EPTAgain - to what degree Russian soldiers are morally responsible and to what degree we should be comfortable dehumanizing them is an interesting and relevant tangent, but mp's ancestral sins is not.
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 451
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28786 Posts
Again - to what degree Russian soldiers are morally responsible and to what degree we should be comfortable dehumanizing them is an interesting and relevant tangent, but mp's ancestral sins is not. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2766 Posts
I mean I can read the thread but wow. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On June 05 2023 08:07 KwarK wrote: Nah, he argued that the lack of convictions of the Wehrmacht meant that their hands were largely clean and therefore the Russian army, which he argued was no less blameless than the Wehrmacht, were also in the clear. No, I didn't argue that. You become (or always were) incapable of reading people's comments correctly when you turn into an over-emotional child and accuse people of being Nazi sympathizers in a blatantly dishonest and even racist fashion. The important quotes to read are the following: >I read a number of the cases >They were in fact innocent >Maybe a handful of them escaped justice >The majority of those who were found innocent were in fact innocent >A clear majority though was found guilty, also entirely correctly You literally misrepresented what I wrote and twisted it into the opposite. You were hell-bent on labelling me as a Nazi sympathizer, and you took the racist route of suspecting me based on my Austrian descent. You saw red because you got serious pushback against your preference for mock trials and that made you throw wild accusations like the over-emotional child that you are. This should not be considered acceptable behavior by a mod. | ||
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Artesimo
Germany571 Posts
On June 05 2023 14:46 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: How did you guys go from discussing the sensible topic of rising russophobia affecting anti war Russians in the west to moral relativism of the wehrmacht in WWII in one night? I mean I can read the thread but wow. The short summary is that Kwark barged into a topic with disregard for context and after completely missing the point there he went on to another target in what I can only assume is knowingly misrepresenting what Magic Powers wrote. Unsurprisingly, engaging with someone that fires off gotchas in between his ladder games while clearly not arguing in good faith proved to be not the most productive use of Magic Powers time and he ended up being called a nazi/larping as a nazi multiple times as a reward. Don't let the moderator tag fool you, KwarK did pretty much nothing but straight up lie throughout that exchange and blatantly bait Magic Powers. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11805 Posts
On June 05 2023 15:29 Magic Powers wrote: No, I didn't argue that. You become (or always were) incapable of reading people's comments correctly when you turn into an over-emotional child and accuse people of being Nazi sympathizers in a blatantly dishonest and even racist fashion. The important quotes to read are the following: >I read a number of the cases >They were in fact innocent >Maybe a handful of them escaped justice >The majority of those who were found innocent were in fact innocent >A clear majority though was found guilty, also entirely correctly You literally misrepresented what I wrote and twisted it into the opposite. You were hell-bent on labelling me as a Nazi sympathizer, and you took the racist route of suspecting me based on my Austrian descent. You saw red because you got serious pushback against your preference for mock trials and that made you throw wild accusations like the over-emotional child that you are. This should not be considered acceptable behavior by a mod. If it helps you, i find your point to be very clear and concise. KwarKs constant unfounded accusations of you or your grandparents being Nazis doesn't help either. It also probably hits the wrong generation. My grandparents were all far too young to participate in WW2, as is probably the case for most people on this forum. They still have stories and often don't really like talking about it, because as it turns out, war can be pretty traumatic for everyone involved, including children. | ||
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0x64
Finland4613 Posts
I think important things are happening right now. We have short attention span and until a counteroffensive starts, it's hard to stay focused. Bahmut was the main location of our attention for months. It is one thing to defend at all cost but entirely another to send your troop to recapture. That's the reason this is not ongoing. (Also the leak, which basically means that any failure in the counteroffensive would be attributed to the leak) The faster the territory is recaptured, the less damage happens to the places. Strategically, having oligarchs targeted in Moscow suburbs is a genius move. They are an easy scapegoat even if some didn't want the war, the lower class will see them as profiting from the system. Also the way the propaganda works, they cannot call it a war, they cannot be attacked by a military, only by terrorists. I wonder if now, the air defense will be focused to defend those "rich people's home" and if so, then I the next strike touches let's say all gaz station in popular area and it is discovered that this was only possible because the air defense was moved to protect the rich... | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
Russia is claiming to have held off a Ukrainian offensive. Russia claims, "Ukraine had lost 250 troops as well as 16 tanks". These claims have not been independently verified. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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Ardias
Russian Federation618 Posts
On June 05 2023 19:03 0x64 wrote: Could we rise back above the Godwin point? I think important things are happening right now. We have short attention span and until a counteroffensive starts, it's hard to stay focused. Bahmut was the main location of our attention for months. It is one thing to defend at all cost but entirely another to send your troop to recapture. That's the reason this is not ongoing. (Also the leak, which basically means that any failure in the counteroffensive would be attributed to the leak) The faster the territory is recaptured, the less damage happens to the places. Strategically, having oligarchs targeted in Moscow suburbs is a genius move. They are an easy scapegoat even if some didn't want the war, the lower class will see them as profiting from the system. Also the way the propaganda works, they cannot call it a war, they cannot be attacked by a military, only by terrorists. I wonder if now, the air defense will be focused to defend those "rich people's home" and if so, then I the next strike touches let's say all gaz station in popular area and it is discovered that this was only possible because the air defense was moved to protect the rich... Attention span is a good thing to be mentioned, I think it's no coincidence that Ukraine sent their ethnic Russian units over the border within days after the fall of Bakhmut. Now attention is diverted to the fact that there is war in old Russian territories and Rublevka being bombed. But there are some other developments that are less noticable because of that. 1) Kiev missile strikes and western air defence. Ukraine is doing their best to not show actual results, but it seems that a) Ukraine is rapidly depleting their missile stocks (in the video posted here coiple of weeks ago we saw Ukraine firing 1,5 months of Patriot missile production in 1 minute) b) Russia seems now to deliberatly hunt western AA systems c) they seem to succed on at least few occasions 2) Russians seem to sucessfully hit few large supply depots, most notably - in Khmelnitsky. This could also contribute to delay in any UA offensive operations. 3) Unclear what exactly happened to Zaluzhniy. He disappeared for quite a while from media after 8th May, Ukraine for a while was answering on claims of his death/ctitical condition with old photos and non-proof claims of him being well, and when he finally appeared, it was for a very short video where he was just sitting and speaking very briefly, just for a few seconds. If he indeed was wounded, it could also affect overall situation. 4) Ukraine is pouncing on different parts of the front, most notably - yesterday, with rather large offensive attempt on Donetsk-Zaporozhie regions border. Russian UAV video from the area showed 1 Ukrainian tank and 8-9 APC and MRAPs destroyed/damaged/abandoned. So most likely actual advancing force was much larger, up to at least couple of batallions, though results are unclear for now as the area is still contested. As for air defence over oligarchs - Rublevka area no doubt has some means anyway, as there are residencies of Russian president and prime minister in the area. Though it's impossible to cover all objects of importance with proper coverage anyway, since there are too many of them. So I don't think that any attack would trigger a reaction "but they are protecting oligarchs instead of us" from common people. Though nobody would cry a lot about thdm, that's for sure. | ||
KwarK
United States43927 Posts
On June 05 2023 15:29 Magic Powers wrote: No, I didn't argue that. You become (or always were) incapable of reading people's comments correctly when you turn into an over-emotional child and accuse people of being Nazi sympathizers in a blatantly dishonest and even racist fashion. The important quotes to read are the following: >I read a number of the cases >They were in fact innocent >Maybe a handful of them escaped justice >The majority of those who were found innocent were in fact innocent >A clear majority though was found guilty, also entirely correctly You literally misrepresented what I wrote and twisted it into the opposite. You were hell-bent on labelling me as a Nazi sympathizer, and you took the racist route of suspecting me based on my Austrian descent. You saw red because you got serious pushback against your preference for mock trials and that made you throw wild accusations like the over-emotional child that you are. This should not be considered acceptable behavior by a mod. The war crimes of the Wehrmacht were not perpetrated by a small number of war criminals who were all found guilty. The idea that it was limited to a small number of evil people who were found guilty and that the rest were innocent is despicable and ahistorical. The lack of convictions was political. Ultimately though we did reach an agreement that the Russian army is just as innocent as the Wehrmacht. We just disagreed about what that meant. | ||
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KwarK
United States43927 Posts
On June 05 2023 17:28 Simberto wrote: If it helps you, i find your point to be very clear and concise. KwarKs constant unfounded accusations of you or your grandparents being Nazis doesn't help either. It also probably hits the wrong generation. My grandparents were all far too young to participate in WW2, as is probably the case for most people on this forum. They still have stories and often don't really like talking about it, because as it turns out, war can be pretty traumatic for everyone involved, including children. Did you genuinely understand his point that Russian soldiers literally couldn’t disobey orders as proven by a video of a group of Russian soldiers who disobeyed orders? That was a confusing point. Also did you miss the post where he clarified that he did have a grandfather in the Wehrmacht and that he loved him? I guessed at a link between his nationality and his insistence that soldiers fighting in genocidal invasions aren’t bad men and it turned out that the guess was spot on. It wasn’t unfounded, it was correct. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17731 Posts
On June 05 2023 17:28 Simberto wrote: It also probably hits the wrong generation. My grandparents were all far too young to participate in WW2, as is probably the case for most people on this forum. They still have stories and often don't really like talking about it, because as it turns out, war can be pretty traumatic for everyone involved, including children. My grandparents fought in WW2, grandpa was a pilot, got captured and put in a camp (he survived). Grandma survived both the Nazis and the Russian "liberation" afterwards (and she always claimed that Russians were 100x worse than the Nazi occupation, which is saying a lot seeing how there's a concentration camp in my city). | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28786 Posts
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KwarK
United States43927 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9535 Posts
On June 05 2023 07:03 Magic Powers wrote: "mask off"? Are you absolutely crazy? Is this kind of behavior from moderators allowed? I won't warn Kwark because I don't want to start any mod drama (even though he totally deserves it here), but I'd just like to say that I would rather blow my brains out than get into this kind of discussion with him. And I say this without passing judgement on who's right or wrong here, but purely from a practical point of view. He's pretty much just trolling you at this point, and my suggestion would be to just ignore him. It's not worth it. As someone who comes to this thread to read updates about the war and see the perspective of people with vastly different experiences, it sucks that I have to wade through all this bullshit to make sure I don't miss any good posts (e.g. Drone's posts!). Please do better guys! Don't start every post with accusatory tone or snarky voice, and try to really understand what the other person is saying before responding; or at least ask for clarifications. Thank you! | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Yevgeny Prigozhin’s Wagner group of mercenaries has captured a Russian commander, as the notorious leader further escalates his feud with the regular army. In a video posted on Prigozhin’s social media channels, Lt Col Roman Venevitin, the commander of Russia’s 72nd Brigade, tells an interrogator that, while drunk, he had ordered his troops to fire on a Wagner convoy. In the footage, which resembled clips of prisoner of war soldiers, Venevitin said he acted because of his “personal dislike” for Wagner and then apologised. Last week, Prigozhin accused the Russian army of trying to blow up his men as they were pulling back from the eastern Ukrainian town of Bakhmut. The businessman, who is best known as “Putin’s chef” because of his catering contracts with the Kremlin, also claimed his men had discovered explosives, which he said were planted on purpose by defence ministry officials. The Russian ministry of defence has yet to comment on the footage. Two close family members of Venevitin confirmed to the Guardian that the man filmed in the video was their relative. Prigozhin, who has been arguing with top military officials for months, announced last week that his troops had largely pulled back from Bakhmut, most of which they captured last month after taking heavy casualties. The city is now believed to be controlled by the regular Russian forces. The latest incident again exposes the rifts in Moscow’s war machine. It also comes amid an increase in fighting along the frontlines in the Donetsk and Zaporizhzhia regions, leading to speculation that Kyiv has launched its much-anticipated counteroffensive. Some nationalist pro-war commentators said Wagner’s arrest of a senior Russian soldier attested to Prigozhin’s growing influence within the Kremlin. “Yevgeny Prigozhin, whose subordinates posted a video in which they mock a senior officer and an entire brigade commander … is allowed to do whatever he wants. He is considered as the highest caste!” Igor Strelkov, a retired Russian special operations officer and popular military blogger, wrote on his Telegram channel. Prigozhin’s influence grew as his troops gradually captured Bakhmut in recent months, delivering Moscow the first tangible military victory since last summer. Since the start of the war, Prigozhin has emerged as one of the most visible power players, frequently using social media to deliver scorching tirades against the defence ministry. His turbulent rise, however, has angered some elements of the Russian elite. Last week, Prigozhin received rare public criticism when two close allies of the Chechen leader, Ramzan Kadyrov, described him as a “hysterical blogger” who undermined Russia’s war effort. Source | ||
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Sent.
Poland9296 Posts
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KwarK
United States43927 Posts
On June 06 2023 00:38 Sent. wrote: I don't understand how Prigozhin is still allowed breathe. Kidnapping and beating up a Russian commander is already shocking, but making it public makes it extra bad because it makes the Russian military look like incompetent AND powerless idiots. Making your commanders look bad is a smart policy choice in a dictatorship that feels most afraid of a military strongman. You don’t want generals that are popular with the people because then, when the war goes badly, one of them might declare “I should be in charge, I’ll get us out of this mess”. The boyars are always presented as corrupt, incompetent idiots who are ruining the good name of the Tsar. It’s not a bug, it’s a feature. The peasants always complain “if only the Tsar knew what the boyars did, he would surely save us”. The day will come when Russia concedes that the war is lost and on that day the incompetence of certain generals will be extremely useful to Putin in explaining that defeat. | ||
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pmp10
3396 Posts
On June 05 2023 19:23 MJG wrote: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65806152 Russia is claiming to have held off a Ukrainian offensive. Russia claims, "Ukraine had lost 250 troops as well as 16 tanks". These claims have not been independently verified. Now that's interesting. If true, that implies there may not be any massive breakthrough attempts like at the start of the Kherson offensive. That would mean Ukraine is limiting risk and losses but giving-up on making a bigger strategic difference. | ||
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KwarK
United States43927 Posts
I think it’s reasonable to expect all of the same issues that Russia faced in each of its failed offensives to repeat. This will be a costly affair. If a breakthrough could be done easily it would have been done easily when the Russians were on the offensive. | ||
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