When civilians are part of the war effort, which usually is the case in a total war, all bets are off. Notice how the only saving grace of the world for the past 50 years was MAD.
On a side note, Hiroshima was a heavy military economy based city and had not yet been firebombed, so it was the one of the few fully untouched military economy based cities.
To all who think the bombings were not justified. Remember this:
On November 02 2008 14:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote: The ground assault would have resulted in more casualties on both sides.
The job of the American Government is to protect American lives at any cost. We did exactly that.
Dont misplace sympathy with what was rational at the time. Realize what was at stake for all of those who were in the war. What if things went diffferently (including the bombings)? Realize that there is a timeline of crazy fucking events that spawned many different decisions and tactics during that war. Lets justhope we'll never be forced into a WW situation like that again. Bcause the protection of ANY government's people is priority over all. If you were in their place at that time, you'd want to protect your people as well, especially when you know right across the way (the pactific and atlantic) THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS were being manhandled. There is a time where strong action is not encouraged but provoked and escalated.
On November 03 2008 14:48 Savio wrote: People saying that these bombings were worse than Pearl Harbor are ignoring the fact that Pearl Harbor was an attack on a country they weren't even at war with!
If you start a war all on your own by hitting them before even announcing that you are at war, then YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE TO COMPLAIN ONCE YOU GET JACKED.
Of those 2 attacks, 1 was between 2 wartime countries and the other was between 2 countries that were currently at peace with eachother.
War is Hell and should be avoided. But when you are attacked first, you take the Hell to them until they quit.
In other words, Pearl Harbor justifies murdering over 100,000 civilians, including women and children?
The amount of posters here who apparently believe that civilians are legitimate targets in wartime (and who therefore don't believe in the concept of war crime) is truly astounding.
What I am saying is that Pearl Harbor started a WAR. These 2 bombs did not start a war. In fact, they ended the worst war of all time.
Pearl Harbor is worse because it started a war that resulted in millions of deaths including all the deaths caused by the 2 bombs.
Our war declaration was eventually going to happen no matter what, FDR just needed clearance for it because he kind of actually cared about what the public thought. It's strange to imagine a president like that.
On November 04 2008 02:13 Jibba wrote: Our war declaration was eventually going to happen no matter what, FDR just needed clearance for it because he kind of actually cared about what the public thought. It's strange to imagine a president like that.
I don't know exactly what would have happened. But attacking without declaring war first is the worst thing you can do.
Yeah it's impossible according to the USA to target "Al-Qaeda" in Iraq and Afghanstan without killing civilians, which makes it justifiable right? Then I will come and wage war on you and say it's impossible to tell where you are and drop a bomb to slay your whole neighborhood in the process. Human blood isn't cheap. Everyone who harms a fingertip of an innocent person will be held accountable for his/her actions on judgement day (that if you believe in it, depends).
On November 04 2008 02:57 bahaa wrote: Yeah it's impossible according to the USA to target "Al-Qaeda" in Iraq and Afghanstan without killing civilians, which makes it justifiable right? Then I will come and wage war on you and say it's impossible to tell where you are and drop a bomb to slay your whole neighborhood in the process. Human blood isn't cheap. Everyone who harms a fingertip of an innocent person will be held accountable for his/her actions on judgement day (that if you believe in it, depends).
=p The U.S. Spends billions of dollars on smart bombs to just take out certain positions with minimal collateral damage. We could have easily spend 1/4th that money on dumb bombs and level the entire place. Really it's just splitting hairs.
A better question would be whether or not the firebombings of Tokyo and pretty much every other major Japanese city of the time were justified. The nuclear bombings really were just a continuation of this policy, just a different bomb.
On November 04 2008 02:57 bahaa wrote: Yeah it's impossible according to the USA to target "Al-Qaeda" in Iraq and Afghanstan without killing civilians, which makes it justifiable right? Then I will come and wage war on you and say it's impossible to tell where you are and drop a bomb to slay your whole neighborhood in the process. Human blood isn't cheap. Everyone who harms a fingertip of an innocent person will be held accountable for his/her actions on judgement day (that if you believe in it, depends).
=p The U.S. Spends billions of dollars on smart bombs to just take out certain positions with minimal collateral damage. We could have easily spend 1/4th that money on dumb bombs and level the entire place. Really it's just splitting hairs.
Get this: no one thinks its cool because someone has a lots of bombs. USA is so sad to brag about their guns and weapons all the time. Disgusting.
no, but based on the information available at the time, the first one probably was. truman sure as fuck couldnt do anything else if he wanted to remain in american politics.
Being a president during a war that last more then 4 years is bad it usually breaks your political carrier. Democracy has a short attention span and quickly get sick of wars.
On November 03 2008 14:48 Savio wrote: People saying that these bombings were worse than Pearl Harbor are ignoring the fact that Pearl Harbor was an attack on a country they weren't even at war with!
If you start a war all on your own by hitting them before even announcing that you are at war, then YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE TO COMPLAIN ONCE YOU GET JACKED.
Of those 2 attacks, 1 was between 2 wartime countries and the other was between 2 countries that were currently at peace with eachother.
War is Hell and should be avoided. But when you are attacked first, you take the Hell to them until they quit.
In other words, Pearl Harbor justifies murdering over 100,000 civilians, including women and children?
The amount of posters here who apparently believe that civilians are legitimate targets in wartime (and who therefore don't believe in the concept of war crime) is truly astounding.
Rather than be astounded, why not consider the opposing points?
In true wartime there is no such thing as "rules". IF there are rules they are almost always retrospectively announced (after the benefits of the action in question are milked dry), and always is always performed by the winners, sometimes with the critical eye of history. The term "war criminal" is completely subjective, and if youre going to point to Nuremberg to make your point, dont; I do agree that what they did was completely reprehensible and horrible but if the Germans had won and the Nazi vision won out what do you think would have happened? In Hitler's vision, that was "justifiable".
I see your point that civilian lives should be a completely different category from that of a soldier (i mean, who wants to be involved in fighting right? I'm a pacifist too.), but if you think wars are just a chess match between countries your idealism is horribly, horribly misplaced. Wars are avoided because they can cause devastation to the most sacred untouchable parts of your life. Its a rape of culture, land and people on your enemy on a massive scale and the more critical the resources being fought over, the nastier all combatants will get.
World War II was epic in ways many people fail to comprehend the magnitude of the event. From the US perspective, after loosing hundreds of thousands of soldiers on both fronts, why in the living fuck would you risk any more of your soldiers to save ANYONE from a country that you were at war with? In a humanitarian perspective, 10 soldiers lost is equal to 10 civilians lost (though some of you would argue not). In that situation, wherein you have the choice of either
1. starving Japan through blockade 2. orchestrating a full-scale invasion of Japan 3. dropping the bomb
# 3 was the most capable of fulfilling the goals of the US, in minimizing casualties to its own people and economy, at least in the eyes of US brass AND politicians.
The problem with the term "justification" is that like many concepts considered absolute...its not. Its a relative term, dictated by the zeitgeist and those in power.
I'd like to pose this question too: If today the US was nuked by Russia (I know some of you consider that "justified" anyways. Fuck America, right?), what do you think the response would be? Would it be justified?
A very, very misguided post. Considering that I actually held the view that the a-bombs were justified for quite some time before changing my mind, I'm fully aware of the reasoning behind the "opposing points".
It is absolutely false and wrong to say that there are no rules in wartime. Yes, minor atrocities in warfare are generally unavoidable and it's unreasonable to expect war to be entirely "clean". But this in no way implies that there are no rules, period. Just because human beings can't act honorably and humanely all the time doesn't mean that we shouldn't even strive to be honorable and humane. Moreover, there is a MAJOR difference between spontaneous minor atrocities committed by soliders who are literally fighting for their and their comerades' lives, and a top-down POLICY of mass murder.
WHY was the unconditional surrender of Japan so necessary that it was worth it to destroy innocent human life on an unprecedented scale?
The point I'm trying to make here is that the agreed upon rules of engagement in wartime situations flies out the window when the stakes are high enough. I am not saying that we shouldn't act reasonably or like human beings - I just wanted to shed light on the the greyish nature of "justification" and why people did what they did.
Whatever the case was, the fact that the bombs WERE dropped implies that there was "justification" for it by the government. You may disagree with their debriefed reasoning, but given the situation I suspect it had less to do with irrational hatred than than a cold, calculated maneuver to cement the US at the top of the international food chain (I believe the US military lives spared was only a secondary priority) and thus justified. To Americans, of course.
For the amount of people who said no, try to put yourself in the historical situation.
By today's standards we would say it was unjustified. But you have to remember that the world has been free of a major military conflict for over 60 years. It was a WORLD war, with MILLIONS dying on all sides. The power to end it with a gesture from single weapon is way too tempting.
You have to remember that a World War by today's standards would go very differently from 60 years ago - things were different, more dire, and definitely more desperate. There are geneva convention laws now, and things are different.
Not that any of that matters. A World War in the 21st century would involve bombs that would put the ones used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki to shame, with casualties that we could only dream of.
On November 04 2008 02:57 bahaa wrote: Yeah it's impossible according to the USA to target "Al-Qaeda" in Iraq and Afghanstan without killing civilians, which makes it justifiable right? Then I will come and wage war on you and say it's impossible to tell where you are and drop a bomb to slay your whole neighborhood in the process. Human blood isn't cheap. Everyone who harms a fingertip of an innocent person will be held accountable for his/her actions on judgement day (that if you believe in it, depends).
=p The U.S. Spends billions of dollars on smart bombs to just take out certain positions with minimal collateral damage. We could have easily spend 1/4th that money on dumb bombs and level the entire place. Really it's just splitting hairs.
Get this: no one thinks its cool because someone has a lots of bombs. USA is so sad to brag about their guns and weapons all the time. Disgusting.