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On December 25 2008 11:14 Frits wrote:
They take a population that is pretty much the same on most grounds, from similar environments, with the exception that one population uses physical punishment and the other doesn't. That should prevent any significant error from something like that. If some parents turn out to show behavior that deviates too much from the norm Im sure they just eliminated them from the experiment.
the problem with this is that it's not making a distinction between "proper" physical discipline and child abuse.
Couldn't you conduct the same study (measuring violence) between 2 different nations, but target one nation that consumes more bananas than another? Would the result not show that bananas statistically indicate that their consumption increases the chance of violence?
As far as i know, i don't think anyone has said that senselessly beating your child is better than not spanking a child. (if anyone has said that, ignore them, as that's not the target of your retorts). That's the only issue those studies address. (using 'physical discipline allowed within the law' is not a good measure either, as using physical discipline without follow-up action is legal, but no less senseless.)
Until we can scrutinize the specifics of a study, i see no reason to believe causation over correlation.
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On December 25 2008 09:28 ParasitJonte wrote:
And by the way. Has anyone brought up monkeys? How do we get monkeys to behave and do as we please (that is, "be good")?
Have you ever watched the discovery channel and hear the zookeeper go:
"Well, the way we do it is that if they don't gather the coins and place them in the vending machine, we go in there and break their legs. It takes them awhile to understand what's going on but they get it eventually."
Only to hear the narrator conclude:
"...and so little Chuaka finally gets his banana. With no bones left to support himself, he has learned a valuable lesson."
Monkeys aren't the same as people. If you're trying to prove something otherwise than I dunno
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Parents who beat up their kids should be beat up the same, but I'm talking real abuse.
That crap of reasoning and discussing with your children is bs. First of all, most kids don't understand the way of adult reasoning, and a parent should be an authority figure that guides their children. While it is good that a parent teaches his kid through reason, there are some cases where a NO is a NO, and a parent shouldn't need to justify that choice, mostly because the kid doesn't understand/give a crap about it.
For example, when I as a kid got with some buddies of mine and bullied some poor guy at school(I'm talking when I was really young, like 11-12) my school called all of our parents. First, my parents told me it was cowardice and stupid to bully a poor kid, but all I could think was "but it is damn fun, and the guy is a loser, and if I stop doing it, I'm going to lose my friends". Yeah, retarded reasons, not proud of it, but I believe a lot of people can relate to that at that age.
We gave him a break, but few days later we went back on track, and this time we were a little bit harsher on him for being a snitch. School called home again, and I got a little hot mouthed telling my parents the other parents were such a pain in the ass, that they said it was just kids playing. My father smacked me in the head, and no more words needed. If I did it again, I knew I'll get punished again. Didn't understand why they wanted to cut my fun, but I didn't do it again(at least to that kid). Now I look back and I know if I was my father, I would have kicked my ass even harder for being such a moron.
But at the time, being a kid, I just didn't get that it was that wrong bullying someone. Had my father beat me to the hospital? Very wrong. Smack me once so I stop acting like an idiot? Now I think it was the good choice. Better than having parents that would just let me continue bullying another kid.
And I'm in the light side. I know troublesome kids who I honestly believe are just evil, and since they won't give a crap about what their parents tell them, as a kid, maybe physical punishment is the only choice. I hope no one here seriously believes taking him to the shrink at that age will fix anything at all.
And just like with studying. I hated studying. When my parents were telling me, if you don't study you won't get to college, you will screw your life, bla bla bla, all I could think was to go out and play with my friends. I know there are some kids who really study hard since they are little kids, but that's a few minority, and most of the time it comes enforced by their parents. I wouldn't listen to my parents, grades failing, and then my parents told me one of the most feared words I've heard. 종아리 걷어. Which is basically, roll up your pants, because we are going to hit the back of your legs with a wooden ruler X times depending on how bad you screwed up. Looking back, I'm glad they did it, otherwise I might be a drop out right now.
And like that, so many other examples(I don't even wanna go there when my parents found out I was smoking pot at HS). Maybe the more conservative part of Korean culture can be a little bit extreme on physical punishment, but you get the point. Beating up a kid for the fun of it, or because some piece of shit parents can only take their anger at their kids, I'll be the first to punch their faces. But I don't think spanking your kid when he doesn't listen can be considered abuse.
Of course there are some kids that never misbehave and without once in their lives being yelled at by their parents they turn up great. In my case, if I hadn't some discipline from my parents, it scares the shit out of me the thought of what I could have become.
Each kid is a different case, but for a lot of them, some physical punishment can be of use, and it's not like it is going to scar them psychologically for life or anything. Of course there are levels of physical punishment, but in my own experience, it hurts, but it might put you in the right track when you are a stubborn punk kid that won't listen to your parents.
Hitting your children for no reason is being a mofo. Hitting them for educational purposes can be acceptable at some degree. But no extreme is good. Nor is good beating up your kid so badly that he will have bruises all over his body, even if it is to "educate" him, but it is equally stupid spoiling your kid, telling him something and if he doesn't listen, just letting him be. The result in both ends is bad. My cousin is a misbehaving psycho punk, and when he was in 3rd grade he threw his pencil to the teacher. His parents just warned him verbally. He did it again. Again, they warned him verbally. And so on. Now he is a mofo that I wouldn't give a job even as a janitor.
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On December 25 2008 12:39 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 10:40 EmeraldSparks wrote:On December 25 2008 04:16 Mora wrote:
perhaps if you weren't beaten as a child you'd be better to handle your temper with others' misbehavior.
if your responses aren't a clear indication that abuse of children doesn't perpetuate abuse (in your case verbal), then nothing is.
Seriously? What the fuck? "Your responses in this thread mean that your parents were terrible people for spanking you and indicate that you are fucked up and likely to abuse your children." Did you read the whole thread or just skim over parts that you were convicted to retort on? If you had read the rest of my posts in addition to the one you quoted from me you might have been able to figure out that that post was made in jest. perhaps it was just a failing on my part to be funny, but i will reiterate: read the rest of my posts and try responding to those, as they are the ones with actual content. Infact, after re-reading your post, it seems you took more than just my statement out of context. Are you going out of your way to start arguements? I would advocate trying to read someone else's words with the intention of seeing it from their point of view before trying to burn them. If you do not do this, you run the risk of taking things out of context which is bad for discussion.
I read the entire thread. I had things to say and I said them, mostly about wanting links or text and asking questions about causation, which I saw little of. I also saw quite a bit of stupidity that I wanted to point out. You may have said many insightful, informative things in this thread; unfortunately for you, I can't remember which of the fifty posters in this thread said what things. There was some pretty dumb shit in this thread so excuse me if I didn't realize that that particular post was in jest.
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On December 25 2008 14:18 RamenStyle wrote:
That crap of reasoning and discussing with your children is bs. First of all, most kids don't understand the way of adult reasoning, and a parent should be an authority figure that guides their children. While it is good that a parent teaches his kid through reason, there are some cases where a NO is a NO, and a parent shouldn't need to justify that choice, mostly because the kid doesn't understand/give a crap about it.
Maybe if your kid is stupid. It's interesting your idea of an "authority figure" is somebody who the kid obeys unquestioningly because they don't have a choice, instead of somebody they can respect because they are willing to trust their judgment. If you are unable to justify your decisions, they're probably bad ones.
Anyways, since so many people are chiming in with the "I WAS BEAT AS A KID AND I'M NOT MALADJUSTED" line, I'll go ahead and admit that my parents used physical punishment, and I was a pretty violent kid (And even as an adult, I'm probably readier to resort to violence than my peers). Did the spankings contribute? I don't know.
And as for the people who are claiming these studies can't be trusted by citing incorrect "studies" (I use the term loosely) not subjected to the scientific method or peer review, you are retards. You are free to dispute the study itself (Maybe data was fudged, the methodology used was flawed, whatever), but if you can't identify where exactly that specific study went wrong, you can't just handwave it away with the "STUDIES CAN BE MANIPULATED TO PROVE ANYTHING" line. That is an act of intellectual cowardice.
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On December 25 2008 14:18 RamenStyle wrote:
Parents who beat up their kids should be beat up the same, but I'm talking real abuse.
That crap of reasoning and discussing with your children is bs. First of all, most kids don't understand the way of adult reasoning,
People talk to toddlers eventhough they don't understand a word of it. But guess what, they actually learn to talk this way.
No, reasoning children don't understand. But that's exactly why you should do it because they will have to learn it eventually and this is how it is learned.
...and a parent should be an authority figure that guides their children.
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Yes. And a parent is. Parents can brainwash children. Children will believe anything a parent tells them if they are young enough. Santa Claus anyone? What about religion? Hell, even spanking is an example. Most people here just accept spanking as proper parental behavior just because their parents spanked them. I mean, no argument has been made as to why spanking teaches a child 'proper' behavior throughout this topic afaik. And no one even tried.
How does this have anything to do with applying the incorrect ideas of reenforcement through punishment and reward?
No one is proposing that because spanking is wrong parent and child should have an equal relationship. That's not what science has found out and it's totally unrelated with spanking.
And even if it happened to be the conclusion of science then you would just be force to accept it or very very probably be very wrong because of blind dogma.
The only thing spanking clearly learns the child is that spanking your children is good or at least ok which science has reached a consensus against quite some years ago. And the theories about how cognittive processes develop also explain why this is. Children copy the behavior or their parents in the exact same way as children learn the language of their parents. And yes, language is basically already hardwired in the brain, ignoring specifics. It just needs to be stimulated so it can bloom and develop in the specific way of the parent. Same with morality. At least that's what cognitive science thinks they found out.
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On December 25 2008 13:13 SaveYourSavior wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 09:28 ParasitJonte wrote:
And by the way. Has anyone brought up monkeys? How do we get monkeys to behave and do as we please (that is, "be good")?
Have you ever watched the discovery channel and hear the zookeeper go:
"Well, the way we do it is that if they don't gather the coins and place them in the vending machine, we go in there and break their legs. It takes them awhile to understand what's going on but they get it eventually."
Only to hear the narrator conclude:
"...and so little Chuaka finally gets his banana. With no bones left to support himself, he has learned a valuable lesson." Monkeys aren't the same as people. If you're trying to prove something otherwise than I dunno
We're equal enough that it constitutes a valid point. That's why monkeys are a popular research subject - we're family after all. Monkeys ~ children.
The main point is that there are other ways of doing things.
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On December 24 2008 10:13 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Children need to be disciplined at a young age once they're old enough to understand what they did wrong and one or two good spankings can do wonders in that they're afraid of it happening again.
oh my god. USA scares me
I wasnt beated or "spanked" when I was little, but my dad often shouted a lot and got very angry for small things we did. And sometimes he did "violent" stuff, not that bad but I was pretty afraid of him. I have been afraid of him a very long time but it stoped when I was around 14 (I'm 16 soon 17 now). Mostly because he's more calm now than before and he can't really do shit to us anymore lol
I dont believe in violence or "spanking". It just made me afraid of my dad. T.T
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Same here, I had tons or respect for him, and I was never hit.
There are a tons of other ways to "punish" a child other than hitting it.
Im amazed that people still think hitting your children is a good way to raise it.
Stop holding the rest of us back because you're trying to convince yourself that your parents did a good thing.
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Eri's post sums it up pretty well.
And I m surprised about the amount of shit that has been posted so far. Even by people i had high expectations from when it comes to discussing and cognitive abilities.
I d like to make a little overview and everyone here can decide with what he agrees so far:
(1) Beating or spanking your child regularly is bad and never the right thing to do
(2) It is not entirely proven how much spanking/beating a child influences negative behaviour
(3) Studies are not always perfectly true but they are more valid than your very own experience
[ note: not for yourself but logically for a >general conclusion< ]
Who ever does not agree with those 3 statements please say so and explain why. Im interested to hear any logical approach to prove those wrong.
We shouldnt start argufing..
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On December 26 2008 01:15 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Eri's post sums it up pretty well.
And I m surprised about the amount of shit that has been posted so far. Even by people i had high expectations from when it comes to discussing and cognitive abilities.
I d like to make a little overview and everyone here can decide with what he agrees so far:
(1) Beating or spanking your child regularly is bad and never the right thing to do
(2) It is not entirely proven how much spanking/beating a child influences negative behaviour
(3) Studies are not always perfectly true but they are more valid than your very own experience
[ note: not for yourself but logically for a >general conclusion< ]
Who ever does not agree with those 3 statements please say so and explain why. Im interested to hear any logical approach to prove those wrong.
We shouldnt start argufing..
That is very good questions, I agree to all three of them. Will be funny to see if someone actually has logical arguments against this.
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apparently showing the child your disappointment in their bad behavior is a better deterrent than hitting them
or just not feeding them. they'll get hungry.
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Just beat your kids. The world would be a better place.
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On December 26 2008 00:06 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2008 10:13 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Children need to be disciplined at a young age once they're old enough to understand what they did wrong and one or two good spankings can do wonders in that they're afraid of it happening again. oh my god. USA scares me
*Sigh*. As said before, don't judge a whole country by what one, or a few, people say; or even by how the laws may be written in some states.
You probably never do that with any other country.
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LINKS LINKS TEXT TEXT CAN'T DO JACK SHIT WITH STUDIES WITHOUT LINKS AND TEXT
On December 25 2008 16:34 Underwhelmed wrote:
Maybe if your kid is stupid. It's interesting your idea of an "authority figure" is somebody who the kid obeys unquestioningly because they don't have a choice, instead of somebody they can respect because they are willing to trust their judgment. If you are unable to justify your decisions, they're probably bad ones.
It's pretty easy to justify parenting decisions to other adults. It's harder to explain them to a twelve-year-old; see this thread for tons of anecdotal evidence (somebody feel free to present a study that says only in the minority of cases can one not swiftly reason a child into line,) like the kid who bullies other kids or the kid who throws things at the teacher or who screams for an hour at the mall.
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Also, for those of you scared by the US, China must scare you guys shitless, and there's a billion of them.
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On December 26 2008 02:08 ParasitJonte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 00:06 Zoler wrote:On December 24 2008 10:13 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Children need to be disciplined at a young age once they're old enough to understand what they did wrong and one or two good spankings can do wonders in that they're afraid of it happening again. oh my god. USA scares me *Sigh*. As said before, don't judge a whole country by what one, or a few, people say; or even by how the laws may be written in some states. You probably never do that with any other country.
That was a joke to see how badly I was going to get flamed. Worked out good imo
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United States20661 Posts
What's with the moral superiority the Euros are throwing around here?
Beating children is perfectly fine within reason. Fetch me that belt over there~
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On December 24 2008 10:32 CharlieMurphy wrote:
If you don't beat your kids, they will be faggots.
my parents didn't beat me. i think that means im a faggot : [
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Norway28719 Posts
LR if you use a belt its never within reason :p
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EPT
