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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On June 05 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:22 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to remind people that Ardias is still in Russia. I (and presumably others as well) urged him to leave long ago. Would you argue that he's ok with the prospect of killing Ukrainians because he prefers taking the risk of getting drafted than leaving his family? Or would you somehow assume that he has an easy out if he gets drafted? Because people like KwarK are making this all sound really easy and obvious. I want to know how easy and obvious this all really is in reality. Please tell me how you would act in Ardias' shoes so everyone can see how morally superior you are to him. Because that's what you're thinking, right? That you're above Ardias, right? That you're better than him? I'm certainly better than you, but you probably still put on your grandfather's uniform from time to time. Germans and "not having any choice" is an iconic combo. Ardias isn't fighting and I can't speak for what he would do if he was asked to participate in a genocidal war. Let's go back to a simple example though. Two men in two different rooms are both ordered at gunpoint to kill a child. The first person, we'll call him Magic Powers, chooses kills the child to save his sorry worthless skin. The second person, we'll call him KwarK, chooses death and is killed. Which of them had a choice?
Not sure what is more deserving of a warning, insinuating that Magic Powers is larping as a nazi, or that an Austrian counts as German.
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United States43646 Posts
On June 05 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:
Kwark do you consider yourself a supporter of child slave labour? Adult slave labour? How about the sex trade? Genocide?
Between the clothing, electronics, components of other products you use, much of the stuff your company procures, all likely very directly support the people doing it.
At some point there is a difference between the people working logistics and the person doing the rape and murder. As horrible as it is, it is just true. Our support as NAs of my first paragraph they do not even need to punish us, we just want to look cooler, have life easier or pay less and we’re basically all at least complicit.
Heck much of the metals used on what ever device we are using very well came from some slave labour mine where people die and children toil.
Yeah, we're all somewhat complicit in global capitalism and its crimes. It's not quite as egregious as literally putting on a uniform and joining in the effort but yes, we participate passively. To me that's much like the Russian civilians who go to work each day and pay taxes and say "obviously it's shitty that the army is killing children but what can I, as one person, do about it".
If I could rebuild the world as I saw fit I wouldn't keep child labour but I can't. I give charitably and I work in a pretty ethical industry but I'm not a moral maximalist and one day I may be judged for my sins.
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United States43646 Posts
On June 05 2023 06:29 Artesimo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:22 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to remind people that Ardias is still in Russia. I (and presumably others as well) urged him to leave long ago. Would you argue that he's ok with the prospect of killing Ukrainians because he prefers taking the risk of getting drafted than leaving his family? Or would you somehow assume that he has an easy out if he gets drafted? Because people like KwarK are making this all sound really easy and obvious. I want to know how easy and obvious this all really is in reality. Please tell me how you would act in Ardias' shoes so everyone can see how morally superior you are to him. Because that's what you're thinking, right? That you're above Ardias, right? That you're better than him? I'm certainly better than you, but you probably still put on your grandfather's uniform from time to time. Germans and "not having any choice" is an iconic combo. Ardias isn't fighting and I can't speak for what he would do if he was asked to participate in a genocidal war. Let's go back to a simple example though. Two men in two different rooms are both ordered at gunpoint to kill a child. The first person, we'll call him Magic Powers, chooses kills the child to save his sorry worthless skin. The second person, we'll call him KwarK, chooses death and is killed. Which of them had a choice? Not sure what is more deserving of a warning, insinuating that Magic Powers is larping as a nazi, or that an Austrian counts as German.
Austrians and Germans are one people for what it's worth. The historical reasons that kept them out of German unification are basically arbitrary.
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On June 05 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:22 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to remind people that Ardias is still in Russia. I (and presumably others as well) urged him to leave long ago. Would you argue that he's ok with the prospect of killing Ukrainians because he prefers taking the risk of getting drafted than leaving his family? Or would you somehow assume that he has an easy out if he gets drafted? Because people like KwarK are making this all sound really easy and obvious. I want to know how easy and obvious this all really is in reality. Please tell me how you would act in Ardias' shoes so everyone can see how morally superior you are to him. Because that's what you're thinking, right? That you're above Ardias, right? That you're better than him? I'm certainly better than you, but you probably still put on your grandfather's uniform from time to time. Germans and "not having any choice" is an iconic combo. Ardias isn't fighting and I can't speak for what he would do if he was asked to participate in a genocidal war. Let's go back to a simple example though. Two men in two different rooms are both ordered at gunpoint to kill a child. The first person, we'll call him Magic Powers, chooses kills the child to save his sorry worthless skin. The second person, we'll call him KwarK, chooses death and is killed. Which of them had a choice?
There we have it. You unironically telling me that you're "certainly better than me" just screams in bold letters that, yes indeed, you're in fact better than me. I'm proud of you, KwarK, for being so incredibly introspective, while essentially calling every single Russian soldier a murderer. When the world is so black and white as it is to you, it's certainly very easy feeling superior to others.
You keep bringing up child murder for some absurd reason. Do you know how many Russian soldiers have killed a child in this war? Tell us the number. Tell us what fraction of the Russian soldiers has killed a child.
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Norway28747 Posts
On June 05 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:I think the video was posted before, and since no blood or gore is shown I'll assume it's safe to be posted again. I'll put it in spoilers. + Show Spoiler +https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/zvjx1j/commander_beats_russian_mobilized_soldiers_for/ KwarK talks a strong game, but I don't believe a word of it. If he faces this type of punishment for his actions, he will quickly stop believing that he has a choice.
I mean, there are various ways of approaching this. I'm not really a fan of Sartreian radical freedom approaches, but rather, attempting to make a sort of, morality-calculation, where various factors come into play.
(attempt at explaining this more thoroughly inside the spoiler)
+ Show Spoiler +
factor 1: how good of a person am I? Different people will have different ways of weighing this, but to me, a central element of it is 'to what degree do I put my own betterment ahead of the betterment of others'. I believe almost everyone chooses their own betterment over the betterment of others if it's a 1:1 ratio, like if my choice is 'I starve to death' or 'a guy from Sudan starves to death' then I'll choose that the guy from Sudan starves to death and not feel like I'm a crappy human being for it. However if my choice is 'I go kinda hungry for two hours' and 'a guy from Sudan starves to death' (and I know there's a relation between those two) then I'll actually deal with that slight hunger. Likewise, if it's a matter of a) me being beaten severely or b) someone else who is not my mother wife or son experiencing the same beating, then I'll generally choose b. (maybe not if it's some kid, I guess, as I'd think I can handle it better?). Anyway, I think most people are on board with these basic principles, even if people might differ in terms of where they draw whatever lines.
factor 2: What is the method of coercing me?
So far, we're dealing with 'severe beating'. This is of course significant, and this would be something that could definitely manipulate my goodness. While my 'go hungry for two hours or a guy from Sudan starves to death' is a very easy choice in favor of going hungry for two hours, if you add 'be severely beaten to the point of possible brain damage' to the equation, it's very possible that I'd go 'you know what, 9 million people died from hunger in one year a couple years ago, this one guy isn't gonna make that big of a difference to that number, I vote for preserving my brain' and be less of a good person than I want to be. If the method of coercion is something smaller, something where I know it's only a period of temporary pain with no chance of permanent injury, then I'm much less likely to be influenced, and if the method of coercion is 'do it, or die a painful death', then there are very few things I wouldn't do. Add the life of my son to the equation, and they become hard to imagine in any sort of realistic scenario.
factor 3: What am I being forced to do?
I'll do plenty of slightly immoral acts if I'm threatened with a severe beating for not doing them. But like Kwark, I actually fully believe I would not be willing to kill a child even if I'm faced with that as punishment. Again, it probably wouldn't be impossible to make me kill a child, but it would take more than that. 'Do your duty as a conscripted soldier and try to kill the enemy soldier who is trying to kill you'? There, it's tougher. In this case, I think the threat of potential brain damage could potentially sway me, although I might be equally afraid of dying to enemy fire, so it might just be a case of what triggers my self-preservation instinct the strongest.
So it's like, you can basically give some points, say, on a 1-200 scale for how good of a person you are (higher number for better person), and then you give a 1-100 point value based on method of coercion (higher value for worse punishment), and then you give a 1-100 point value based on what you are forced to do (higher value for worse action). Then you start with how good you are, subtract method of coercion, and subtract what you are forced to do. If the number is below 0 you don't do it, above 0 you do. Say I'm a decent human being with a 98 goodness score and someone asks me to punch a homeless guy (-55), I don't do it. But then they coerce me with 'or else we'll cut off your finger' (-52 points) and then my score is 7 overall, so I punch the homeless guy.
But killing a kid is -98. I guess I should work some more on my scale here because the decent human being would be a coin flip to do this without any coercion, and that's clearly not what I meant. Maybe the first number has to be added and the goodness of person number has to be scaled down a bit. Sadly I have to go to sleep. Gonna try to work on this for my religionðics class, thanks for inspiring me. Oh well.
That's basically my long winded way of saying yes, this influences your choice, but it doesn't necessarily make it for you.
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On June 05 2023 06:27 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:25 Gorsameth wrote:On June 05 2023 06:16 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:10 Gorsameth wrote:On June 05 2023 06:05 Magic Powers wrote:
KwarK, you have a serious misunderstanding regarding the word "choice". This is not a me-problem, but a you-problem. You don't understand what a choice is or isn't.
No, these soldiers do not have a choice. They do not choose to get beaten. Someone else has chosen that for them. Therefore any action they take that compels them to not get beaten is also not a choice. It's a catch-22. Do you understand what a catch-22 is or do I need to explain that concept to you like I would have to explain it to a little child? They had a choice to flee the country, they had a choice to dodge the draft, the had a choice for desertion, they potentially had a choice to surrender to Ukraine. Really, did they? Then why are we seeing some of them surrender to Ukrainian troops, by walking across a few dusted fields that are getting bombed and are possibly mined? I don't follow your point here. If we see it happen then the choice exists no? (for those somewhere near the front lines). It might not be the smartest choice and hold considerable danger but the choices exists. Just because the choice not to flee/run/desert/surrender is earlier or safer doesn't absolve them of the consequences of their choice to stay with an army committing genocide. Why would Russian soldiers surrender to Ukraine if they had a choice? Someone with a choice wouldn't be there to begin with. The conclusion is therefore that they do not have a choice. I don't understand why this isn't really obvious to everyone here. Do people not understand the difference between an action and a choice? So not fleeing the country like many thousands of others wasn't a choice?
Responding to their draft letter was not a choice?
Life is nothing but a series of choices. You can not like the alternative and tell yourself the choice didn't exist but that is just lying to yourself.
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On June 05 2023 06:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 05:50 Magic Powers wrote:I think the video was posted before, and since no blood or gore is shown I'll assume it's safe to be posted again. I'll put it in spoilers. + Show Spoiler +https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/zvjx1j/commander_beats_russian_mobilized_soldiers_for/ KwarK talks a strong game, but I don't believe a word of it. If he faces this type of punishment for his actions, he will quickly stop believing that he has a choice. I mean, there are various ways of approaching this. I'm not really a fan of Sartreian radical freedom approaches, but rather, attempting to make a sort of, morality-calculation, where various factors come into play. (attempt at explaining this more thoroughly inside the spoiler) + Show Spoiler +
factor 1: how good of a person am I? Different people will have different ways of weighing this, but to me, a central element of it is 'to what degree do I put my own betterment ahead of the betterment of others'. I believe almost everyone chooses their own betterment over the betterment of others if it's a 1:1 ratio, like if my choice is 'I starve to death' or 'a guy from Sudan starves to death' then I'll choose that the guy from Sudan starves to death and not feel like I'm a crappy human being for it. However if my choice is 'I go kinda hungry for two hours' and 'a guy from Sudan starves to death' (and I know there's a relation between those two) then I'll actually deal with that slight hunger. Likewise, if it's a matter of a) me being beaten severely or b) someone else who is not my mother wife or son experiencing the same beating, then I'll generally choose b. (maybe not if it's some kid, I guess, as I'd think I can handle it better?). Anyway, I think most people are on board with these basic principles, even if people might differ in terms of where they draw whatever lines.
factor 2: What is the method of coercing me?
So far, we're dealing with 'severe beating'. This is of course significant, and this would be something that could definitely manipulate my goodness. While my 'go hungry for two hours or a guy from Sudan starves to death' is a very easy choice in favor of going hungry for two hours, if you add 'be severely beaten to the point of possible brain damage' to the equation, it's very possible that I'd go 'you know what, 9 million people died from hunger in one year a couple years ago, this one guy isn't gonna make that big of a difference to that number, I vote for preserving my brain' and be less of a good person than I want to be. If the method of coercion is something smaller, something where I know it's only a period of temporary pain with no chance of permanent injury, then I'm much less likely to be influenced, and if the method of coercion is 'do it, or die a painful death', then there are very few things I wouldn't do. Add the life of my son to the equation, and they become hard to imagine in any sort of realistic scenario.
factor 3: What am I being forced to do?
I'll do plenty of slightly immoral acts if I'm threatened with a severe beating for not doing them. But like Kwark, I actually fully believe I would not be willing to kill a child even if I'm faced with that as punishment. Again, it probably wouldn't be impossible to make me kill a child, but it would take more than that. 'Do your duty as a conscripted soldier and try to kill the enemy soldier who is trying to kill you'? There, it's tougher. In this case, I think the threat of potential brain damage could potentially sway me, although I might be equally afraid of dying to enemy fire, so it might just be a case of what triggers my self-preservation instinct the strongest.
So it's like, you can basically give some points, say, on a 1-200 scale for how good of a person you are (higher number for better person), and then you give a 1-100 point value based on method of coercion (higher value for worse punishment), and then you give a 1-100 point value based on what you are forced to do (higher value for worse action). Then you start with how good you are, subtract method of coercion, and subtract what you are forced to do. If the number is below 0 you don't do it, above 0 you do. Say I'm a decent human being with a 98 goodness score and someone asks me to punch a homeless guy (-55), I don't do it. But then they coerce me with 'or else we'll cut off your finger' (-52 points) and then my score is 7 overall, so I punch the homeless guy.
But killing a kid is -98. I guess I should work some more on my scale here because the decent human being would be a coin flip to do this without any coercion, and that's clearly not what I meant. Maybe the first number has to be added and the goodness of person number has to be scaled down a bit. Sadly I have to go to sleep. Gonna try to work on this for my religionðics class, thanks for inspiring me. Oh well.
That's basically my long winded way of saying yes, this influences your choice, but it doesn't necessarily make it for you.
I appreciate your long-form response, it wasn't expected or necessary but it's good food for thought and without too much deep thought I would likely agree.
That being said, KwarK is using the child killing example as a red herring. I'm calling him out on that, too. He knows full well that these cases are rare and are not the responsibility of the vast majority of Russian soldiers. He knows this and yet he's using it to try to win an absurd argument that he can only lose if he argues sincerely.
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United States43646 Posts
On June 05 2023 06:31 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:22 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to remind people that Ardias is still in Russia. I (and presumably others as well) urged him to leave long ago. Would you argue that he's ok with the prospect of killing Ukrainians because he prefers taking the risk of getting drafted than leaving his family? Or would you somehow assume that he has an easy out if he gets drafted? Because people like KwarK are making this all sound really easy and obvious. I want to know how easy and obvious this all really is in reality. Please tell me how you would act in Ardias' shoes so everyone can see how morally superior you are to him. Because that's what you're thinking, right? That you're above Ardias, right? That you're better than him? I'm certainly better than you, but you probably still put on your grandfather's uniform from time to time. Germans and "not having any choice" is an iconic combo. Ardias isn't fighting and I can't speak for what he would do if he was asked to participate in a genocidal war. Let's go back to a simple example though. Two men in two different rooms are both ordered at gunpoint to kill a child. The first person, we'll call him Magic Powers, chooses kills the child to save his sorry worthless skin. The second person, we'll call him KwarK, chooses death and is killed. Which of them had a choice? There we have it. You unironically telling me that you're "certainly better than me" just screams in bold letters that, yes indeed, you're in fact better than me. I'm proud of you, KwarK, for being so incredibly introspective, while essentially calling every single Russian soldier a murderer. When the world is so black and white as it is to you, it's certainly very easy feeling superior to others. You keep bringing up child murder for some absurd reason. Do you know how many Russian soldiers have killed a child in this war? Tell us the number. Tell us what fraction of the Russian soldiers has killed a child.
I'm better than you because you are spending your Sunday explaining to us your ethical framework that justifies active participation in genocide.
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I'm with Kwark on this, if we started missile strikes on Moldovan cities tomorrow I'm liquidating all my shit ASAP under market value, leaving the country and not even consider looking back without a regime change.
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On June 05 2023 06:29 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:
Kwark do you consider yourself a supporter of child slave labour? Adult slave labour? How about the sex trade? Genocide?
Between the clothing, electronics, components of other products you use, much of the stuff your company procures, all likely very directly support the people doing it.
At some point there is a difference between the people working logistics and the person doing the rape and murder. As horrible as it is, it is just true. Our support as NAs of my first paragraph they do not even need to punish us, we just want to look cooler, have life easier or pay less and we’re basically all at least complicit.
Heck much of the metals used on what ever device we are using very well came from some slave labour mine where people die and children toil. Yeah, we're all somewhat complicit in global capitalism and its crimes. It's not quite as egregious as literally putting on a uniform and joining in the effort but yes, we participate passively. To me that's much like the Russian civilians who go to work each day and pay taxes and say "obviously it's shitty that the army is killing children but what can I, as one person, do about it". If I could rebuild the world as I saw fit I wouldn't keep child labour but I can't. I give charitably and I work in a pretty ethical industry but I'm not a moral maximalist and one day I may be judged for my sins.
The role is more active than you give it credit for. I mean we're to believe that voters in a democracy have significantly more influence (and bear more responsibility) for the actions of their government/volunteer military than those living under an authoritarian despot/madman, if nothing else.
Probably closer to wearing a uniform (the uniform is less formal and more accoutrement based) but working logistics. So the bullets for the children are requisitioned (this has historically been literally true, like in Vietnam) through the people in the west showing up to work and paying taxes while lamenting it.
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On June 05 2023 06:37 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:27 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:25 Gorsameth wrote:On June 05 2023 06:16 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:10 Gorsameth wrote:On June 05 2023 06:05 Magic Powers wrote:
KwarK, you have a serious misunderstanding regarding the word "choice". This is not a me-problem, but a you-problem. You don't understand what a choice is or isn't.
No, these soldiers do not have a choice. They do not choose to get beaten. Someone else has chosen that for them. Therefore any action they take that compels them to not get beaten is also not a choice. It's a catch-22. Do you understand what a catch-22 is or do I need to explain that concept to you like I would have to explain it to a little child? They had a choice to flee the country, they had a choice to dodge the draft, the had a choice for desertion, they potentially had a choice to surrender to Ukraine. Really, did they? Then why are we seeing some of them surrender to Ukrainian troops, by walking across a few dusted fields that are getting bombed and are possibly mined? I don't follow your point here. If we see it happen then the choice exists no? (for those somewhere near the front lines). It might not be the smartest choice and hold considerable danger but the choices exists. Just because the choice not to flee/run/desert/surrender is earlier or safer doesn't absolve them of the consequences of their choice to stay with an army committing genocide. Why would Russian soldiers surrender to Ukraine if they had a choice? Someone with a choice wouldn't be there to begin with. The conclusion is therefore that they do not have a choice. I don't understand why this isn't really obvious to everyone here. Do people not understand the difference between an action and a choice? So not fleeing the country like many thousands of others wasn't a choice? Responding to their draft letter was not a choice? Life is nothing but a series of choices. You can not like the alternative and tell yourself the choice didn't exist but that is just lying to yourself.
How can we know that every drafted Russian had a choice to escape Russia? From what I've gathered, it was very difficult and expensive to escape. It took at least a few days and sleepless nights, and more importantly it cost thousands, some even tens of thousands of dollars. A lot of Russians don't have this kind of money. It also meant leaving behind some or all of your family and friends, your career, your everything. Whatever it was you built for yourself and whatever emotional connection you had to people, some of them needing care. Your sick mother, suddenly alone. Your employees, suddenly unemployed. Your colleagues, suddenly without your help. All gone in a flash. IF you could even financially afford it and had the luck of not getting turned away at the border.
If you think choices in life are as simple as just getting up and leaving your place, you're lying to yourself.
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On June 05 2023 06:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:31 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:22 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to remind people that Ardias is still in Russia. I (and presumably others as well) urged him to leave long ago. Would you argue that he's ok with the prospect of killing Ukrainians because he prefers taking the risk of getting drafted than leaving his family? Or would you somehow assume that he has an easy out if he gets drafted? Because people like KwarK are making this all sound really easy and obvious. I want to know how easy and obvious this all really is in reality. Please tell me how you would act in Ardias' shoes so everyone can see how morally superior you are to him. Because that's what you're thinking, right? That you're above Ardias, right? That you're better than him? I'm certainly better than you, but you probably still put on your grandfather's uniform from time to time. Germans and "not having any choice" is an iconic combo. Ardias isn't fighting and I can't speak for what he would do if he was asked to participate in a genocidal war. Let's go back to a simple example though. Two men in two different rooms are both ordered at gunpoint to kill a child. The first person, we'll call him Magic Powers, chooses kills the child to save his sorry worthless skin. The second person, we'll call him KwarK, chooses death and is killed. Which of them had a choice? There we have it. You unironically telling me that you're "certainly better than me" just screams in bold letters that, yes indeed, you're in fact better than me. I'm proud of you, KwarK, for being so incredibly introspective, while essentially calling every single Russian soldier a murderer. When the world is so black and white as it is to you, it's certainly very easy feeling superior to others. You keep bringing up child murder for some absurd reason. Do you know how many Russian soldiers have killed a child in this war? Tell us the number. Tell us what fraction of the Russian soldiers has killed a child. I'm better than you because you are spending your Sunday explaining to us your ethical framework that justifies active participation in genocide.
That's a good one, I'll keep it in mind for when we meet and I'll ask you to repeat your words straight to my face without feeling the slightest embarrassment over it.
According to you, every Russian soldier is an active participant in genocide. I'll keep that in mind.
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On June 05 2023 06:54 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:37 Gorsameth wrote:On June 05 2023 06:27 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:25 Gorsameth wrote:On June 05 2023 06:16 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:10 Gorsameth wrote:On June 05 2023 06:05 Magic Powers wrote:
KwarK, you have a serious misunderstanding regarding the word "choice". This is not a me-problem, but a you-problem. You don't understand what a choice is or isn't.
No, these soldiers do not have a choice. They do not choose to get beaten. Someone else has chosen that for them. Therefore any action they take that compels them to not get beaten is also not a choice. It's a catch-22. Do you understand what a catch-22 is or do I need to explain that concept to you like I would have to explain it to a little child? They had a choice to flee the country, they had a choice to dodge the draft, the had a choice for desertion, they potentially had a choice to surrender to Ukraine. Really, did they? Then why are we seeing some of them surrender to Ukrainian troops, by walking across a few dusted fields that are getting bombed and are possibly mined? I don't follow your point here. If we see it happen then the choice exists no? (for those somewhere near the front lines). It might not be the smartest choice and hold considerable danger but the choices exists. Just because the choice not to flee/run/desert/surrender is earlier or safer doesn't absolve them of the consequences of their choice to stay with an army committing genocide. Why would Russian soldiers surrender to Ukraine if they had a choice? Someone with a choice wouldn't be there to begin with. The conclusion is therefore that they do not have a choice. I don't understand why this isn't really obvious to everyone here. Do people not understand the difference between an action and a choice? So not fleeing the country like many thousands of others wasn't a choice? Responding to their draft letter was not a choice? Life is nothing but a series of choices. You can not like the alternative and tell yourself the choice didn't exist but that is just lying to yourself. How can we know that every drafted Russian had a choice to escape Russia? From what I've gathered, it was very difficult and expensive to escape. It took at least a few days and sleepless nights, and more importantly it cost thousands, some even tens of thousands of dollars. A lot of Russians don't have this kind of money. It also meant leaving behind some or all of your family and friends, your career, your everything. Whatever it was you built for yourself and whatever emotional connection you had to people, some of them needing care. Your sick mother, suddenly alone. Your employees, suddenly unemployed. Your colleagues, suddenly without your help. All gone in a flash. IF you could even financially afford it and had the luck of not getting turned away at the border. If you think choices in life are as simple as just getting up and leaving your place, you're lying to yourself. Again your talking about easy. It doesn't have to be easy to be a choice.
The easy path is to do nothing, but taking the easy path doesn't absolve you of judgement.
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United States43646 Posts
On June 05 2023 06:57 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:44 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:31 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:22 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to remind people that Ardias is still in Russia. I (and presumably others as well) urged him to leave long ago. Would you argue that he's ok with the prospect of killing Ukrainians because he prefers taking the risk of getting drafted than leaving his family? Or would you somehow assume that he has an easy out if he gets drafted? Because people like KwarK are making this all sound really easy and obvious. I want to know how easy and obvious this all really is in reality. Please tell me how you would act in Ardias' shoes so everyone can see how morally superior you are to him. Because that's what you're thinking, right? That you're above Ardias, right? That you're better than him? I'm certainly better than you, but you probably still put on your grandfather's uniform from time to time. Germans and "not having any choice" is an iconic combo. Ardias isn't fighting and I can't speak for what he would do if he was asked to participate in a genocidal war. Let's go back to a simple example though. Two men in two different rooms are both ordered at gunpoint to kill a child. The first person, we'll call him Magic Powers, chooses kills the child to save his sorry worthless skin. The second person, we'll call him KwarK, chooses death and is killed. Which of them had a choice? There we have it. You unironically telling me that you're "certainly better than me" just screams in bold letters that, yes indeed, you're in fact better than me. I'm proud of you, KwarK, for being so incredibly introspective, while essentially calling every single Russian soldier a murderer. When the world is so black and white as it is to you, it's certainly very easy feeling superior to others. You keep bringing up child murder for some absurd reason. Do you know how many Russian soldiers have killed a child in this war? Tell us the number. Tell us what fraction of the Russian soldiers has killed a child. I'm better than you because you are spending your Sunday explaining to us your ethical framework that justifies active participation in genocide. That's a good one, I'll keep it in mind for when we meet and I'll ask you to repeat your words straight to my face without feeling the slightest embarrassment over it. According to you, every Russian soldier is an active participant in genocide. I'll keep that in mind.
I really am beginning to suspect you kept your grandfather's uniform and this is your way of convincing yourself that he wasn't such a bad man. For some reason condemning the soldiers fighting in a genocidal war is a red line for you.
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United States43646 Posts
On June 05 2023 07:01 Magic Powers wrote:The following is a list of post-WW2 trials for war crimes committed by Axis personnel. Does anyone notice the significant number of people not found guilty? How come, if they were all active participants in genocide? Did the courts not have a moral backbone or was there perhaps a different reason? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Axis_personnel_indicted_for_war_crimes
The courts didn't have a moral backbone. It is interesting though that your argument has now become "if you're judging the Russian soldiers for genocide then why not also the Wehrmacht who also did it".
Full mask off phase. You're confirming that you agree that they're the same and think both deserve the same absolution for their sins.
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On June 05 2023 06:59 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:57 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:44 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:31 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:22 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to remind people that Ardias is still in Russia. I (and presumably others as well) urged him to leave long ago. Would you argue that he's ok with the prospect of killing Ukrainians because he prefers taking the risk of getting drafted than leaving his family? Or would you somehow assume that he has an easy out if he gets drafted? Because people like KwarK are making this all sound really easy and obvious. I want to know how easy and obvious this all really is in reality. Please tell me how you would act in Ardias' shoes so everyone can see how morally superior you are to him. Because that's what you're thinking, right? That you're above Ardias, right? That you're better than him? I'm certainly better than you, but you probably still put on your grandfather's uniform from time to time. Germans and "not having any choice" is an iconic combo. Ardias isn't fighting and I can't speak for what he would do if he was asked to participate in a genocidal war. Let's go back to a simple example though. Two men in two different rooms are both ordered at gunpoint to kill a child. The first person, we'll call him Magic Powers, chooses kills the child to save his sorry worthless skin. The second person, we'll call him KwarK, chooses death and is killed. Which of them had a choice? There we have it. You unironically telling me that you're "certainly better than me" just screams in bold letters that, yes indeed, you're in fact better than me. I'm proud of you, KwarK, for being so incredibly introspective, while essentially calling every single Russian soldier a murderer. When the world is so black and white as it is to you, it's certainly very easy feeling superior to others. You keep bringing up child murder for some absurd reason. Do you know how many Russian soldiers have killed a child in this war? Tell us the number. Tell us what fraction of the Russian soldiers has killed a child. I'm better than you because you are spending your Sunday explaining to us your ethical framework that justifies active participation in genocide. That's a good one, I'll keep it in mind for when we meet and I'll ask you to repeat your words straight to my face without feeling the slightest embarrassment over it. According to you, every Russian soldier is an active participant in genocide. I'll keep that in mind. I really am beginning to suspect you kept your grandfather's uniform and this is your way of convincing yourself that he wasn't such a bad man. For some reason condemning the soldiers fighting in a genocidal war is a red line for you.
The one grandfather who was willing to talk to me about WW2 died soon after I met him the one and only time in my life.
The other one I loved dearly, but he strictly refused to speak about anything regarding the war he had to fight in.
Stick your suspicions elsewhere.
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United States43646 Posts
On June 05 2023 07:02 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:59 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:57 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:44 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:31 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:22 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to remind people that Ardias is still in Russia. I (and presumably others as well) urged him to leave long ago. Would you argue that he's ok with the prospect of killing Ukrainians because he prefers taking the risk of getting drafted than leaving his family? Or would you somehow assume that he has an easy out if he gets drafted? Because people like KwarK are making this all sound really easy and obvious. I want to know how easy and obvious this all really is in reality. Please tell me how you would act in Ardias' shoes so everyone can see how morally superior you are to him. Because that's what you're thinking, right? That you're above Ardias, right? That you're better than him? I'm certainly better than you, but you probably still put on your grandfather's uniform from time to time. Germans and "not having any choice" is an iconic combo. Ardias isn't fighting and I can't speak for what he would do if he was asked to participate in a genocidal war. Let's go back to a simple example though. Two men in two different rooms are both ordered at gunpoint to kill a child. The first person, we'll call him Magic Powers, chooses kills the child to save his sorry worthless skin. The second person, we'll call him KwarK, chooses death and is killed. Which of them had a choice? There we have it. You unironically telling me that you're "certainly better than me" just screams in bold letters that, yes indeed, you're in fact better than me. I'm proud of you, KwarK, for being so incredibly introspective, while essentially calling every single Russian soldier a murderer. When the world is so black and white as it is to you, it's certainly very easy feeling superior to others. You keep bringing up child murder for some absurd reason. Do you know how many Russian soldiers have killed a child in this war? Tell us the number. Tell us what fraction of the Russian soldiers has killed a child. I'm better than you because you are spending your Sunday explaining to us your ethical framework that justifies active participation in genocide. That's a good one, I'll keep it in mind for when we meet and I'll ask you to repeat your words straight to my face without feeling the slightest embarrassment over it. According to you, every Russian soldier is an active participant in genocide. I'll keep that in mind. I really am beginning to suspect you kept your grandfather's uniform and this is your way of convincing yourself that he wasn't such a bad man. For some reason condemning the soldiers fighting in a genocidal war is a red line for you. The one grandfather who was willing to talk to me about WW2 died soon after I met him the one and only time in my life. The other one I loved dearly, but he strictly refused to speak about anything regarding the war he had to fight in. Stick your suspicions elsewhere.
Lol. So my suspicion was right, he did wear the uniform.
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On June 05 2023 07:01 KwarK wrote:The courts didn't have a moral backbone. It is interesting though that your argument has now become "if you're judging the Russian soldiers for genocide then why not also the Wehrmacht who also did it". Full mask off phase. You're confirming that you agree that they're the same and think both deserve the same absolution for their sins.
"mask off"? Are you absolutely crazy? Is this kind of behavior from moderators allowed?
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On June 05 2023 06:57 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:44 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:31 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:22 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to remind people that Ardias is still in Russia. I (and presumably others as well) urged him to leave long ago. Would you argue that he's ok with the prospect of killing Ukrainians because he prefers taking the risk of getting drafted than leaving his family? Or would you somehow assume that he has an easy out if he gets drafted? Because people like KwarK are making this all sound really easy and obvious. I want to know how easy and obvious this all really is in reality. Please tell me how you would act in Ardias' shoes so everyone can see how morally superior you are to him. Because that's what you're thinking, right? That you're above Ardias, right? That you're better than him? I'm certainly better than you, but you probably still put on your grandfather's uniform from time to time. Germans and "not having any choice" is an iconic combo. Ardias isn't fighting and I can't speak for what he would do if he was asked to participate in a genocidal war. Let's go back to a simple example though. Two men in two different rooms are both ordered at gunpoint to kill a child. The first person, we'll call him Magic Powers, chooses kills the child to save his sorry worthless skin. The second person, we'll call him KwarK, chooses death and is killed. Which of them had a choice? There we have it. You unironically telling me that you're "certainly better than me" just screams in bold letters that, yes indeed, you're in fact better than me. I'm proud of you, KwarK, for being so incredibly introspective, while essentially calling every single Russian soldier a murderer. When the world is so black and white as it is to you, it's certainly very easy feeling superior to others. You keep bringing up child murder for some absurd reason. Do you know how many Russian soldiers have killed a child in this war? Tell us the number. Tell us what fraction of the Russian soldiers has killed a child. I'm better than you because you are spending your Sunday explaining to us your ethical framework that justifies active participation in genocide. That's a good one, I'll keep it in mind for when we meet and I'll ask you to repeat your words straight to my face without feeling the slightest embarrassment over it. According to you, every Russian soldier is an active participant in genocide. I'll keep that in mind. If they are in Ukraine? A passive participant at best yes. Your there occupying the country so others can do the genocide.
Without all those soldiers who "are just doing their job and didn't have a choice" there would be no Russian army left in Ukraine.
I'm not saying they should all be executed for war crimes. I get it if they say "What else could I do" but I would sure hope they feel shame for what they, passively, allowed and no I don't think they get to complain about being judged by public opinion for their contribution.
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EPT
