EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 517
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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. | ||
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ZeroByte13
758 Posts
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KwarK
United States42489 Posts
On August 04 2023 00:20 Ardias wrote: "Something similar" referred to info about boots on the ground, actual frontline action, close rear etc., like the video Excludos had initially brought. Not about philosophical "good vs evil" arguments you had for the last 15 pages. There’s an awful lot of fog of war involved and the actual fighting at the moment is largely small scale. In terms of the men dying both sides could sustain this forever. Frontline action news on a daily scale is “no news”. The reason it gets called out as propaganda is because zeo’s triumphalist “some Ukrainian tanks were blown up crossing a minefield” is a trifecta of 1. Not news 2. Not unknown to anyone already 3. Not important. This war is, by historical standards, being fought on a relatively small scale. Were this WW1 we would see about 2m men on either side. It will not be won by large maneuvers of infantry pushing through. The one instance we’ve seen of that, the Kharkiv counteroffensive, was a fairly small Ukrainian force pushing through a non existent Russian force. That will not be repeated. The combination of anti air, anti tank mines, artillery combined with drone spotting, and ATGMs has created a situation that forces low intensity warfare because concentrations of forces just results in being punished by missile strikes. It will be won by exhaustion, either of Russia which is rapidly spending its Soviet inheritance or Ukraine which is dependent on a politically unreliable United States. In that context zeo’s gloating over the death of every Ukrainian patriot or the slow progress of the war, a war in which Ukrainian children are murdered daily, is frustrating. It rankles people to see gloating over the loss of brave men fighting to preserve their families against a genocidal enemy. Of course people on the Ukrainian side also celebrate Russian failures, even though killing another 200 men in a HIMARS strike ultimately changes little. But the key difference is that those are invaders fighting on the pro genocide pro killing children side. Their death is worth celebrating. It gets us that little bit closer to the moment when missiles stop hitting school playgrounds. And that gets us straight back to the ideological issues. The difference between zeo gloating that Ukrainian patriots have died fighting in the invaders, even though it’s not relevant, and everyone else celebrating a strike on Russian troops is that one side is good and the other evil. | ||
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KwarK
United States42489 Posts
On August 04 2023 00:45 ZeroByte13 wrote: I check this topic daily to catch up on war news but last 10-15 pages were far from being informative, unfortunately. There is no daily war news. Wars take ages. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5534 Posts
On August 03 2023 15:32 zeo wrote: Past events have no implications on modern events. Everything can be explained in bullet points with absolutely no context. Nothing happened in Ukraines political landscape since 2014 that had any consequences whatsoever. Those guys running Maidan all being kicked out of pollitics because they ran the country into the ground even more than the last guys? Eleven opposition parties being banned by Zelensky? Non government linked media banned? Neo-Nazi footsoldiers that did the dirtywork overthrowing the previous government being given concessions, government positions to the openly fascist Svoboda party and privilages? Why take into account anything? Don't think about it. Reaching peak clown world here. Its like saying the bank robbers are protecting the innocent civilians inside the bank from the police that have surrounded them. It's interesting to take a peek inside your imaginary world once in a while but are you trying to make a coherent point? Because you still haven't explained how a "coup" many years ago has any relevance after multiple election cycles. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5534 Posts
On August 03 2023 21:18 GreenHorizons wrote: It literally leads to a recruitment page for a known neo-nazi group. Whether it mentions the prominent ideology of the group or not is a style choice. It does make it easier to spread, for what should be pretty apparent reasons now. Maybe next time be a bit more thoughtful of your source for a video like that, or just don't care, either way I'll leave it there. Which neo-Nazi group? | ||
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KwarK
United States42489 Posts
On August 04 2023 00:58 maybenexttime wrote: It's interesting to take a peek inside your imaginary world once in a while but are you trying to make a coherent point? Because you still haven't explained how a "coup" many years ago has any relevance after multiple election cycles. Also the response to a coup is to depose the leader of the coup, reinstate the old leader as a provisional government, and then hold elections. If the leader of the coup has already left and internationally recognized elections (recognized by Russia too) have already been held then job done. Nowhere in that response does it say “annex half the country”. Even if we accept the premise of the coup there is no possible line between the coup and Russia’s subsequent actions. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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zeo
Serbia6282 Posts
On August 04 2023 01:07 KwarK wrote: Also the response to a coup is to depose the leader of the coup, reinstate the old leader as a provisional government, and then hold elections. If the leader of the coup has already left and internationally recognized elections (recognized by Russia too) have already been held then job done. Nowhere in that response does it say “annex half the country”. Even if we accept the premise of the coup there is no possible line between the coup and Russia’s subsequent actions. The violent overthrow of a democratically elected government in a deeply divided country was always going to have this outcome. When those that come to power through said coup immediately start pushing through reforms that ostracized half the population, started cracking down on dissident media, start cracking down on anti-coup protesters, murdering them on the streets, threatening ethnic cleansing to the point an entire region used the post-coup chaos to split off from the country you know you have fucked up. When the Donbass stood up to the newly unelected officials in Kiev curbing their rights Arsen Avakov proclaimed his two week anti terrorist operation will put an end to any anti-Maidan sentiment. Well its been nine years since he started that two week operation and the people of the Donbass are still there and still fighting for their homes while Avakov and his ilk are millionaires or in some cases billionaires. War is the quickest war to extract money and wealth on industrial levels from a population and oh boy, did the newly unelected officials steal. When you plunder, steal and destroy a society to the extent the post-Maidan government had, you need to point fingers at the boogeyman, the boogeyman is the reason you are poor, the boogeyman closed your factory, the boogeyman built my offshore villas with your taxpayer money. And when you have nowhere else to run, when the walls start closing in and you don't know how you will get out of all of this with all of your stolen riches.. well... just sacrifice everyone to the boogeyman when the boogeyman comes for you alone. Throw every man, woman and child in front of you. I have the same position today as I had in our Ukraine thread from 2014. If Russia steps in to prop up Yanukovych by force the US and its satellites will fund and prop up a proxy war in western Ukraine, if the US overthrows the government Russia will intervene on behalf of the Russia population in Eastern Ukraine. Not violently overthrowing the government and slowly pushing through reforms while playing both sides for money is the only way Ukraine could have pulled through without a war. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3849 Posts
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Dan HH
Romania9111 Posts
On August 04 2023 02:15 zeo wrote: I have the same position today as I had in our Ukraine thread from 2014. If Russia steps in to prop up Yanukovych by force the US and its satellites will fund and prop up a proxy war in western Ukraine, if the US overthrows the government Russia will intervene on behalf of the Russia population in Eastern Ukraine. Not violently overthrowing the government and slowly pushing through reforms while playing both sides for money is the only way Ukraine could have pulled through without a war. Visa-free travel and further economic integration with the EU was super popular in Ukraine, and Yanukovych signed an action plan with the EU in this regard. Russia then twisted his arm into dropping out of those plans. This is what caused Euromaidan, Russia being an overbearing master with a pro-Russian president that wasn't sufficiently anti-democratic for their tastes. Compared to Russia's contribution, the US caused Euromaidan about as much as your farts caused climate change. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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zeo
Serbia6282 Posts
On August 04 2023 03:27 Dan HH wrote: Visa-free travel and further economic integration with the EU was super popular in Ukraine, and Yanukovych signed an action plan with the EU in this regard. Russia then twisted his arm into dropping out of those plans. This is what caused Euromaidan, Russia being an overbearing master with a pro-Russian president that wasn't sufficiently anti-democratic for their tastes. Compared to Russia's contribution, the US caused Euromaidan about as much as your farts caused climate change. Here's a quote from December 2013 from then Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria "fuck the EU" Nuland: "Since Ukraine's independence in 1991, the United States has supported Ukrainians as they build democratic skills and institutions, as they promote civic participation and good governance, all of which are preconditions for Ukraine to achieve its European aspirations," she said. "We have invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine." https://2009-2017.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2013/dec/218804.htm Five billion dollars can go a long way in undermining a politically unstable country over a long period of time to the point where it becomes unstable in your favor. In this case over a period of 20 years and a color revolution before 2014. Just saying. | ||
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KwarK
United States42489 Posts
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0x64
Finland4544 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria3849 Posts
Very "not-black-and-white" from our "not-pro-Russia-guy". | ||
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zeo
Serbia6282 Posts
@kwark - dont know what you are trying to get at with the Marshal plan angle. The US didnt build roads in Ukraine. It funded anti-government institutions and programs in a country where 5 billion dollars can pay for a lot @0x64 - thats a cringe way of building a strawman, does this way of talking work for you in real life? @Magic - the guy 'done with me' seems to have a new fixation with my posts after his Hitler episodes. I look to spend as much time on Russia as you spend on Ukraine, balance in all things is key. I really hope you will start talking more about the problems inside Ukraine so I dont have to be the one to do it and I can shift focus to Russia. All in all at least Kwark tried to shift the goalposts and add something, the only non-shitpost of the three | ||
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0x64
Finland4544 Posts
On August 04 2023 16:16 zeo wrote: So an analysis of the first three posted answers: @kwark - dont know what you are trying to get at with the Marshal plan angle. The US didnt build roads in Ukraine. It funded anti-government institutions and programs in a country where 5 billion dollars can pay for a lot @0x64 - thats a cringe way of building a strawman, does this way of talking work for you in real life? @Magic - the guy 'done with me' seems to have a new fixation with my posts after his Hitler episodes. I look to spend as much time on Russia as you spend on Ukraine, balance in all things is key. I really hope you will start talking more about the problems inside Ukraine so I dont have to be the one to do it and I can shift focus to Russia. All in all at least Kwark tried to shift the goalposts and add something, the only non-shitpost of the three Are you taking time from your family to argue on the internet about how good is the russian war? | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3849 Posts
On August 04 2023 16:16 zeo wrote: So an analysis of the first three posted answers: @kwark - dont know what you are trying to get at with the Marshal plan angle. The US didnt build roads in Ukraine. It funded anti-government institutions and programs in a country where 5 billion dollars can pay for a lot @0x64 - thats a cringe way of building a strawman, does this way of talking work for you in real life? @Magic - the guy 'done with me' seems to have a new fixation with my posts after his Hitler episodes. I look to spend as much time on Russia as you spend on Ukraine, balance in all things is key. I really hope you will start talking more about the problems inside Ukraine so I dont have to be the one to do it and I can shift focus to Russia. All in all at least Kwark tried to shift the goalposts and add something, the only non-shitpost of the three I am done with you. But you're not alone here, and my policy is to not talk to you anymore. Doesn't mean I can't reveal how much of a hypocrite you are. | ||
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0x64
Finland4544 Posts
On August 04 2023 16:16 zeo wrote: So an analysis of the first three posted answers: @kwark - dont know what you are trying to get at with the Marshal plan angle. The US didnt build roads in Ukraine. It funded anti-government institutions and programs in a country where 5 billion dollars can pay for a lot @0x64 - thats a cringe way of building a strawman, does this way of talking work for you in real life? @Magic - the guy 'done with me' seems to have a new fixation with my posts after his Hitler episodes. I look to spend as much time on Russia as you spend on Ukraine, balance in all things is key. I really hope you will start talking more about the problems inside Ukraine so I dont have to be the one to do it and I can shift focus to Russia. All in all at least Kwark tried to shift the goalposts and add something, the only non-shitpost of the three I didn't feel I needed to add anything to the fantastic post of Kwark. We do not need to individually repeat the same things. | ||
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