kids is something that has been proven to inspire significantly more violence in kids, while there are plenty of peaceful alternatives. proof plox | ||
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SingletonWilliam
United States664 Posts
I was hit, and that means slapped in the face one or more times, for doing anything bad. I especially remember getting slapped every time I burped and I haven't burped out loud in 5ish years. All it did was give me a worse attitude. I guess that was how my Mom tried to fill in the father role I didn't have because it was the same for her growing up. I'm not sure how I'm going to raise my kids, I've never seen an alternative style. But I don't think beating your kids is a good idea. It just gave me a worse attitude, and when I turned 11/12 getting slapped did nothing more than make me laugh. I couldn't help but crack up for some reason. It pissed my Mom off enough for her to try to find new ways to keep me in line, like Indian rug burns, but after a week of whatever new punishment she came up with I just smiled and laughed at her. I still laugh when I get slapped these days, and I'm not sure if its a conditioned response or if its just funny. I think it changes from person to person, but I don't want my kids to turn out like me and I don't want myself to turn out like my parents. I feel there needs to be an authority figure, but I don't know if violence is gonna do it. Getting hit as a kid just gave me the impression that violence was ok and I got into fights for the first 12 years of my life before I got my head on straight. Its also weird how I feel I might have been mistreated, but there are still people who got it exponentially worse than me. Shit sucks. | ||
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kdog3683
United States916 Posts
I never really got hit @ all though. Mostly, my dad would scream / throw stuff or grab my ear. When I was little, I had this fluffy white bear about 3 feet high I would sleep with. If i did somthing bad, he would beat the bear with a belt and I would cry  | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
Title: Spanking by parents and subsequent antisocial behavior of children Author(s): Straus MA, Sugarman DB, GilesSims J Source: ARCHIVES OF PEDIATRICS & ADOLESCENT MEDICINE Volume: 151 Issue: 8 Pages: 761-767 Published: AUG 1997 Times Cited: 87 Sadly the fulltext article is not available for download for some gay reason and I live 2.5 hours from my faculty. :p Not gonna look up more right now because dealing with my uni's online library is such a huge pain in the ass at night. | ||
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SIUnit
China288 Posts
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Vharox
United States1037 Posts
On December 24 2008 14:20 kdog3683 wrote: When I was little, I had this fluffy white bear about 3 feet high I would sleep with. If i did somthing bad, he would beat the bear with a belt and I would cry Haha awww | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
Use the search function plz! | ||
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Whyzguy
Canada263 Posts
I've been beat, just not beat up. | ||
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vx70GTOJudgexv
United States3161 Posts
Let me start off by saying, I've never raised my own child. But as I said, if I was out of line, I got a smack on the ass. Later, my parents moved to grounding me because it was more long term, but I still (at 18) get hit for certain things, i.e, talking back to my parents, disrespecting family, and the like. I'm from a caucasian family in New York. I did things that were deserving of the punishment because I was curious, not because my parents didn't raise me properly. First of all, I am the farthest thing from a pussy. The spineless pussies I know are the ones who all gasped with their parents when I got a swat in the back of the head because I made a wise remark about my fathers intelligence when I was moving in to my dorm. Second, I'd hold my parents as some of the BEST parents I know. No, they aren't perfect, and they will be the first to admit it. But neither my brother or I are out on the streets hitting up drug dealers and partying out of control every night. Do we enjoy ourselves? Yes, when the time is right, I'll be the first in line for shots of whiskey. But we know how to act about it and know to control ourselves. Compare that to the parents who tried the "non-physical" approach next door. The oldest is in jail, the middle died in a gang-fight and the youngest is expelled. I hung out with these kids all the time until I was about 16, so blame can't be placed on "the crowd" that they hung out with entirely. Yes, they had their own friends and so did I, but more often than not, they were chilling with me in the back yard playing football or shooting hoops. I'm not saying beating is right for everyone. It's a form of discipline I will use, and that's my preference. But for all the high-on-their-horse so-called "experts" who are telling people they had shitty parents and that they are spineless for being beaten...  | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
Also, the whole principle behind it is based on a fundamentally flawed understanding of how behavior is learned. This all has been known for like 40 years. And that's why it's illegal in modern civilized countries. The US just has a poor record here and is far away from modern civilized countries. Like it never ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child as basically the only country in the world because the other country that hasn't recognised these children rights is Somalia and it probably would have if it actually had a government that could do so. There's a series of 15 videos on youtube. First one You aren't allowed to hit people unless they are children? Makes no sense. Not to mention it's even more harmful to children because you are teaching children you can get your way or solve problems by inflicting pain unto others since children are still developing their morality. And parents play a major role here so parents hitting their own children is even worse than hitting some random child which is worse than hitting some random person. Not only does our understanding of learning and development of the mind and personality of children suggest it's very very bad. But statistics clearly show very unsettling relations between corporal punishment of children and then the future criminal and violent behavior of this person as an adult. So it's double fold. We can make predictions and when we test them they turn out to be correct. | ||
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ktp
United States797 Posts
Conclusion: Don't have kids. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
On December 24 2008 14:20 kdog3683 wrote: I have azn parents as well who utilize negative reinforcement. I never really got hit @ all though. Mostly, my dad would scream / throw stuff or grab my ear. When I was little, I had this fluffy white bear about 3 feet high I would sleep with. If i did somthing bad, he would beat the bear with a belt and I would cry poor poor bear | ||
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