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Northern Ireland24796 Posts
On January 27 2025 01:31 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 01:04 Nebuchad wrote:On January 27 2025 00:53 KlaCkoN wrote:On January 27 2025 00:20 Nebuchad wrote:On January 26 2025 23:20 KlaCkoN wrote:
I think you guys are wrong about that. LIke I enjoy shitting on Reagan as much as anyone but I dont actually think there is a clear (or even fuzzy) line between economic inequality and expansionism/imperialism/fascism/far-rightness
Thinking through a timeline of the past 150 years or we have:
From the mid 19th century up until WW1 industrializing countries were getting more democratic, less authoritarian and I think significantly more economically unequal.
Massive capital destruction in the war then caused a significant decrease in economic inequality. However, that did not stop the rise of fascism in the interwar period.
After the war the democratic countries saw a period of relatively low inequality and high growth, and they also continued to become gradually less imperialist. But note that countries like France, the US and the UK continued to fight imperialist/expansionist wars well into the 60s and black people in the US south effectively didnt get the right to vote until 1965.
Neoliberalism arrives in the 80s and with it rapidly increasing economic inequality. However countries continue to become gradually more democratic, (gay rights, womens rights, etc etc), and less imperialist/expansionist.
However, starting in 2010(?) we start seeing a fascist right re-emerge in Europe, this culminates with the first election of Trump in 2016.
Looking at this timeline it's hard for me to draw the conclusion that neoliberalism is the cause of this particular problem. Sure the period between 1945 and 1965 saw a strong correlation between high growth, low inequality and gradually less imperialism and more civil rights.. But the period between 1980 and 2010 instead had increasing inequality, but it continued to see decreasing imperialism and more civil rights/democracy.
((as an example JFK straight up fought an imperialist war in Vietnam, Reagan had to be content with 'subtle' coups in South America, i do think this represents a quantitative change in the direction towards 'less fascism'))
Once we get to 2010 we have sky high inequalities and we start seeing a turn towards the far right, but in absolute terms inequalities are still very comparable to the period period between 18xx and 1914 where we instead saw increasing democracy (starting from low levels ..) simultaneously with increasing inequality.
Basically neither the relative change in inequality over time, OR it's absolute value, seem to correlate with how far right a society is.
The way you can tie rising inequality to the rise of the far right is through the political mechanisms that had to happen in your society in order for that rising inequality to take place. You need a weakened left, otherwise it would have fought that rising inequality. But you're still in a democracy, there can't be only one political party to vote for, you need a political opposition (if you're dealing with white people, that is, of course otherwise you can send Pinochet). So what would happen before 1980 is the right would have power for a while, disappoint some people, so the left would gain forces back and be less weak on the next election. But neoliberalism pushes the Overton window to the right enough so that this doesn't happen, and instead the political opposition changes from one between a socialist/social democrat and a liberal, who discuss economics, to a liberal who has progressive views and a liberal who has conservative views, who discuss societal issues. The reason why this system leans conservative over time is because political systems that have two main choices have a direction. There's always a side that represents change and a side that represents keeping things mostly as they are. Under neoliberalism obviously it's the centrist that doesn't do much (because if he was doing too much, he might become a leftist, and that's precisely the thing that we're trying to avoid). So as power switches back and forth between the two, over time the system becomes more and more far right, and the far right becomes more and more acceptable. But this doesnt really seem correlate with what we observe. For almost 30 years after 1980 people and countries continued to became less far-right and civil rights continued to expand, even as the left was to weak to stop an accelerating increase in economic inequality. Like I think reducing economic inequality is a worthwhile goal in and of itself. (Like I pay my union dues, and social democratic party membership dues lol) But I also dont really think we can expect the world to become less fascist if this is achieved. Peoples turn to the far right is driven by something else. Here is a more recent story making the same point im trying to make https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/01/biden-economic-populism-failure/681289/Basically American towns that saw enormous state-driven investment and and had a corresponding growth in prosperity did not to start to vote for Democrats, instead the share of Democratic voters dropped. If you care about economic equality for reasons of principle thats great, but there is no reason to believe it will reverse the trend towards the far-right. I don't see this as a contradiction, it takes time for society to adapt to the new paradigms. Even today you will commonly encounter the notion that there is no racism in the far right and we're just imagining things, because my generation, from after the 1980s, was still generally raised with the idea that bigotry is bad and you shouldn't be a bigot. The generation that is raised watching Elon do nazi salutes, by parents who proudly vote for Trump? Well... I think it's much more likely that some other, underlying factor drives those cultural shifts, rather than inequality in itself. Perhaps neoliberalism as an ideology with its demand that everything about human life be 'productized' and evaluated on a market. (Of course neoliberalism also increases inequality but that's not the same thing as saying inequality is the underlying cause, because it's very possible to have high inequality without neoliberalism.) Perhaps this ideology leads to lower empathy and therefor more support for fascists. Or maybe (to tie this back to Elon ...) it's about the rise of smart phone mediated social media and 24hr news. The time correlation checks out very well (~~2010) and I think the mechanism sounds plausible. Outrage and disgust are extremely powerful in the attention economy, which provides a very strong market force for companies in this space to generate those feelings in their 'customers'. Simultaneously there is correlation between disgust etc and far-right views. So maybe just by literally spending more time on average being outraged and disgusted peoples political views are shifting towards the authoritarian right. (authoritarian is key here, not the right in general).
Yeah I think you’re somewhat on the money here. One only has to look at the far right’s rhetoric and sure, material conditions are a part of it, but they aren’t the main part. Pride, be it in the self or some collective or abstract entity features super heavily. Plus all those other facets of the playbook:
I imagine this lands because people feel this is lacking in their lives, even with relative economic comfort.
Then you add to that modern communications and I think you see people far more exposed to things that ram that home, as well as open pathways where they can communicate with all sorts of folks who feel broadly similarly. That’s a pretty toxic feedback loop right there.
Of course, there are other factors as well, I think this is one that perhaps is less oft-mentioned overall. Whether one wishes to call it Neoliberalism or summat else, but that kind of feeling that on a spiritual or fulfilment level or what have you that it’s kinda a load of bollocks eh? And ofc things that are more healthy can fill that vacuum too.
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If late stage captialism set the stage for social media's evil predatory algorithms to launch us into the rise of fascism once more I'll feel vindicated yet very mournful to be part of an ever dividing world, at least for the forseeable future. I just want to sing Kumbaya (unironically, or rather, with some genuineness). Why don't they want to sing it with me? Is it a bad song? I can sing another one if that's what they want...
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On January 27 2025 07:04 Uldridge wrote:
If late stage captialism set the stage for social media's evil predatory algorithms to launch us into the rise of fascism once more I'll feel vindicated yet very mournful to be part of an ever dividing world, at least for the forseeable future. I just want to sing Kumbaya (unironically, or rather, with some genuineness). Why don't they want to sing it with me? Is it a bad song? I can sing another one if that's what they want...
When the living standard in the west crumbles, restriction mechanisms for the not-so-well-off will have to be in place to make sure power is dictated by wealth and not the rabid impoverished masses.
On January 27 2025 01:38 KwarK wrote:
I wonder who Elon is talking about when he complains about the global elite influencing politics.
Thanks for the laugh
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On January 27 2025 01:38 KwarK wrote:
I wonder who Elon is talking about when he complains about the global elite influencing politics.
His pet gamer's only managed to grind him to SMFC so far. He's working on it, alright?
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On January 25 2025 09:09 Legan wrote:
Well surely the Musk salute will be okay going forwards with ADL and Netanyahu defending it. European leaders will love when their allies perform it too. Especially when Russia has tried to denazify Ukraine for a few years now. Western values will be respected around the world after this.
How exactly are we supposed to square the new data? Did he strongarm or trick them into saying he's not a Nazi? Do they just not know any better? Is it that they concede it's a Nazi salute but they're making a more general statement that despite doing a Nazi salute he's not a Nazi? Are they all in cahoots or are they Jewish Nazis themselves? Are they lying? What's the resolution besides sarcasm?
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Canada11340 Posts
Do you think it's not a Nazi salute?
And if you don't think it is, would it be a gesture you would be willing to do in public? Is it a gesture that you would be happy to see adopted in large MAGA gatherings? (In a 'Let's go Brandon' kind of way?)
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On January 27 2025 03:29 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 02:21 KlaCkoN wrote:
So honest question:
Musk twice makes the Hitler-salute while giving a political speech. He also tweets stuff about Jews controlling the world etc.
Is Elon Musk a neo-nazi? Depends on who you're asking. Overt Neo-Nazis think he's one of them. I also think he's one of them. But there's a group of people in the middle that thinks he's not one of th... I mean not a Neo-Nazi.
I guess I'm asking people in this thread. Everyone I have asked in real life seem to think he is not (a neo-nazi).
Like do you actually believe he considers Adolf Hitler to be his spiritual and political inspiration and do you expect him to file for planning permission for Birkenau 2.0 within the next decade?
It just sounds too implausible to me. I dont believe it.
But it is true that he performed a Hitler-greeting with a satisfied grunt, twice, in front of a political audience. It is also true that he tweets conspiracies about a the jews control the world.
I dont know what to do with that or what that means.
On January 27 2025 14:31 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2025 09:09 Legan wrote:
Well surely the Musk salute will be okay going forwards with ADL and Netanyahu defending it. European leaders will love when their allies perform it too. Especially when Russia has tried to denazify Ukraine for a few years now. Western values will be respected around the world after this. How exactly are we supposed to square the new data? .... Do they just not know any better? Is it that they concede it's a Nazi salute but they're making a more general statement that despite doing a Nazi salute he's not a Nazi? .... Are they lying...
Those all sound plausible to me yes. I would add that there is obvious political benefit to aligning with the Musk/Trump administration at this point in time. Personally I would assume that's why they did it.
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On January 27 2025 18:29 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 14:31 oBlade wrote:On January 25 2025 09:09 Legan wrote:
Well surely the Musk salute will be okay going forwards with ADL and Netanyahu defending it. European leaders will love when their allies perform it too. Especially when Russia has tried to denazify Ukraine for a few years now. Western values will be respected around the world after this. How exactly are we supposed to square the new data? .... Do they just not know any better? Is it that they concede it's a Nazi salute but they're making a more general statement that despite doing a Nazi salute he's not a Nazi? .... Are they lying... Those all sound plausible to me yes. I would add that there is obvious political benefit to aligning with the Musk/Trump administration at this point in time. Personally I would assume that's why they did it.
ADL also made it clear that they want Palestine ethnically cleansed and Trump looks like the guy who will deliver. You just side with your allies.
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If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.
+ Show Spoiler +Unless the fuckin' leftist snowflakes think it's a duck. In that case, it's gotta be something else.
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Elon is a troll and he knows he has neo-nazi followers. So he does a nazi salute to troll the libs with plausible deniability (my heart goes out to you) and please his more extreme supporters. It’s really not that hard to understand.
That doesn’t make him a nazi quite yet, just a coked up far right troll.
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Northern Ireland24796 Posts
On January 27 2025 20:35 Salazarz wrote:If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. + Show Spoiler +Unless the fuckin' leftist snowflakes think it's a duck. In that case, it's gotta be something else.
Denying what my own eyes tell me to own the libs.
On January 27 2025 18:29 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 03:29 Magic Powers wrote:On January 27 2025 02:21 KlaCkoN wrote:
So honest question:
Musk twice makes the Hitler-salute while giving a political speech. He also tweets stuff about Jews controlling the world etc.
Is Elon Musk a neo-nazi? Depends on who you're asking. Overt Neo-Nazis think he's one of them. I also think he's one of them. But there's a group of people in the middle that thinks he's not one of th... I mean not a Neo-Nazi. I guess I'm asking people in this thread. Everyone I have asked in real life seem to think he is not (a neo-nazi). Like do you actually believe he considers Adolf Hitler to be his spiritual and political inspiration and do you expect him to file for planning permission for Birkenau 2.0 within the next decade? It just sounds too implausible to me. I dont believe it. But it is true that he performed a Hitler-greeting with a satisfied grunt, twice, in front of a political audience. It is also true that he tweets conspiracies about a the jews control the world. I dont know what to do with that or what that means. Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 14:31 oBlade wrote:On January 25 2025 09:09 Legan wrote:
Well surely the Musk salute will be okay going forwards with ADL and Netanyahu defending it. European leaders will love when their allies perform it too. Especially when Russia has tried to denazify Ukraine for a few years now. Western values will be respected around the world after this. How exactly are we supposed to square the new data? .... Do they just not know any better? Is it that they concede it's a Nazi salute but they're making a more general statement that despite doing a Nazi salute he's not a Nazi? .... Are they lying... Those all sound plausible to me yes. I would add that there is obvious political benefit to aligning with the Musk/Trump administration at this point in time. Personally I would assume that's why they did it.
My personal takeaway is that setting the bar at Neo-Nazi is way, way too low a standard and a bar to clear, and it’s pretty damn worrying what is societally permissible now that ‘not being literally Hitler 2.0’ is enough for some. But what does one do about it? Fucked if I know at this juncture.
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On January 27 2025 21:28 Geiko wrote:
Elon is a troll and he knows he has neo-nazi followers. So he does a nazi salute to troll the libs with plausible deniability (my heart goes out to you) and please his more extreme supporters. It’s really not that hard to understand.
That doesn’t make him a nazi quite yet, just a coked up far right troll.
okay then what makes him a nazi?
spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories? check.
supporting the facist trump? (if you don't think trump's a facist I recommend searching the internet what a facist is, read up about trump and watch some of his public speeches and comments.) check.
supporting extreme right winged parties? check.
and now add on top of that he made the most iconic of nazi gestures there is on the biggest of stages.
if you don't think he's nazi then... don't.
if you do think making this gesture alone doesn't make him a nazi quite yet? then add some context and read the line above.
ps: talking about this - be it musk, trump, russia or the state of public opinion in the european countries - is sooooo frustrating and sad. where the fuck is the decency? where the fuck is the love? and above all, where the fuck is the truth? feels like half of the western world doesn't give a shit about facts anymore. waaay too cumbersome i guess
edit: sorry for my tone. as I said I'm frustrated when it comes to topics like this. I don't mean to be rude. I think what I wanted to say is this:
is it actually important to you if making this gesture alone makes him a nazi? I don't understand why and I don't think it's important but - to answer your question - I don't think so. One data point is little to go by. Even if you only should judge by a quote "I am a nazi" it would be impossible to judge because context is very, very important.
If you add this context, look at his gesture and rephrase your question a bit to: With everything we know about him, is he now making his political convictions unambiguously clear with his Hitler Gruß? Then my answer would be, yes 
have a good one
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On January 27 2025 22:13 jodljodl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 21:28 Geiko wrote:
Elon is a troll and he knows he has neo-nazi followers. So he does a nazi salute to troll the libs with plausible deniability (my heart goes out to you) and please his more extreme supporters. It’s really not that hard to understand.
That doesn’t make him a nazi quite yet, just a coked up far right troll. okay then what makes him a nazi? spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories? check. supporting the facist trump? (if you don't think trump's a facist I recommend searching the internet what a facist is, read up about trump and watch some of his public speeches and comments.) check. supporting extreme right winged parties? check. and now add on top of that he made the most iconic of nazi gestures there is on the biggest of stages. if you don't think he's nazi then... don't. if you do think making this gesture alone doesn't make him a nazi quite yet? then add some context and read the line above. ps: talking about this - be it musk, trump, russia or the state of public opinion in the european countries - is sooooo frustrating and sad. where the fuck is the decency? where the fuck is the love? and above all, where the fuck is the truth? feels like half of the western world doesn't give a shit about facts anymore. waaay too cumbersome i guess
I think some of you are exagerating a bit. Trump isn’t a full blown fascist yet, he just uses inflammatory rhetoric because that’s what seems to work. Last time he was in office he got voted out, democrats still have « some » amount of control in the house and senate even now. The USA isn’t in Russia-levels of authoritarianism yet but it seems you guys are slowly getting there.
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On January 27 2025 22:29 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 22:13 jodljodl wrote:On January 27 2025 21:28 Geiko wrote:
Elon is a troll and he knows he has neo-nazi followers. So he does a nazi salute to troll the libs with plausible deniability (my heart goes out to you) and please his more extreme supporters. It’s really not that hard to understand.
That doesn’t make him a nazi quite yet, just a coked up far right troll. okay then what makes him a nazi? spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories? check. supporting the facist trump? (if you don't think trump's a facist I recommend searching the internet what a facist is, read up about trump and watch some of his public speeches and comments.) check. supporting extreme right winged parties? check. and now add on top of that he made the most iconic of nazi gestures there is on the biggest of stages. if you don't think he's nazi then... don't. if you do think making this gesture alone doesn't make him a nazi quite yet? then add some context and read the line above. ps: talking about this - be it musk, trump, russia or the state of public opinion in the european countries - is sooooo frustrating and sad. where the fuck is the decency? where the fuck is the love? and above all, where the fuck is the truth? feels like half of the western world doesn't give a shit about facts anymore. waaay too cumbersome i guess I think some of you are exagerating a bit. Trump isn’t a full blown fascist yet, he just uses inflammatory rhetoric because that’s what seems to work. Last time he was in office he got voted out, democrats still have « some » amount of control in the house and senate even now. The USA isn’t in Russia-levels of authoritarianism yet but it seems you guys are slowly getting there.
And yet he tried to steal the election anyway and illegally retain power. Trump is absolutely a full-blown fascist, as admitted by the people working closest with him during his first term. Trump thankfully wasn't successful in stealing the 2020 election, but that's because a few guard rails held up (like Mike Pence, weirdly enough), not because Trump wasn't truly fascist. Trump is even more fascist than Musk is a Nazi, and that's even with Musk giving Nazi salutes and supporting anti-Semitic propaganda and basically being a Nazi.
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On January 27 2025 22:29 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 22:13 jodljodl wrote:On January 27 2025 21:28 Geiko wrote:
Elon is a troll and he knows he has neo-nazi followers. So he does a nazi salute to troll the libs with plausible deniability (my heart goes out to you) and please his more extreme supporters. It’s really not that hard to understand.
That doesn’t make him a nazi quite yet, just a coked up far right troll. okay then what makes him a nazi? spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories? check. supporting the facist trump? (if you don't think trump's a facist I recommend searching the internet what a facist is, read up about trump and watch some of his public speeches and comments.) check. supporting extreme right winged parties? check. and now add on top of that he made the most iconic of nazi gestures there is on the biggest of stages. if you don't think he's nazi then... don't. if you do think making this gesture alone doesn't make him a nazi quite yet? then add some context and read the line above. ps: talking about this - be it musk, trump, russia or the state of public opinion in the european countries - is sooooo frustrating and sad. where the fuck is the decency? where the fuck is the love? and above all, where the fuck is the truth? feels like half of the western world doesn't give a shit about facts anymore. waaay too cumbersome i guess I think some of you are exagerating a bit. Trump isn’t a full blown fascist.
Oh but he is: He is agitating masses with his xenophobic and nationalistic statements. Also he makes it pretty clear that he is not interested in democracy but in focusing the power on him. Yes, one can argue, he's only saying this but he doesn't believe it. But how does he know? Should I believe his word over the actual person making these statements (and threats)?
8 years ago was different. Just look at what he did the first days back then and what he did the first days this term. This time they come grouped and prepared.
edit: ay yay yay. I sound so alarmistic. but... I actually believe by now it is time to be. Not looking just at the us but the whole of europe too. There's already a facist leading italy. From what it looks like, there'll soon be a facist running austria. And just yesterday the most probable candidate for chancellor in germany announced publicly that he is willing to cooperate in parliament with the facist party in germany for the very first time. Something that was an absolute no-go up until now. and it doesn't end there. look at france or poland or wherever...  ..
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On January 27 2025 18:29 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 03:29 Magic Powers wrote:On January 27 2025 02:21 KlaCkoN wrote:
So honest question:
Musk twice makes the Hitler-salute while giving a political speech. He also tweets stuff about Jews controlling the world etc.
Is Elon Musk a neo-nazi? Depends on who you're asking. Overt Neo-Nazis think he's one of them. I also think he's one of them. But there's a group of people in the middle that thinks he's not one of th... I mean not a Neo-Nazi. I guess I'm asking people in this thread. Everyone I have asked in real life seem to think he is not (a neo-nazi). Like do you actually believe he considers Adolf Hitler to be his spiritual and political inspiration and do you expect him to file for planning permission for Birkenau 2.0 within the next decade? It just sounds too implausible to me. I dont believe it. But it is true that he performed a Hitler-greeting with a satisfied grunt, twice, in front of a political audience. It is also true that he tweets conspiracies about a the jews control the world. I dont know what to do with that or what that means. Show nested quote +On January 27 2025 14:31 oBlade wrote:On January 25 2025 09:09 Legan wrote:
Well surely the Musk salute will be okay going forwards with ADL and Netanyahu defending it. European leaders will love when their allies perform it too. Especially when Russia has tried to denazify Ukraine for a few years now. Western values will be respected around the world after this. How exactly are we supposed to square the new data? .... Do they just not know any better? Is it that they concede it's a Nazi salute but they're making a more general statement that despite doing a Nazi salute he's not a Nazi? .... Are they lying... Those all sound plausible to me yes. I would add that there is obvious political benefit to aligning with the Musk/Trump administration at this point in time. Personally I would assume that's why they did it.
The way I label people is not by their beliefs, but by their words and actions. Elon is extremely radicalized and supports fascism all over the globe. He helped bring the fascist Trump into power and is now working for him. He supports the AfD, which is Germany's Nazi party. He has traditional conservative views. He is a conspiracy theorist. He spreads fearmongering about immigrants. He is the top player in the corporatist elite. He did the Nazi salute twice. He said Germany's culture should not get diluted by foreign cultures. And I could go on and on.
It really doesn't make a difference whether or not he admits to being a Nazi. He is a Nazi. The only question is how much more harm he can/will do and whether or not his influence can be destroyed before he goes full stache.
By the way many people who voted for Hitler also regretted their vote. They couldn't believe he was actually a monster. Well, they would've known that if they had read his book and looked at his actions more closely and without rose tinted glasses and without denialism.
Also, it doesn't matter if Elon is specifically a Nazi or any other brand of fascism. He's so extreme and so dangerous that he has to be treated as if he were a Nazi.
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On January 27 2025 21:28 Geiko wrote:
Elon is a troll and he knows he has neo-nazi followers. So he does a nazi salute to troll the libs with plausible deniability (my heart goes out to you) and please his more extreme supporters. It’s really not that hard to understand.
That doesn’t make him a nazi quite yet, just a coked up far right troll.
It doesn't matter if he believes in it or not. If you do a nazi salute to signal to nazi followers, it doesnt matter if its ironic or not-ironic.
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What are his conspiracy theories about Jews?
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On January 27 2025 21:28 Geiko wrote:
Elon is a troll and he knows he has neo-nazi followers. So he does a nazi salute to troll the libs with plausible deniability (my heart goes out to you) and please his more extreme supporters. It’s really not that hard to understand.
That doesn’t make him a nazi quite yet, just a coked up far right troll.
What then is his funding of Afd?
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EPT
