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On September 13 2023 22:09 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2023 11:02 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Apparently Sevastopol is under missile attack.
This shows musk was wrong that attacking Russian navy would trigger nuclear war. Looks like North Korea going full alliance with Russia. Does this open South Korea to the Ukrainians as a source of weapons? Also just a terrible look, no point pretending if you team up with the most repressive dictatorship in the world.
South Korea has already been a Ukrainian weapon source through the USA.
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Apparently a landing ship, and Submarine were destroyed in the missile attack on Sevastopol.
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China can essentially abuse Russia in whatever way they want right now. So long as they are only chipping away at Russia in small ways, I think they can essentially do it for free. The economic and military reliance is too big for Russia to ever retaliate in a meaningful way. If they need North Korea, they need China. I think we can all agree NK is essentially just an extension of China in terms of global power dynamics and whatnot.
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From a consumer point a view it probably doesnt matter much. My Huwei phone was one of the best phones I've had. Chinese goods have come a long way.
From the economy point of view. Chinese companies do not fight fair. It's not unusual for raw materials and sub components for manufacturing to suddenly become unavalible if it suits the goverment or a company.
If you buy everything from China I would not be suprised if Russian companies suddenly experience problems buying things they need for production just as the Chinese competitor enter that specific market.
Or maybe it will work out great who knows.
The map thing I thought was about Russia publishing a map with Taiwan as a state and not a part of China and this was the reaction for that specifically.
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On September 14 2023 04:23 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
My Huwei phone was one of the best phones I've had. Chinese goods have come a long way.
Your Huawei used microchips from Taiwan tho, which would be export restricted. Which is why it's such a big deal that the newest Huawei supposedly uses Chinese 7nm microchips. Although from what I've seen, with the so much hush hush and mystery surrounding it, it could very well be vaporware.
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Taken at face value, this still means China's home grown technology is at least 2 years behind the US.
There was probably a lot of clandestine help and use of equipment that is now getting sanctioned and won't get support, so it will be interesting to see if Huawei can keep it up.
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On September 13 2023 05:14 Ardias wrote:
Russia considers currently controlled Ukrainian territory as its own now, so it can't "go home", it's already at home defending. There was even an election weekend amidst all this.
Russian POV in short is that Ukrainian offensive achives nothing beside few villages, and Ukraine is suffering grave losses in return. Also that there could be no peace talks until UA offensive is on, there is a steady flow of new contract soldiers, and no need for a second wave of mobilization.
Thankfully nobody is obliged to care about whatever Russia beliefs. Your countrymen may think annexing teritories by
fait accompli is smart tactics, thankfuly we don't have to accept any delusions of so moronic proportions. Also, more your retarded talking heads gloat about using nukes against non-nuclear countries, more the belief that non-nuclear treaties are dead becomes common. Poland participating in any kind of NATO nuclear sharing programs is already seriously considered as desirable, and could bet if this trend continues, debate about suspending those non-proliferation treaties and having own nuclear program will be resurected from the graves. Unless you won't use nuke in Ukraine probably it will never go outside the simple boasting, thou.
Edit: I just realised that this sounds more aggresive than I intended, but my indignation is at the hightest level since the february 2022. I do not mince my words in talking about that criminal war.
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On September 14 2023 17:32 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2023 05:14 Ardias wrote:
Russia considers currently controlled Ukrainian territory as its own now, so it can't "go home", it's already at home defending. There was even an election weekend amidst all this.
Russian POV in short is that Ukrainian offensive achives nothing beside few villages, and Ukraine is suffering grave losses in return. Also that there could be no peace talks until UA offensive is on, there is a steady flow of new contract soldiers, and no need for a second wave of mobilization. Thankfully nobody is obliged to care about whatever Russia beliefs. Your countrymen may think annexing teritories by fait accompli is smart tactics, thankfuly we don't have to accept any delusions of so moronic proportions. Also, more your retarded talking heads gloat about using nukes against non-nuclear countries, more the belief that non-nuclear treaties are dead becomes common. Poland participating in any kind of NATO nuclear sharing programs is already seriously considered as desirable, and could bet if this trend continues, debate about suspending those non-proliferation treaties and having own nuclear program will be resurected from the graves. Unless you won't use nuke in Ukraine probably it will never go outside the simple boasting, thou. Edit: I just realised that this sounds more aggresive than I intended, but my indignation is at the hightest level since the february 2022. I do not mince my words in talking about that criminal war.
Do you know how much a nuke program costs? Also no one is going to let Poland have a nuclear program unless you want to go the North Korea route.
On September 13 2023 23:19 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2023 22:09 JimmiC wrote:
This shows musk was wrong that attacking Russian navy would trigger nuclear war.
To be honest Musk hasn't been right about pretty much anything ever.
By this logic there should be a lot of billionares in this thread just in regards to how the offencive is going. Went on a two week holiday, come back and its in the same place where I left it, bogged down with lots of drone videos of killed Ukrainians and equipment every day. Rasputnitsa fast approaching.
Edit: insane that they are still going through with this
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On September 14 2023 19:09 zeo wrote:
Do you know how much a nuke program costs? Also no one is going to let Poland have a nuclear program unless you want to go the North Korea route.
Pffffffff. After use of the nukes on non-nuclear state even UN won't have the guts to embargo any country that starts its own nuclear program. I asure you in that case cost of the program will be no longer concern for us, as this will be the only way to be sure nobody will use the nuclear threat as a tool to enforce submision. Mere aggresion on the european soil allowed the goverment to raise the defence costs with no protests, and the pressure put on the budget is immerce. Existentional threats like this will give gov free hand even further. Countries like Poland are perfectly capable of building nukes in a 2 decades at most. Hell, NK did this, and the country itself is a third world shithole with population of 2/3rd of Poland. Also, I predict that in the case of nuclear use all bets will be off and every bigger non-nuclear coutry will start his own nuclear program, as this magnitude of voliation will make the non-nuclear treaties null in entirely.
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On September 14 2023 20:08 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2023 19:09 zeo wrote:
Do you know how much a nuke program costs? Also no one is going to let Poland have a nuclear program unless you want to go the North Korea route.
Pffffffff. After use of the nukes on non-nuclear state even UN won't have the guts to embargo any country that starts its own nuclear program. I asure you in that case cost of the program will be no longer concern for us, as this will be the only way to be sure nobody will use the nuclear threat as a tool to enforce submision. Countries like Poland are perfectly capable of building nukes in a 2 decades at most. Hell, NK did this, and the country itself is a third world shithole with population of 2/3rd of Poland. Also, I predict that in the case of nuclear use all bets will be off and every bigger non-nuclear coutry will start his own nuclear program, as this magnitude of voliation will make the non-nuclear treaties null in entirely.
Meh, just copy NK beat for beat. No need to waste all that money actually making a nuclear weapons program. Just launch a few missiles over Sweden and into the Norwegian sea, claim they're nuclear missile tests, and get on with your day.
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On September 14 2023 20:18 Excludos wrote:
Meh, just copy NK beat for beat. No need to waste all that money actually making a nuclear weapons program. Just launch a few missiles over Sweden and into the Norwegian sea, claim they're nuclear missile tests, and get on with your day.
In the case of real nuclear use nobody will play the half-measures game anymore. I predict even Japan with their nuclear taboo would start its own nuclear program. (and yes, I know it was sarcasm)
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On September 14 2023 19:09 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2023 17:32 hitthat wrote:On September 13 2023 05:14 Ardias wrote:
Russia considers currently controlled Ukrainian territory as its own now, so it can't "go home", it's already at home defending. There was even an election weekend amidst all this.
Russian POV in short is that Ukrainian offensive achives nothing beside few villages, and Ukraine is suffering grave losses in return. Also that there could be no peace talks until UA offensive is on, there is a steady flow of new contract soldiers, and no need for a second wave of mobilization. Thankfully nobody is obliged to care about whatever Russia beliefs. Your countrymen may think annexing teritories by fait accompli is smart tactics, thankfuly we don't have to accept any delusions of so moronic proportions. Also, more your retarded talking heads gloat about using nukes against non-nuclear countries, more the belief that non-nuclear treaties are dead becomes common. Poland participating in any kind of NATO nuclear sharing programs is already seriously considered as desirable, and could bet if this trend continues, debate about suspending those non-proliferation treaties and having own nuclear program will be resurected from the graves. Unless you won't use nuke in Ukraine probably it will never go outside the simple boasting, thou. Edit: I just realised that this sounds more aggresive than I intended, but my indignation is at the hightest level since the february 2022. I do not mince my words in talking about that criminal war. Do you know how much a nuke program costs? Also no one is going to let Poland have a nuclear program unless you want to go the North Korea route. Show nested quote +On September 13 2023 23:19 Manit0u wrote:On September 13 2023 22:09 JimmiC wrote:
This shows musk was wrong that attacking Russian navy would trigger nuclear war.
To be honest Musk hasn't been right about pretty much anything ever. By this logic there should be a lot of billionares in this thread just in regards to how the offencive is going. Went on a two week holiday, come back and its in the same place where I left it, bogged down with lots of drone videos of killed Ukrainians and equipment every day. Rasputnitsa fast approaching. Edit: insane that they are still going through with this
Yeah noticed you were quiet. Did you see the destroyed submarine? So cool! Ukraine collaborating with Russia helping submarine go underwater.
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On September 14 2023 21:35 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2023 19:09 zeo wrote:On September 14 2023 17:32 hitthat wrote:On September 13 2023 05:14 Ardias wrote:
Russia considers currently controlled Ukrainian territory as its own now, so it can't "go home", it's already at home defending. There was even an election weekend amidst all this.
Russian POV in short is that Ukrainian offensive achives nothing beside few villages, and Ukraine is suffering grave losses in return. Also that there could be no peace talks until UA offensive is on, there is a steady flow of new contract soldiers, and no need for a second wave of mobilization. Thankfully nobody is obliged to care about whatever Russia beliefs. Your countrymen may think annexing teritories by fait accompli is smart tactics, thankfuly we don't have to accept any delusions of so moronic proportions. Also, more your retarded talking heads gloat about using nukes against non-nuclear countries, more the belief that non-nuclear treaties are dead becomes common. Poland participating in any kind of NATO nuclear sharing programs is already seriously considered as desirable, and could bet if this trend continues, debate about suspending those non-proliferation treaties and having own nuclear program will be resurected from the graves. Unless you won't use nuke in Ukraine probably it will never go outside the simple boasting, thou. Edit: I just realised that this sounds more aggresive than I intended, but my indignation is at the hightest level since the february 2022. I do not mince my words in talking about that criminal war. Do you know how much a nuke program costs? Also no one is going to let Poland have a nuclear program unless you want to go the North Korea route. On September 13 2023 23:19 Manit0u wrote:On September 13 2023 22:09 JimmiC wrote:
This shows musk was wrong that attacking Russian navy would trigger nuclear war.
To be honest Musk hasn't been right about pretty much anything ever. By this logic there should be a lot of billionares in this thread just in regards to how the offencive is going. Went on a two week holiday, come back and its in the same place where I left it, bogged down with lots of drone videos of killed Ukrainians and equipment every day. Rasputnitsa fast approaching. Edit: insane that they are still going through with this Yeah noticed you were quiet. Did you see the destroyed submarine? So cool! Ukraine collaborating with Russia helping submarine go underwater.
Honestly not a big fan of Ukraine destroying Russian submarines on land. Ruins Russia's ability to sink their own trough sheer incompetence, and then refusing rescue from anyone with much better capabilities than their own, due to hubris.
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Elon turning off Starlink during UA operations around Crimea.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66752264
Edit: Apparently he now handed control over Starlink to the Pentagon, citing that he doesn't want to take responsibility for how his system is being used.
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United States43989 Posts
The theoretical basis for nuclear non proliferation is dead. Basically any country can get nukes, they’re not that hard to get if you’re determined to do it. If NK can do it anyone can.
But for 70 years we’ve had a consensus that you don’t invade non nuclear countries and yell “if you fight back I’ll nuke you” because then they have to get nukes and everyone getting nukes makes a nuclear incident way more likely and nuclear incidents can rapidly scale out of control.
Instead we have a handful of nuclear powers and then everyone else shelters under their umbrellas. Countries pick their nuclear ally and align with them to protect themselves from nuclear blackmail.
Russia has single-handedly destroyed that entire theory in Ukraine. Ukraine wasn’t under anyone’s umbrella but was slowly moving towards the US/French one and had prior assurances that it wouldn’t be subjected to nuclear blackmail from Russia. Then Russia declared that because it wasn’t technically under the US umbrella yet they could invade it and threaten to nuke anyone who helped Ukraine. That Ukraine wasn’t allowed to pick its sponsor, it had to be Russia.
That is one of the reasons China is so pissed at Russia for this stunt. It creates the likelihood of a nuclear Taiwan if ever US commitments start to waver. The independent nuclear deterrent is back on the table as a strategic necessity for many nations and that dramatically reduces the expansionist opportunities and great power lynchpin roles for China/Russia. Taiwan being aligned with the US isn’t great for China, they’d rather it were aligned with them. But that’s still preferable to Taiwan being an independent nuclear power with no need for a sponsor. China could aspire to replace the US as the regional power in the area in the next hundred years but it can’t create a need where none exists.
This is why no nuclear power has ever previously done this shit. Even as US forces were pushed to the sea in Korea the US didn’t threaten to nuke China (though some dummies certainly wanted to). If Poland decided to become a nuclear power there would be no good arguments against it. They have an aggressive nuclear armed neighbour engaging in nuclear blackmail and an unreliable nuclear partner in the US.
The theoretical basis for non proliferation is dead, the only thing keeping it going is that nuclear programs are expensive and politicians don’t like raising taxes. If Poland had even a slight doubt over whether a future US administration would be willing to destroy the world over Polish affairs then they must pursue a nuke. Being able to win a conventional war with Russia doesn’t count for shit if Russia nukes their army, threatens to nuke Warsaw if they don’t immediately surrender, and threatens to kill everyone if anyone else intervenes. If the US pulled out of NATO then they wouldn’t be able to get nukes overnight, if there’s a risk then they need to start the program ahead of time.
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United States43989 Posts
On September 14 2023 20:18 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2023 20:08 hitthat wrote:On September 14 2023 19:09 zeo wrote:
Do you know how much a nuke program costs? Also no one is going to let Poland have a nuclear program unless you want to go the North Korea route.
Pffffffff. After use of the nukes on non-nuclear state even UN won't have the guts to embargo any country that starts its own nuclear program. I asure you in that case cost of the program will be no longer concern for us, as this will be the only way to be sure nobody will use the nuclear threat as a tool to enforce submision. Countries like Poland are perfectly capable of building nukes in a 2 decades at most. Hell, NK did this, and the country itself is a third world shithole with population of 2/3rd of Poland. Also, I predict that in the case of nuclear use all bets will be off and every bigger non-nuclear coutry will start his own nuclear program, as this magnitude of voliation will make the non-nuclear treaties null in entirely. Meh, just copy NK beat for beat. No need to waste all that money actually making a nuclear weapons program. Just launch a few missiles over Sweden and into the Norwegian sea, claim they're nuclear missile tests, and get on with your day.
NK’s underground nuclear tests were confirmed by seismometers around the world. They have nukes.
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United States43989 Posts
On September 15 2023 00:01 Manit0u wrote:Elon turning off Starlink during UA operations around Crimea. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66752264Edit: Apparently he now handed control over Starlink to the Pentagon, citing that he doesn't want to take responsibility for how his system is being used.
The fact that he’s been actively turning it on and off is proof that up until now he has been personally responsible for how it was used. If he’d just left it on and done nothing then he could deny responsibility by saying that he has a policy of not reviewing and approving specific usages. He’s trying to have his cake and eat it too. If you don’t want responsibility then don’t actively assume that responsibility. It’s not hard.
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One thing to note regarding Poland. They have a triple guarantee with the UK and France added to the US one.
Russia's behavior does signal that a nuclear program now is a good idea. Unless Russia wins soon, then they will have a lot of veterans and could pivot that army somewhere else.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/E4NSw44.jpg)
