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On September 14 2023 21:35 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2023 19:09 zeo wrote:On September 14 2023 17:32 hitthat wrote:On September 13 2023 05:14 Ardias wrote:
Russia considers currently controlled Ukrainian territory as its own now, so it can't "go home", it's already at home defending. There was even an election weekend amidst all this.
Russian POV in short is that Ukrainian offensive achives nothing beside few villages, and Ukraine is suffering grave losses in return. Also that there could be no peace talks until UA offensive is on, there is a steady flow of new contract soldiers, and no need for a second wave of mobilization. Thankfully nobody is obliged to care about whatever Russia beliefs. Your countrymen may think annexing teritories by fait accompli is smart tactics, thankfuly we don't have to accept any delusions of so moronic proportions. Also, more your retarded talking heads gloat about using nukes against non-nuclear countries, more the belief that non-nuclear treaties are dead becomes common. Poland participating in any kind of NATO nuclear sharing programs is already seriously considered as desirable, and could bet if this trend continues, debate about suspending those non-proliferation treaties and having own nuclear program will be resurected from the graves. Unless you won't use nuke in Ukraine probably it will never go outside the simple boasting, thou. Edit: I just realised that this sounds more aggresive than I intended, but my indignation is at the hightest level since the february 2022. I do not mince my words in talking about that criminal war. Do you know how much a nuke program costs? Also no one is going to let Poland have a nuclear program unless you want to go the North Korea route. On September 13 2023 23:19 Manit0u wrote:On September 13 2023 22:09 JimmiC wrote:
This shows musk was wrong that attacking Russian navy would trigger nuclear war.
To be honest Musk hasn't been right about pretty much anything ever. By this logic there should be a lot of billionares in this thread just in regards to how the offencive is going. Went on a two week holiday, come back and its in the same place where I left it, bogged down with lots of drone videos of killed Ukrainians and equipment every day. Rasputnitsa fast approaching. Edit: insane that they are still going through with this Yeah noticed you were quiet. Did you see the destroyed submarine? So cool! Ukraine collaborating with Russia helping submarine go underwater.
Did you see the nowhere that offencive has gone over the last three and a half months with terrible losses and vehicle graveyards every km? I dont think thats so cool though, at least for the people in the human waves
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On September 15 2023 15:00 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2023 13:59 Ardias wrote:On September 15 2023 10:15 Mohdoo wrote:
China redraws a lot of maps and yet Taiwan exists. It is one of their favorite things to do, much like final warnings. That can't be compared to a military occupation where the previous user of the land has not had control for years.
If China rolls a huge military over their border to seize land from Russia, host their own elections for that land, and formally take steps to incorporate it into their country, that would qualify. No such thing has happened to a nuclear power. UK. Falklands war. This is an excellent example of a non-nuclear power invading a nuclear power's territory. And while nukes were deployed, I don't think the UK ever considered them an option in the course of the war. Maybe if they'd taken horrific losses and most of their navy was sunk, someone would be angry enough to nuke Buenos Aires, but we'll never know because the British navy was never pushed to that point. They definitely didn't openly threaten with red lines that were obviously not red lines about when they'd use their nukes. I don't think the UK would have pushed the button over the Falklands, no matter how badly they would lose.
If someone were to invade the British Isles itself sure, its possible. But not over the Falklands half the world away.
But that is a pretty unique situation, Very few countries own land far away from their main territory.
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On September 15 2023 17:09 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2023 21:35 0x64 wrote:On September 14 2023 19:09 zeo wrote:On September 14 2023 17:32 hitthat wrote:On September 13 2023 05:14 Ardias wrote:
Russia considers currently controlled Ukrainian territory as its own now, so it can't "go home", it's already at home defending. There was even an election weekend amidst all this.
Russian POV in short is that Ukrainian offensive achives nothing beside few villages, and Ukraine is suffering grave losses in return. Also that there could be no peace talks until UA offensive is on, there is a steady flow of new contract soldiers, and no need for a second wave of mobilization. Thankfully nobody is obliged to care about whatever Russia beliefs. Your countrymen may think annexing teritories by fait accompli is smart tactics, thankfuly we don't have to accept any delusions of so moronic proportions. Also, more your retarded talking heads gloat about using nukes against non-nuclear countries, more the belief that non-nuclear treaties are dead becomes common. Poland participating in any kind of NATO nuclear sharing programs is already seriously considered as desirable, and could bet if this trend continues, debate about suspending those non-proliferation treaties and having own nuclear program will be resurected from the graves. Unless you won't use nuke in Ukraine probably it will never go outside the simple boasting, thou. Edit: I just realised that this sounds more aggresive than I intended, but my indignation is at the hightest level since the february 2022. I do not mince my words in talking about that criminal war. Do you know how much a nuke program costs? Also no one is going to let Poland have a nuclear program unless you want to go the North Korea route. On September 13 2023 23:19 Manit0u wrote:On September 13 2023 22:09 JimmiC wrote:
This shows musk was wrong that attacking Russian navy would trigger nuclear war.
To be honest Musk hasn't been right about pretty much anything ever. By this logic there should be a lot of billionares in this thread just in regards to how the offencive is going. Went on a two week holiday, come back and its in the same place where I left it, bogged down with lots of drone videos of killed Ukrainians and equipment every day. Rasputnitsa fast approaching. Edit: insane that they are still going through with this Yeah noticed you were quiet. Did you see the destroyed submarine? So cool! Ukraine collaborating with Russia helping submarine go underwater. Did you see the nowhere that offencive has gone over the last three and a half months with terrible losses and vehicle graveyards every km? I dont think thats so cool though, at least for the people in the human waves
Thanks for showing your humane side, you can mourn Ukrainian losses once the war is over.
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On September 15 2023 13:59 Ardias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2023 10:15 Mohdoo wrote:
China redraws a lot of maps and yet Taiwan exists. It is one of their favorite things to do, much like final warnings. That can't be compared to a military occupation where the previous user of the land has not had control for years.
If China rolls a huge military over their border to seize land from Russia, host their own elections for that land, and formally take steps to incorporate it into their country, that would qualify. No such thing has happened to a nuclear power. UK. Falklands war.
The Falklands were under dispute and can't be considered essential to the existence of the UK. That's the most likely reason why nukes weren't being used. It's not even certain that the islands can be strictly considered UK's territory, since they're actually self-governing. They act more like UK's property.
In contrast, Ukraine's existence was threatened in various ways during this war. Kyiv itself was under direct threat, the state was declared illegitimate, and Russian troops entered Ukraine from every conceivable direction. This war is as essential to Ukraine as it could possibly get.
If such an attack would take place against the UK, I can assure you with near certainty they'd use their nukes for retaliation.
I think Mohdoo's argumentation is valid. I don't know how it would play out in reality, but it can't be easily dismissed.
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On September 15 2023 15:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Not sure Afghanistan having nukes would've been a good thing though. Iraq, possibly, even though wmd was the reason for invading, them actually having had wmd might have dissuaded the invasion. But then post-saddam chaos (whether from natural causes at a later point in time or otherwise) kinda points in the direction of 'not unlikely that IS gets a nuke' and that would've been bad. Basically yeah Ukraine having nukes would prolly have worked out better for them (unless crimea still happens and they retaliate with nukes and get nukes more in return), but there are way too many potentially unstable countries for 'all countries should have nukes' to be a remotely attractive option.
Russia is a nuclear powerhouse and it couldn't be a lot more unstable if it tried.
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On September 15 2023 18:09 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2023 15:00 Acrofales wrote:On September 15 2023 13:59 Ardias wrote:On September 15 2023 10:15 Mohdoo wrote:
China redraws a lot of maps and yet Taiwan exists. It is one of their favorite things to do, much like final warnings. That can't be compared to a military occupation where the previous user of the land has not had control for years.
If China rolls a huge military over their border to seize land from Russia, host their own elections for that land, and formally take steps to incorporate it into their country, that would qualify. No such thing has happened to a nuclear power. UK. Falklands war. This is an excellent example of a non-nuclear power invading a nuclear power's territory. And while nukes were deployed, I don't think the UK ever considered them an option in the course of the war. Maybe if they'd taken horrific losses and most of their navy was sunk, someone would be angry enough to nuke Buenos Aires, but we'll never know because the British navy was never pushed to that point. They definitely didn't openly threaten with red lines that were obviously not red lines about when they'd use their nukes. I don't think the UK would have pushed the button over the Falklands, no matter how badly they would lose. If someone were to invade the British Isles itself sure, its possible. But not over the Falklands half the world away. But that is a pretty unique situation, Very few countries own land far away from their main territory.
With very few you mean "outside of colonial powers, very few", right? Because both France and the UK still have little islands all over the place, the US has Guam (I think that's the furthest, but there might be some more islands in Polynesia: American Samoa or so?), Netherlands still has some islands in the Caribbean. Portugal has the Azores and Denmark has Greenland. I think Germany, Belgium, Italy and Spain divested themselves completely of their former colonies far far away (except for Spain's exclaves in Morocco, which aren't really half the world away: the Canary Islands are the furthest).
The question of whether a foreign nation invading a colony is a reason to nuke is an interesting one. NATO at least explicitly excluded invoking article 5 for territories south of the tropic of cancer, which is part of the reason why the UK didn't even try to invoke it over the Falklands. So extrapolating from that, I guess New Zealand invading French Polynesia wouldn't be cause for nukes either, but Venezuela invading French Guyana might be considered more serious, and Caracas might get glassed?
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Oh, and just in case anybody forgets, there is currently an ongoing territorial conflict between China and India over some mostly uninhabited bits of Himalayas, which are actually connected to their main territories (but very far away from Mumbai, Delhi, Beijing or Shanghai). Neither side is considering nukes.
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On September 15 2023 18:15 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2023 17:09 zeo wrote:On September 14 2023 21:35 0x64 wrote:On September 14 2023 19:09 zeo wrote:On September 14 2023 17:32 hitthat wrote:On September 13 2023 05:14 Ardias wrote:
Russia considers currently controlled Ukrainian territory as its own now, so it can't "go home", it's already at home defending. There was even an election weekend amidst all this.
Russian POV in short is that Ukrainian offensive achives nothing beside few villages, and Ukraine is suffering grave losses in return. Also that there could be no peace talks until UA offensive is on, there is a steady flow of new contract soldiers, and no need for a second wave of mobilization. Thankfully nobody is obliged to care about whatever Russia beliefs. Your countrymen may think annexing teritories by fait accompli is smart tactics, thankfuly we don't have to accept any delusions of so moronic proportions. Also, more your retarded talking heads gloat about using nukes against non-nuclear countries, more the belief that non-nuclear treaties are dead becomes common. Poland participating in any kind of NATO nuclear sharing programs is already seriously considered as desirable, and could bet if this trend continues, debate about suspending those non-proliferation treaties and having own nuclear program will be resurected from the graves. Unless you won't use nuke in Ukraine probably it will never go outside the simple boasting, thou. Edit: I just realised that this sounds more aggresive than I intended, but my indignation is at the hightest level since the february 2022. I do not mince my words in talking about that criminal war. Do you know how much a nuke program costs? Also no one is going to let Poland have a nuclear program unless you want to go the North Korea route. On September 13 2023 23:19 Manit0u wrote:On September 13 2023 22:09 JimmiC wrote:
This shows musk was wrong that attacking Russian navy would trigger nuclear war.
To be honest Musk hasn't been right about pretty much anything ever. By this logic there should be a lot of billionares in this thread just in regards to how the offencive is going. Went on a two week holiday, come back and its in the same place where I left it, bogged down with lots of drone videos of killed Ukrainians and equipment every day. Rasputnitsa fast approaching. Edit: insane that they are still going through with this Yeah noticed you were quiet. Did you see the destroyed submarine? So cool! Ukraine collaborating with Russia helping submarine go underwater. Did you see the nowhere that offencive has gone over the last three and a half months with terrible losses and vehicle graveyards every km? I dont think thats so cool though, at least for the people in the human waves Thanks for showing your humane side, you can mourn Ukrainian losses once the war is over.
Helping the future authorities find out the exact number of dead will be top priority along with accountability and responsibility of the current government that sent them there to die and bringing them to justice.
Lustration of anyone involved in this mess is not enough.
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zeo you want ukraine to just surrender to russia and let them annex all of ukraine right?
It really sounds like you think ukraine shouldn't fight for their country but I just want to be sure that's what you want, because it's very interesting and insane if that's what you think.
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On September 15 2023 19:47 Acrofales wrote:
Oh, and just in case anybody forgets, there is currently an ongoing territorial conflict between China and India over some mostly uninhabited bits of Himalayas, which are actually connected to their main territories (but very far away from Mumbai, Delhi, Beijing or Shanghai). Neither side is considering nukes.
Both sides have deescalated away from guns even and fight each other with improvised melee weapons.
Another hotter conflict is Pakistan and India. Despite using weapons and having been previously at war that conflict has been frozen solid due to nukes.
I think it's a fair assumption that nukes will indeed keep you safe. If Ukraine doesn't join NATO (and survives the war) it would be a no-brainer to acquire nuclear weapons. If they haven't reclaimed all their territory that could be a potentially very dangerous scenario.
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All zeo wants is "Nato baaad! West baaad! Therefore Ukraine baaad!"
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Russian Federation618 Posts
On September 15 2023 19:47 Acrofales wrote:
Oh, and just in case anybody forgets, there is currently an ongoing territorial conflict between China and India over some mostly uninhabited bits of Himalayas, which are actually connected to their main territories (but very far away from Mumbai, Delhi, Beijing or Shanghai). Neither side is considering nukes.
If we include smaller border disputes, then there is Sino-Soviet conflict over Damansky island back in 1969, when China tried to seize disputed island on the border, which resulted in armed clash with use of heavy armor and artillery (first combat use of BM-21 "Grad", actually). No nukes was there either.
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Zurich15366 Posts
You guys have to understand that it is a common Tankie tactic to frame Russia as sort of an inevitable force of nature, not an actor with responsibilities.
Thus it's entirely the responsibility of Ukrainians stemming themselves against the Russian flood that their citizens are getting killed. Of course no mention of the tens of thousands of Russians that are being ground up in the trenches of Donbas - well that's just the way nature works. No one is at fault here and nothing could be done about it.
That way you can simply turn around any argument. Tens of thousands of Russians are being wasted to turn Ukrainian cities into rubble and dust for absolutely nothing - but it's Ukraine that should act responsibly and stop fighting.
Russians from all over the country are being drafted and shoved into the meat grinder in a country they have never been to some 10 times zones away. But it's Ukraine that forces her citizens to fight in a place they supposedly don't want to be, and they should be responsible and stop it already.
And recall it's an inevitable force of nature. Any resistance just means it's your fault that your people die, and the result will not be changed for it.
It's a simple device to reflect all responsibility by not even talking about Russia as an actor, but a natural phenomenon.
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Norway28929 Posts
On September 15 2023 18:39 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2023 15:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Not sure Afghanistan having nukes would've been a good thing though. Iraq, possibly, even though wmd was the reason for invading, them actually having had wmd might have dissuaded the invasion. But then post-saddam chaos (whether from natural causes at a later point in time or otherwise) kinda points in the direction of 'not unlikely that IS gets a nuke' and that would've been bad. Basically yeah Ukraine having nukes would prolly have worked out better for them (unless crimea still happens and they retaliate with nukes and get nukes more in return), but there are way too many potentially unstable countries for 'all countries should have nukes' to be a remotely attractive option. Russia is a nuclear powerhouse and it couldn't be a lot more unstable if it tried.
While I think there are certainly less stable countries than Russia, this is (another) part of why the idea of Russia dissolving into smaller states and there being a power vacuum and chaos following Putin being ousted/dying is scary, even if neutering Russia is also a goal. Either way 'unstable country that is also a nuclear powerhouse' shouldn't be something to strive for, and seeing how there are plenty unstable countries in the world, 'nukes for everyone' doesn't sound like an attractive prospect to me.
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On September 15 2023 20:23 sertas wrote:
zeo you want ukraine to just surrender to russia and let them annex all of ukraine right?
It really sounds like you think ukraine shouldn't fight for their country but I just want to be sure that's what you want, because it's very interesting and insane if that's what you think.
Ukrainians are not fighting for the country they are fighting for their regime - that is the main difference. At no point ever was Ukraine at risk of not existing, the only people under existential threat are their political elite and they are putting warm bodies between them and their fall from positions where they can steal the peoples money. Political systems built around hate a racial purity always end up like this.
Its incredibly naive propaganda to say Ukraine as a state was somehow under threat of not existing after 26.02. but anything, even the most off the wall stupidity can be pushed because there is no space for rational thinking anymore.
Germany and Italy as states or as nations didnt stop existing after WW2, their political system did. France didnt stop existing after Napoleon. Ireland didnt stop existing though we all know what the British did. Ukraine is not south Vietnam, and in that case they are all Vietnamese today anyway just the political system died.
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On September 15 2023 21:00 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2023 20:23 sertas wrote:
zeo you want ukraine to just surrender to russia and let them annex all of ukraine right?
It really sounds like you think ukraine shouldn't fight for their country but I just want to be sure that's what you want, because it's very interesting and insane if that's what you think. Ukrainians are not fighting for the country they are fighting for their regime that is the main difference. At no point ever was Ukraine at risk of not existing, the only people under existential threat are their political elite and they are putting warm bodies between them and their fall from positions where they can steal the peoples money. Political systems built around hate a racial purity always end up like this. Its incredibly naive propaganda to say Ukraine as a state was somehow under threat of not existing after 26.02. but anything, even the most off the wall stupidity can be pushed because there is no space for rational thinking anymore. Germany and Italy as states or as nations didnt stop existing after WW2, their political system did. France didnt stop existing after Napoleon. Ireland didnt stop existing though we all know what the British did. Ukraine is not south Vietnam, and in that case they are all Vietnamese today anyway just the political system died. The Allies never claimed that West Germany was now part of France.
Yet Russia claims Crimea is now a part of Russia (and I believe has done the same for several other regions since the invasion).
So yes the country of Ukraine is very much under existential threat. Russia has made it very clear they want to remove Ukraine as a country.
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On September 15 2023 21:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2023 21:00 zeo wrote:On September 15 2023 20:23 sertas wrote:
zeo you want ukraine to just surrender to russia and let them annex all of ukraine right?
It really sounds like you think ukraine shouldn't fight for their country but I just want to be sure that's what you want, because it's very interesting and insane if that's what you think. Ukrainians are not fighting for the country they are fighting for their regime that is the main difference. At no point ever was Ukraine at risk of not existing, the only people under existential threat are their political elite and they are putting warm bodies between them and their fall from positions where they can steal the peoples money. Political systems built around hate a racial purity always end up like this. Its incredibly naive propaganda to say Ukraine as a state was somehow under threat of not existing after 26.02. but anything, even the most off the wall stupidity can be pushed because there is no space for rational thinking anymore. Germany and Italy as states or as nations didnt stop existing after WW2, their political system did. France didnt stop existing after Napoleon. Ireland didnt stop existing though we all know what the British did. Ukraine is not south Vietnam, and in that case they are all Vietnamese today anyway just the political system died. The Allies never claimed that West Germany was now part of France. Yet Russia claims Crimea is now a part of Russia (and I believe has done the same for several other regions since the invasion). So yes the country of Ukraine is very much under existential threat. Russia has made it very clear they want to remove Ukraine as a country.
I am just waiting for zeo to explain that the physical land is not under threat of stopping to exist, just the political entity. Or some similar nonsense.
And what about Russia? Why is it okay for Russia to send its people to die in Ukraine? If Russia is no threat to Ukraine, then surely Ukraine is no threat to Russia?
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On September 15 2023 21:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2023 21:00 zeo wrote:On September 15 2023 20:23 sertas wrote:
zeo you want ukraine to just surrender to russia and let them annex all of ukraine right?
It really sounds like you think ukraine shouldn't fight for their country but I just want to be sure that's what you want, because it's very interesting and insane if that's what you think. Ukrainians are not fighting for the country they are fighting for their regime that is the main difference. At no point ever was Ukraine at risk of not existing, the only people under existential threat are their political elite and they are putting warm bodies between them and their fall from positions where they can steal the peoples money. Political systems built around hate a racial purity always end up like this. Its incredibly naive propaganda to say Ukraine as a state was somehow under threat of not existing after 26.02. but anything, even the most off the wall stupidity can be pushed because there is no space for rational thinking anymore. Germany and Italy as states or as nations didnt stop existing after WW2, their political system did. France didnt stop existing after Napoleon. Ireland didnt stop existing though we all know what the British did. Ukraine is not south Vietnam, and in that case they are all Vietnamese today anyway just the political system died. The Allies never claimed that West Germany was now part of France. Yet Russia claims Crimea is now a part of Russia (and I believe has done the same for several other regions since the invasion). So yes the country of Ukraine is very much under existential threat. Russia has made it very clear they want to remove Ukraine as a country.
The territories acquired by Poland after World War II are known there as the Recovered Territories.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_eastern_territories_of_Germany
Interesting. Should Poland give this land back to Germany?
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Dude. What are you talking about?
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Russia already according to themselfs , annexed all the territory they managed to take so far and making it part of russia, so of course ukraine would cease to exists if russia took it all, it would now be called russia, so I really don't understand how zeo can think ukraine is not under existence threat.
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EPT
