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Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 71

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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-03-29 01:24:02
March 29 2022 00:37 GMT
#1401
--- Nuked ---
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14104 Posts
March 29 2022 04:42 GMT
#1402
The biggest and the clearest sticking point will be on the water supply to crimea and where the lines are drawn in the east for donbass and luhansk.

I hope people aren't dumb enough to trust a "referendum on the deal" when so many people have left the country as refugees and all the people russia will claim lived in the east that they control to vote in said referendum.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43866 Posts
March 29 2022 05:05 GMT
#1403
Ukrainian government indicated that it was simultaneously unwilling to discuss territorial concessions and that it was willing to discuss a commitment to not retaking Crimea by force which seems contradictory.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16121 Posts
March 29 2022 06:36 GMT
#1404
On March 29 2022 14:05 KwarK wrote:
Ukrainian government indicated that it was simultaneously unwilling to discuss territorial concessions and that it was willing to discuss a commitment to not retaking Crimea by force which seems contradictory.


I believe the deal would be to go back to established borders prior to the current invasion leaving Crimea in Russian hands, which is something Ukraine was willing to do because they're basically sieging it anyway by cutting off its water supply.

I still don't buy Russia wanting to just take Donbas and call it a day. It's still going to look like a massive defeat no matter how you slice it and if Putin thinks this is enough to declare victory for himself I think he's going to be in for a rude awakening.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
mounteast0
Profile Joined January 2020
59 Posts
March 29 2022 07:37 GMT
#1405
On March 29 2022 15:36 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2022 14:05 KwarK wrote:
Ukrainian government indicated that it was simultaneously unwilling to discuss territorial concessions and that it was willing to discuss a commitment to not retaking Crimea by force which seems contradictory.


I believe the deal would be to go back to established borders prior to the current invasion leaving Crimea in Russian hands, which is something Ukraine was willing to do because they're basically sieging it anyway by cutting off its water supply.

I still don't buy Russia wanting to just take Donbas and call it a day. It's still going to look like a massive defeat no matter how you slice it and if Putin thinks this is enough to declare victory for himself I think he's going to be in for a rude awakening.



I think the audience is different, the "no territorial concession" is target toward Ukrainian, while the "commitment to not retake Crimea by force" are for Russian.

This kind of disparity in message is very common in politics, because we, as average civilian / population, are probably not going to follow what a particular person / entity said all the time. You can follow one closely on social media, but you simply not going to follow every speech (including closed door event), interview etc, there will always be chance to get out contradictory message without (large) part of people noticed.


calh
Profile Joined March 2013
537 Posts
March 29 2022 08:50 GMT
#1406
On March 29 2022 14:05 KwarK wrote:
Ukrainian government indicated that it was simultaneously unwilling to discuss territorial concessions and that it was willing to discuss a commitment to not retaking Crimea by force which seems contradictory.


Isn't that the SOP for the majority of disputed territory around the world? Like "we are never going to renounce our claim to this place, but we have no plan to attack it either". Also not that the Ukraine in this particular instance has any kind of non-military pressure they can apply beyond appealing to the West, but in principle they could do anything short of attacking to force Russia out of Crimea while keeping to their words.
gobbledydook
Profile Joined October 2012
Australia2605 Posts
March 29 2022 09:12 GMT
#1407
On March 29 2022 17:50 calh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2022 14:05 KwarK wrote:
Ukrainian government indicated that it was simultaneously unwilling to discuss territorial concessions and that it was willing to discuss a commitment to not retaking Crimea by force which seems contradictory.


Isn't that the SOP for the majority of disputed territory around the world? Like "we are never going to renounce our claim to this place, but we have no plan to attack it either". Also not that the Ukraine in this particular instance has any kind of non-military pressure they can apply beyond appealing to the West, but in principle they could do anything short of attacking to force Russia out of Crimea while keeping to their words.

Yeah that's essentially what the Argentinians did after losing the Falklands war. To this day they still claim the islands but have renounced military action.
I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6272 Posts
March 29 2022 10:30 GMT
#1408
On March 29 2022 14:05 KwarK wrote:
Ukrainian government indicated that it was simultaneously unwilling to discuss territorial concessions and that it was willing to discuss a commitment to not retaking Crimea by force which seems contradictory.

I don't have the source anymore but I've read a possible solution would be to lease Crimea and the Donbas region to Russia. Kind of like Hong Kong. It's the only way in which both those things are possible.
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany7142 Posts
March 29 2022 14:02 GMT
#1409
On March 29 2022 19:30 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2022 14:05 KwarK wrote:
Ukrainian government indicated that it was simultaneously unwilling to discuss territorial concessions and that it was willing to discuss a commitment to not retaking Crimea by force which seems contradictory.

I don't have the source anymore but I've read a possible solution would be to lease Crimea and the Donbas region to Russia. Kind of like Hong Kong. It's the only way in which both those things are possible.


There might be large gas and maybe oil reserves in those territories. How would leasing those go?

That's also why I really don't understand our (German) politics right now. Why don't they just buy gas/ oil from Ukraine instead of Russia? Obviously there are no pipelines in place (yet) but the general idea should be there, right?
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16121 Posts
March 29 2022 14:23 GMT
#1410
Headlines all over the internet are saying the Russians are withdrawing away from the cities amid the peace talks. Is the war's end in sight? Let's just hope so. Enough blood has been spilled already I would think.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-03-29 14:44:04
March 29 2022 14:41 GMT
#1411
On March 29 2022 23:02 Harris1st wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2022 19:30 RvB wrote:
On March 29 2022 14:05 KwarK wrote:
Ukrainian government indicated that it was simultaneously unwilling to discuss territorial concessions and that it was willing to discuss a commitment to not retaking Crimea by force which seems contradictory.

I don't have the source anymore but I've read a possible solution would be to lease Crimea and the Donbas region to Russia. Kind of like Hong Kong. It's the only way in which both those things are possible.


There might be large gas and maybe oil reserves in those territories. How would leasing those go?

That's also why I really don't understand our (German) politics right now. Why don't they just buy gas/ oil from Ukraine instead of Russia? Obviously there are no pipelines in place (yet) but the general idea should be there, right?
Russia is not going to accept a "lease" to Crimea or Donbass and share possible oil and gas revenues when they de facto control those areas. Ukraine is a net importer of oil and gas. There is simply no oil or gas to buy from Ukraine. Besides, even if there was, it is not as if Germany will gain first dibs on the oil and gas as they will have to compete for buying them at a global market.

On March 29 2022 23:23 Vindicare605 wrote:
Headlines all over the internet are saying the Russians are withdrawing away from the cities amid the peace talks. Is the war's end in sight? Let's just hope so. Enough blood has been spilled already I would think.
Russian advances on Kyiv, Chernihiv, Sumy and Kharkiv had already been stalled days ago. In some localised areas has even been pushed back. Nothing to do with peace talks. Yet Russia seems to be continuing to bombard and advance into Mariupol and still appears to be occupying Kherson. Withdrawing from cities they are not. I would put this as a case of Russia preying on wishful thinking with word games.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-03-29 14:44:12
March 29 2022 14:42 GMT
#1412
Jesus Christ... doesn't Radioactivity spread if you are too close to others etc. Most, it's being said, had never even heard of Chernobyl. But surely there are signs all over the place with Warnings.

LONDON (Reuters) -Russian soldiers who seized the site of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster drove their armoured vehicles without radiation protection through a highly toxic zone called the "Red Forest", kicking up clouds of radioactive dust, workers at the site said.

The two sources said soldiers in the convoy did not use any anti-radiation gear. The second Chernobyl employee said that was "suicidal" for the soldiers because the radioactive dust they inhaled was likely to cause internal radiation in their bodies.

Ukraine's state nuclear inspectorate said on Feb. 25 there had been an increase in radiation levels at Chernobyl as a result of heavy military vehicles disturbing the soil. But until now, details of exactly what happened had not emerged.

The two Ukrainian workers who spoke to Reuters were on duty when Russian tanks entered Chernobyl on Feb. 24 and took control of the site, where staff are still responsible for the safe storage of spent nuclear fuel and supervising the concrete-encased remains of the reactor that blew up in 1986.

Both men said they had witnessed Russian tanks and other armoured vehicles moving through the Red Forest, which is the most radioactively contaminated part of the zone around Chernobyl, around 100 km (65 miles) north of Kyiv.

The regular soldiers one of the workers spoke to when they worked alongside them in the facility had not heard about the explosion, he said.

Asked to comment on the accounts from Chernobyl staff, Russia's defence ministry did not respond.

The Russian military said after capturing the plant that radiation was within normal levels and their actions prevented possible "nuclear provocations" by Ukrainian nationalists. Russia has previously denied that its forces have put nuclear facilities inside Ukraine at risk.

OFF LIMITS

The site got its name when dozens of square kilometres of pine trees turned red after absorbing radiation from the 1986 explosion, one of the world's worst nuclear disasters.

A vast area around Chernobyl is off limits to anyone who does not work there or have special permission, but the Red Forest is considered so highly contaminated that even the nuclear plant workers are not allowed to go there.

The Russian military convoy went through the zone, the two employees said. One of them said it used an abandoned road.

"A big convoy of military vehicles drove along a road right behind our facility and this road goes past the Red Forest," said one of the sources.

"The convoy kicked up a big column of dust. Many radiation safety sensors showed exceeded levels," he said.

Valery Seida, acting general director of the Chernobyl plant, was not there at the time and did not witness the Russian convoy going into the Red Forest, but he said he was told by witnesses that Russian military vehicles drove everywhere around the exclusion zone and could have passed the Red Forest.

"Nobody goes there ... for God's sake. There is no one there," Seida told Reuters.

He said workers at the plant told the Russian service personnel they should be cautious about radiation, but he knew of no evidence that they paid attention.

"They drove wherever they needed to," Seida said.

After the Russian troops arrived, the two plant employees worked for almost a month along with colleagues until they were allowed to go home last week when Russian commanders allowed replacements for some of the staff to be sent in.

Reuters could not independently verify their accounts.

They were interviewed by phone on Friday on condition of anonymity because they feared for their safety. The next day Russian forces seized the town Slavutych near Chernobyl, where most plant workers live.

Seida and the mayor of Slavutych said on Monday that Russian forces had now left the town.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-03-29 14:48:41
March 29 2022 14:47 GMT
#1413
On March 29 2022 23:23 Vindicare605 wrote:
Headlines all over the internet are saying the Russians are withdrawing away from the cities amid the peace talks. Is the war's end in sight? Let's just hope so. Enough blood has been spilled already I would think.


They said they will ease the pressure on Kyiv and Chernivh. Which comes after them losing territory in both areas and being pushed back in both places. (and now it looks like indeed they are pulling some troops back there)
So this really is just an interesting spin of their military failures.
At the same time they stated (and shown on the ground) an increased focus on the south east.

And again, looking at indications on the ground, this looks like they are simply trying to create a stituation where they can stall the situation into an eternal conflict. If they occupy DNR/LNR in their self-proclaimed boundaries (which expand vastly over the territory they controlled before the war) + creating a land bridge to crimea and then demand this as peace deal. then this will be completely unacceptable for Ukraine. Then you will see some spectacularly staged referendum of the last 5 people surviving in Mariupol, where they talk about having always dreamed about being a part of Russia and then what does Ukraine and the world do?


Still, at least stock markets are eating up the news, because, regardless of if it was forced by their failures or "genuine", it is actually the first time Russia is pedaling back verbally. But mistaking this for a sign of a coming end of the war? Nah...
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-03-29 14:56:00
March 29 2022 14:55 GMT
#1414
The only danger they are to is to themselves, and other Russian soldiers who may inhale the radioactive dust fallen from the vehicles for the most part. And possibly the workers, but they will have the appropriate protective gear anyways and are far away inside a building.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 29 2022 15:24 GMT
#1415
And the dust? On Uniforms, vehicles etc?
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
March 29 2022 15:30 GMT
#1416
On March 30 2022 00:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
And the dust? On Uniforms, vehicles etc?

I think the danger is vastly overstated. If they gave us an approximation of the dose received it would be easier to say, but there are plenty of animals going in and out of that zone with 0 issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-03-29 15:36:02
March 29 2022 15:34 GMT
#1417
It will eventually disperse and be indistinguishable from background radiation. It's only a problem because the Russian soldiers have inhaled the dust. I find it really hard to care about the health of Russian soldiers in Ukraine to be honest. I am sure many will or have died horrible deaths, some more prolonged than others, but such is how a war is won or lost on both sides. I'll be more concerned about unexploded munitions and mines as danger to civilian population after the war. On a scale of caring I would give it 5/700.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-03-29 19:09:11
March 29 2022 19:08 GMT
#1418
Huge explosion reported near the Donbas region.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
SC-Shield
Profile Joined December 2018
Bulgaria842 Posts
March 29 2022 21:33 GMT
#1419
Yep, just remembered something. Remember when before this war started that they said they were conducting military exercise as planned? Then it was prolonged due to "genocide", then invasion happened. Yeah, that alleged retreat may turn out to be like a month ago. No retreat, just repositioning.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 29 2022 22:48 GMT
#1420
Another Senior Russian officer has been killed in Ukraine.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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