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Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 517

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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
ZeroByte13
Profile Joined March 2022
757 Posts
August 03 2023 15:45 GMT
#10321
I check this topic daily to catch up on war news but last 10-15 pages were far from being informative, unfortunately.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42429 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-03 15:54:16
August 03 2023 15:48 GMT
#10322
On August 04 2023 00:20 Ardias wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2023 00:00 KwarK wrote:
There is no reasonable discussion to be had on who the bad guy is. This is a WW2 remix and Putin is playing the part of Hitler.

"Something similar" referred to info about boots on the ground, actual frontline action, close rear etc., like the video Excludos had initially brought. Not about philosophical "good vs evil" arguments you had for the last 15 pages.

There’s an awful lot of fog of war involved and the actual fighting at the moment is largely small scale. In terms of the men dying both sides could sustain this forever. Frontline action news on a daily scale is “no news”.

The reason it gets called out as propaganda is because zeo’s triumphalist “some Ukrainian tanks were blown up crossing a minefield” is a trifecta of 1. Not news 2. Not unknown to anyone already 3. Not important.

This war is, by historical standards, being fought on a relatively small scale. Were this WW1 we would see about 2m men on either side. It will not be won by large maneuvers of infantry pushing through. The one instance we’ve seen of that, the Kharkiv counteroffensive, was a fairly small Ukrainian force pushing through a non existent Russian force. That will not be repeated. The combination of anti air, anti tank mines, artillery combined with drone spotting, and ATGMs has created a situation that forces low intensity warfare because concentrations of forces just results in being punished by missile strikes.

It will be won by exhaustion, either of Russia which is rapidly spending its Soviet inheritance or Ukraine which is dependent on a politically unreliable United States. In that context zeo’s gloating over the death of every Ukrainian patriot or the slow progress of the war, a war in which Ukrainian children are murdered daily, is frustrating. It rankles people to see gloating over the loss of brave men fighting to preserve their families against a genocidal enemy.

Of course people on the Ukrainian side also celebrate Russian failures, even though killing another 200 men in a HIMARS strike ultimately changes little. But the key difference is that those are invaders fighting on the pro genocide pro killing children side. Their death is worth celebrating. It gets us that little bit closer to the moment when missiles stop hitting school playgrounds. And that gets us straight back to the ideological issues. The difference between zeo gloating that Ukrainian patriots have died fighting in the invaders, even though it’s not relevant, and everyone else celebrating a strike on Russian troops is that one side is good and the other evil.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42429 Posts
August 03 2023 15:49 GMT
#10323
On August 04 2023 00:45 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I check this topic daily to catch up on war news but last 10-15 pages were far from being informative, unfortunately.

There is no daily war news. Wars take ages.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5531 Posts
August 03 2023 15:58 GMT
#10324
On August 03 2023 15:32 zeo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2023 01:37 maybenexttime wrote:
On August 02 2023 13:49 zeo wrote:
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote:
@zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?

I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.

Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.

Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.

You keep bringing up this "coup". Care to explain how it's relevant to the war? Ukraine has had multiple internationally recognised elections since then. As a matter of fact, Russia recognised each one of them.

Past events have no implications on modern events. Everything can be explained in bullet points with absolutely no context. Nothing happened in Ukraines political landscape since 2014 that had any consequences whatsoever. Those guys running Maidan all being kicked out of pollitics because they ran the country into the ground even more than the last guys? Eleven opposition parties being banned by Zelensky? Non government linked media banned? Neo-Nazi footsoldiers that did the dirtywork overthrowing the previous government being given concessions, government positions to the openly fascist Svoboda party and privilages?

Why take into account anything? Don't think about it.

Show nested quote +
On August 03 2023 06:08 maybenexttime wrote:
@Excludos

3rd OShB is former Azov. There are some neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian armed forces. That's true of any European/American military. Spx seems to think this is some sort of a revelation.

The difference is that the Ukrainian neo-Nazis, as repugnant their ideology may be, are risking their lives to protect innocent people. The Russian neo-Nazis, on the other hand, are in Ukraine to commit a genocide. I'll take Ukrainian neo-Nazis over Russian soldiers any day.

Reaching peak clown world here. Its like saying the bank robbers are protecting the innocent civilians inside the bank from the police that have surrounded them.

It's interesting to take a peek inside your imaginary world once in a while but are you trying to make a coherent point? Because you still haven't explained how a "coup" many years ago has any relevance after multiple election cycles.
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5531 Posts
August 03 2023 16:02 GMT
#10325
On August 03 2023 21:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2023 21:02 Excludos wrote:
On August 03 2023 20:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
On August 03 2023 18:14 Excludos wrote:
On August 03 2023 09:57 iFU.spx wrote:
On August 03 2023 08:38 Falling wrote:
On August 03 2023 07:32 iFU.spx wrote:
On August 03 2023 06:20 Excludos wrote:
On August 03 2023 06:19 iFU.spx wrote:
On August 03 2023 06:08 maybenexttime wrote:
@Excludos

3rd OShB is former Azov. There are some neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian armed forces. That's true of any European/American military. Spx seems to think this is some sort of a revelation.

The difference is that the Ukrainian neo-Nazis, as repugnant their ideology may be, are risking their lives to protect innocent people. The Russian neo-Nazis, on the other hand, are in Ukraine to commit a genocide. I'll take Ukrainian neo-Nazis over Russian soldiers any day.


Indeed there is no revelation in this. Hotter, but still not deep enough.


A debate is not a guessing game of hot or cold. Grow up. If you have something to say, say it


We are not debating. You just shared a video you find interesting from your point of view, I noticed additional interesting thing in the video from my point of view. Sorry to say, but you started the guessing game with "oh i get it now" instead of asking for example "what do I find interesting about this guy".

Seems to me you were not volunteering information, but instead wanted people to 'find information'. And once we found that information you were interested in our thoughts. Apparently the information they found was not the information you were thinking about. Now given that this information does not seem quite so easily available and your attempts to get us to mind read has thus far confirmed that TL is not filled with clairvoyants, I guess I will bite...

What, Mr. iFU.spx did you find so very interesting a page and a half ago that you so badly wanted to hear our thoughts that you have kept us guessing?

...

Please.


Well, at least you tried.

The most interesting thing from the video for me was to read about the guy with such strange nickname Kolovrat (and this is actually his real name now, he was Alexey, but he changed). Since this youtube channel is pretty big and has a lot of links (even website for recruiting) it was not so hard to find info about him even if you don’t speak ru or ukr (bad try @Excludos). Turns out he is known russian neo nazi, who did bad things in his city in ru, was in jail, and had to left ru, because of fear of criminal prosecution again. He is not even ukranian, but found shelter in azov.

Seeing as I didn't know who it was, couldn't find out who it was, the video had zero nazi propaganda in it, and the point of me sharing the video had nothing to do with Nazism, I think it's fair to say we are well well beyond just a digression here.

It's a neo-nazi propaganda recruitment video that is a couple clicks from a call of duty inspired recruitment page for a known neo-nazi group. I don't think you intentionally shared it to help them recruit (though everyone seems fine giving nazis guns as long as they aim them at Russia first), but that's what it is.


I did not, but way way more importantly; it doesn't matter. You claim the video is a neo-nazi propaganda recruitment video, which makes exactly zero sense. There is no mention or show any ideology in the video itself, it only shows the reality of war. The things I wanted to highlight with it (Which I specified in the post) has nothing to do with anything anyone has brought up.

But it's an cool way to derail a discussion I suppose. Good job on that

It literally leads to a recruitment page for a known neo-nazi group. Whether it mentions the prominent ideology of the group or not is a style choice. It does make it easier to spread, for what should be pretty apparent reasons now. Maybe next time be a bit more thoughtful of your source for a video like that, or just don't care, either way I'll leave it there.

Which neo-Nazi group?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42429 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-03 16:16:07
August 03 2023 16:07 GMT
#10326
On August 04 2023 00:58 maybenexttime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2023 15:32 zeo wrote:
On August 03 2023 01:37 maybenexttime wrote:
On August 02 2023 13:49 zeo wrote:
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote:
@zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?

I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.

Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.

Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.

You keep bringing up this "coup". Care to explain how it's relevant to the war? Ukraine has had multiple internationally recognised elections since then. As a matter of fact, Russia recognised each one of them.

Past events have no implications on modern events. Everything can be explained in bullet points with absolutely no context. Nothing happened in Ukraines political landscape since 2014 that had any consequences whatsoever. Those guys running Maidan all being kicked out of pollitics because they ran the country into the ground even more than the last guys? Eleven opposition parties being banned by Zelensky? Non government linked media banned? Neo-Nazi footsoldiers that did the dirtywork overthrowing the previous government being given concessions, government positions to the openly fascist Svoboda party and privilages?

Why take into account anything? Don't think about it.

On August 03 2023 06:08 maybenexttime wrote:
@Excludos

3rd OShB is former Azov. There are some neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian armed forces. That's true of any European/American military. Spx seems to think this is some sort of a revelation.

The difference is that the Ukrainian neo-Nazis, as repugnant their ideology may be, are risking their lives to protect innocent people. The Russian neo-Nazis, on the other hand, are in Ukraine to commit a genocide. I'll take Ukrainian neo-Nazis over Russian soldiers any day.

Reaching peak clown world here. Its like saying the bank robbers are protecting the innocent civilians inside the bank from the police that have surrounded them.

It's interesting to take a peek inside your imaginary world once in a while but are you trying to make a coherent point? Because you still haven't explained how a "coup" many years ago has any relevance after multiple election cycles.

Also the response to a coup is to depose the leader of the coup, reinstate the old leader as a provisional government, and then hold elections.

If the leader of the coup has already left and internationally recognized elections (recognized by Russia too) have already been held then job done.

Nowhere in that response does it say “annex half the country”. Even if we accept the premise of the coup there is no possible line between the coup and Russia’s subsequent actions.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
August 03 2023 16:45 GMT
#10327
--- Nuked ---
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6281 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-03 17:36:08
August 03 2023 17:15 GMT
#10328
On August 04 2023 01:07 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2023 00:58 maybenexttime wrote:
On August 03 2023 15:32 zeo wrote:
On August 03 2023 01:37 maybenexttime wrote:
On August 02 2023 13:49 zeo wrote:
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote:
@zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?

I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.

Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.

Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.

You keep bringing up this "coup". Care to explain how it's relevant to the war? Ukraine has had multiple internationally recognised elections since then. As a matter of fact, Russia recognised each one of them.

Past events have no implications on modern events. Everything can be explained in bullet points with absolutely no context. Nothing happened in Ukraines political landscape since 2014 that had any consequences whatsoever. Those guys running Maidan all being kicked out of pollitics because they ran the country into the ground even more than the last guys? Eleven opposition parties being banned by Zelensky? Non government linked media banned? Neo-Nazi footsoldiers that did the dirtywork overthrowing the previous government being given concessions, government positions to the openly fascist Svoboda party and privilages?

Why take into account anything? Don't think about it.

On August 03 2023 06:08 maybenexttime wrote:
@Excludos

3rd OShB is former Azov. There are some neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian armed forces. That's true of any European/American military. Spx seems to think this is some sort of a revelation.

The difference is that the Ukrainian neo-Nazis, as repugnant their ideology may be, are risking their lives to protect innocent people. The Russian neo-Nazis, on the other hand, are in Ukraine to commit a genocide. I'll take Ukrainian neo-Nazis over Russian soldiers any day.

Reaching peak clown world here. Its like saying the bank robbers are protecting the innocent civilians inside the bank from the police that have surrounded them.

It's interesting to take a peek inside your imaginary world once in a while but are you trying to make a coherent point? Because you still haven't explained how a "coup" many years ago has any relevance after multiple election cycles.

Also the response to a coup is to depose the leader of the coup, reinstate the old leader as a provisional government, and then hold elections.

If the leader of the coup has already left and internationally recognized elections (recognized by Russia too) have already been held then job done.

Nowhere in that response does it say “annex half the country”. Even if we accept the premise of the coup there is no possible line between the coup and Russia’s subsequent actions.

The violent overthrow of a democratically elected government in a deeply divided country was always going to have this outcome. When those that come to power through said coup immediately start pushing through reforms that ostracized half the population, started cracking down on dissident media, start cracking down on anti-coup protesters, murdering them on the streets, threatening ethnic cleansing to the point an entire region used the post-coup chaos to split off from the country you know you have fucked up.

When the Donbass stood up to the newly unelected officials in Kiev curbing their rights Arsen Avakov proclaimed his two week anti terrorist operation will put an end to any anti-Maidan sentiment. Well its been nine years since he started that two week operation and the people of the Donbass are still there and still fighting for their homes while Avakov and his ilk are millionaires or in some cases billionaires. War is the quickest war to extract money and wealth on industrial levels from a population and oh boy, did the newly unelected officials steal.

When you plunder, steal and destroy a society to the extent the post-Maidan government had, you need to point fingers at the boogeyman, the boogeyman is the reason you are poor, the boogeyman closed your factory, the boogeyman built my offshore villas with your taxpayer money. And when you have nowhere else to run, when the walls start closing in and you don't know how you will get out of all of this with all of your stolen riches.. well... just sacrifice everyone to the boogeyman when the boogeyman comes for you alone. Throw every man, woman and child in front of you.

I have the same position today as I had in our Ukraine thread from 2014. If Russia steps in to prop up Yanukovych by force the US and its satellites will fund and prop up a proxy war in western Ukraine, if the US overthrows the government Russia will intervene on behalf of the Russia population in Eastern Ukraine. Not violently overthrowing the government and slowly pushing through reforms while playing both sides for money is the only way Ukraine could have pulled through without a war.
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3798 Posts
August 03 2023 17:46 GMT
#10329
Gee I wonder who left behind more corpses. Arsen Avakov or Putin. A handful, or a few hundred thousand. I can hardly tell the difference.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9110 Posts
August 03 2023 18:27 GMT
#10330
On August 04 2023 02:15 zeo wrote:
I have the same position today as I had in our Ukraine thread from 2014. If Russia steps in to prop up Yanukovych by force the US and its satellites will fund and prop up a proxy war in western Ukraine, if the US overthrows the government Russia will intervene on behalf of the Russia population in Eastern Ukraine. Not violently overthrowing the government and slowly pushing through reforms while playing both sides for money is the only way Ukraine could have pulled through without a war.

Visa-free travel and further economic integration with the EU was super popular in Ukraine, and Yanukovych signed an action plan with the EU in this regard. Russia then twisted his arm into dropping out of those plans. This is what caused Euromaidan, Russia being an overbearing master with a pro-Russian president that wasn't sufficiently anti-democratic for their tastes. Compared to Russia's contribution, the US caused Euromaidan about as much as your farts caused climate change.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
August 03 2023 18:48 GMT
#10331
--- Nuked ---
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
August 04 2023 00:14 GMT
#10332
--- Nuked ---
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6281 Posts
August 04 2023 06:23 GMT
#10333
On August 04 2023 03:27 Dan HH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2023 02:15 zeo wrote:
I have the same position today as I had in our Ukraine thread from 2014. If Russia steps in to prop up Yanukovych by force the US and its satellites will fund and prop up a proxy war in western Ukraine, if the US overthrows the government Russia will intervene on behalf of the Russia population in Eastern Ukraine. Not violently overthrowing the government and slowly pushing through reforms while playing both sides for money is the only way Ukraine could have pulled through without a war.

Visa-free travel and further economic integration with the EU was super popular in Ukraine, and Yanukovych signed an action plan with the EU in this regard. Russia then twisted his arm into dropping out of those plans. This is what caused Euromaidan, Russia being an overbearing master with a pro-Russian president that wasn't sufficiently anti-democratic for their tastes. Compared to Russia's contribution, the US caused Euromaidan about as much as your farts caused climate change.

Here's a quote from December 2013 from then Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria "fuck the EU" Nuland:

"Since Ukraine's independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations," she said. "We have invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine."

https://2009-2017.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2013/dec/218804.htm

Five billion dollars can go a long way in undermining a politically unstable country over a long period of time to the point where it becomes unstable in your favor. In this case over a period of 20 years and a color revolution before 2014. Just saying.
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42429 Posts
August 04 2023 06:32 GMT
#10334
That’s just a modern Marshall Plan to build diplomacy and trade. Also $5b over 20 years isn’t very much.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4544 Posts
August 04 2023 06:49 GMT
#10335
Evil americans gave money, nice russia gives freedom bombs. Be free from american money.
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3798 Posts
August 04 2023 06:53 GMT
#10336
The "everything is morally gray" guy is spending an awful lot of time trying to prove that the US and Ukraine are evil, while spending not a single minute on Russia's most obvious political manipulation, invasion, terror and war crimes.
Very "not-black-and-white" from our "not-pro-Russia-guy".
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6281 Posts
August 04 2023 07:16 GMT
#10337
So an analysis of the first three posted answers:

@kwark - dont know what you are trying to get at with the Marshal plan angle. The US didnt build roads in Ukraine. It funded anti-government institutions and programs in a country where 5 billion dollars can pay for a lot

@0x64 - thats a cringe way of building a strawman, does this way of talking work for you in real life?

@Magic - the guy 'done with me' seems to have a new fixation with my posts after his Hitler episodes. I look to spend as much time on Russia as you spend on Ukraine, balance in all things is key. I really hope you will start talking more about the problems inside Ukraine so I dont have to be the one to do it and I can shift focus to Russia.

All in all at least Kwark tried to shift the goalposts and add something, the only non-shitpost of the three
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4544 Posts
August 04 2023 07:21 GMT
#10338
On August 04 2023 16:16 zeo wrote:
So an analysis of the first three posted answers:

@kwark - dont know what you are trying to get at with the Marshal plan angle. The US didnt build roads in Ukraine. It funded anti-government institutions and programs in a country where 5 billion dollars can pay for a lot

@0x64 - thats a cringe way of building a strawman, does this way of talking work for you in real life?

@Magic - the guy 'done with me' seems to have a new fixation with my posts after his Hitler episodes. I look to spend as much time on Russia as you spend on Ukraine, balance in all things is key. I really hope you will start talking more about the problems inside Ukraine so I dont have to be the one to do it and I can shift focus to Russia.

All in all at least Kwark tried to shift the goalposts and add something, the only non-shitpost of the three


Are you taking time from your family to argue on the internet about how good is the russian war?
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3798 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-04 07:22:27
August 04 2023 07:22 GMT
#10339
On August 04 2023 16:16 zeo wrote:
So an analysis of the first three posted answers:

@kwark - dont know what you are trying to get at with the Marshal plan angle. The US didnt build roads in Ukraine. It funded anti-government institutions and programs in a country where 5 billion dollars can pay for a lot

@0x64 - thats a cringe way of building a strawman, does this way of talking work for you in real life?

@Magic - the guy 'done with me' seems to have a new fixation with my posts after his Hitler episodes. I look to spend as much time on Russia as you spend on Ukraine, balance in all things is key. I really hope you will start talking more about the problems inside Ukraine so I dont have to be the one to do it and I can shift focus to Russia.

All in all at least Kwark tried to shift the goalposts and add something, the only non-shitpost of the three



I am done with you. But you're not alone here, and my policy is to not talk to you anymore. Doesn't mean I can't reveal how much of a hypocrite you are.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4544 Posts
August 04 2023 08:01 GMT
#10340
On August 04 2023 16:16 zeo wrote:
So an analysis of the first three posted answers:

@kwark - dont know what you are trying to get at with the Marshal plan angle. The US didnt build roads in Ukraine. It funded anti-government institutions and programs in a country where 5 billion dollars can pay for a lot

@0x64 - thats a cringe way of building a strawman, does this way of talking work for you in real life?

@Magic - the guy 'done with me' seems to have a new fixation with my posts after his Hitler episodes. I look to spend as much time on Russia as you spend on Ukraine, balance in all things is key. I really hope you will start talking more about the problems inside Ukraine so I dont have to be the one to do it and I can shift focus to Russia.

All in all at least Kwark tried to shift the goalposts and add something, the only non-shitpost of the three


I didn't feel I needed to add anything to the fantastic post of Kwark. We do not need to individually repeat the same things.
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
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