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Sent.
Poland9139 Posts
On May 12 2023 16:25 MJG wrote: BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65567143 Russia are, of course, denying that a counter-offensive has made any progress. Well, I would be surprised if they managed to make any serious progress in one day. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6278 Posts
On May 12 2023 16:25 MJG wrote: BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65567143 Russia are, of course, denying that a counter-offensive has made any progress. I'm curious. What's the logic behind using the term 'counter-offensive' if the front lines have been at a relative stalemate for months. The only active sector where land is changing hands would be Bahmut but you can hardly call it a large scale strategic offensive by the Russians. A counter offensive would indicate that there was a Russian offensive right before that but this 'imminent Ukrainian counter-offensive' has been a term used for this operation since last year. Does it really sound better as propaganda than offensive? If someone attacks you, then a year later you attack back... you can't really call that a counter-attack. Its just you attacking a year later. Only came to my mind a few days ago when an EU official mentioned something about giving counteroffensive weapons to Ukraine, that just sounds stupid if you are being honest with yourself. Wonder if anyone has gotten a hold of Zaluzhny yet to ask him how the offensive is going. | ||
Falling
Canada11328 Posts
I don't see why an operational pause during a time of year in which you could not really push ground suddenly makes it so that too much time has passed to call it a counter offensive. It's only been half a year or so since the main Russian offensives have wound down. Now this is offense that is meant to counter the previous Russian invasion. In other words, a counter-offensive. It's not like we are talking about South Korea suddenly attacking North Korea. Such a large gap could legitimately be called propaganda. But counter--offensive is pretty accurate here. | ||
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0x64
Finland4536 Posts
On May 12 2023 05:43 KwarK wrote: It also ignores that under Russian law they’ve already occupied a significant amount of Russia including the famously Russian city of Kherson. Yes but it is russian double truth. Everyone knows it is Ukraine, if it sticks no one will question it. If it doesn't everyone will say it was stupid. But it is a different russian truth that steps in if "true" russian territory is taken. The main thing that happens then is "you see, we told you they are evil nazi etc" then they can do their megamobilization etc. It is true that it might be the move that causes the collapse, but definitely not worth the risk of losing western support. The Western side wants an end by lack of will to fight from the Russian side, because it is the only way to not get a long term conflict festering in that part of the world. I feel this is the only way to teach Russians the meaning of Burke's quote "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing". | ||
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sertas
Sweden880 Posts
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2_2
Poland30 Posts
On May 12 2023 17:49 zeo wrote: I'm curious. What's the logic behind using the term 'counter-offensive' if the front lines have been at a relative stalemate for months. The only active sector where land is changing hands would be Bahmut but you can hardly call it a large scale strategic offensive by the Russians. A counter offensive would indicate that there was a Russian offensive right before that but this 'imminent Ukrainian counter-offensive' has been a term used for this operation since last year. Counter-offensive means it's an action of the defending army against the attacking army. Russia is invading, Ukraine is defending. That's what it means. Just because Russian offensive stalled for months, doesn't mean they're not the attacking party overall. It does sound better, but it's not propaganda, they're using it correctly. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/counteroffensive | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom857 Posts
On May 12 2023 16:26 Sent. wrote: Well, I would be surprised if they managed to make any serious progress in one day. As per the sources quoted in the article: "Another Russian war correspondent, Alexander Simonov, wrote on Telegram that Ukrainian forces had broken through near the village of Bohdanivka, close to Bakhmut, taking "several square kilometres" of ground." "The Institute for the Study of War also said Ukrainian forces had probably made gains of 2 km in Bakhmut." These figures are what the Russian leadership are denying. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6278 Posts
On May 12 2023 18:01 Falling wrote: If someone breaks into your home and assaults your and you hit them back, what is the logic behind calling it 'self defence'. Couldn't it be called assaulting back? I don't see why an operational pause during a time of year in which you could not really push ground suddenly makes it so that too much time has passed to call it a counter offensive. It's only been half a year or so since the main Russian offensives have wound down. Now this is offense that is meant to counter the previous Russian invasion. In other words, a counter-offensive. It's not like we are talking about South Korea suddenly attacking North Korea. Such a large gap could legitimately be called propaganda. But counter--offensive is pretty accurate here. If your neighbor breaks into your home and punches you, you for example call the police but the police can't do anything to them. After a few months you come up to your neighbor and punch them back in the face. You can't call that self defense or a counter attack, you can call it a justified attack though from your perspective. When you look at WW2, or the Korean/Vietnam War its very clear what an offensive and what a counteroffensive is. Now, Wikipedia as a source is not great, especially with terms that can be manipulated but here is the definition from its article: An offensive is a military operation that seeks through an aggressive projection of armed forces to occupy or recapture territory, gain an objective or achieve some larger strategic, operational, or tactical goal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_(military) So, the fact that territory is being recaptured does not make something a counteroffensive. Just type in 'counteroffensive Ukraine' in Google and search news articles, you see articles from December saying Ukraine is getting ready for a 'decisive winter counteroffensive', and then it became Spring, and talks now of Summer counteroffensive. The ship of Theseus comes to mind when talking about this. EDIT: Using a Starcraft analogy, both of you are Terrans sitting on 5 bases each. The enemy takes out one of your expansions, builds a CC there and then both of you turtle for 10min without anything happening. After 10min you attack that expo and take it back. Now, after 10min of turtling, would any commentator call what you are doing a counter-attack? An attack to take back that expo sure, but a counter-attack? | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
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sertas
Sweden880 Posts
On May 12 2023 19:41 Sbrubbles wrote: I also find it curious the constant referral to these ukranian actions as counter offensives. I mean, for a WW1 example, the battle of the Somme is referred to as the Somme offensive not the Somme counter offensive despite being carried by French and British over French territory It's just semantics anyway, offensive or counter offensive the outcome isn't any different, maybe because they won't attack Russia proper you could argue semantics should be counter offensive since they wont actually try to conquer Russian territory, some english proffessor can argue later what the right word should be | ||
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2_2
Poland30 Posts
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Mikau313
Netherlands230 Posts
On May 12 2023 19:23 zeo wrote: If your neighbor breaks into your home and punches you, you for example call the police but the police can't do anything to them. After a few months you come up to your neighbor and punch them back in the face. You can't call that self defense or a counter attack, you can call it a justified attack though from your perspective. When you look at WW2, or the Korean/Vietnam War its very clear what an offensive and what a counteroffensive is. Now, Wikipedia as a source is not great, especially with terms that can be manipulated but here is the definition from its article: An offensive is a military operation that seeks through an aggressive projection of armed forces to occupy or recapture territory, gain an objective or achieve some larger strategic, operational, or tactical goal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_(military) So, the fact that territory is being recaptured does not make something a counteroffensive. Just type in 'counteroffensive Ukraine' in Google and search news articles, you see articles from December saying Ukraine is getting ready for a 'decisive winter counteroffensive', and then it became Spring, and talks now of Summer counteroffensive. The ship of Theseus comes to mind when talking about this. EDIT: Using a Starcraft analogy, both of you are Terrans sitting on 5 bases each. The enemy takes out one of your expansions, builds a CC there and then both of you turtle for 10min without anything happening. After 10min you attack that expo and take it back. Now, after 10min of turtling, would any commentator call what you are doing a counter-attack? An attack to take back that expo sure, but a counter-attack? Except for this analogy to work your neighbour would still be in your house, sitting on your sofa, eating your food and raping your wife and daughter. Just because it's been a while since he actively punched you in the face doesn't mean it is any less self defence to fight him. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4707 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17238 Posts
On May 12 2023 19:57 2_2 wrote: To be clear, I 100% agree you could call it an offensive too, a counteroffensive is simply a type of an offensive, so it's not wrong. But it's not wrong to call it a counteroffensive either, so of course they're going to call it a counteroffensive. If you want to be technical then you can't really have counter-offensive without an offensive. Since it seems like Russians aren't on the offense (outside of Bakhmut at least) and the war has pretty much devolved into positional trench warfare I'm not sure we can call it a "Russian offensive", so it's hard to also call what Ukrainian's are doing a counter-offensive. It's more like an offensive with an aim to recapture ground that has been occupied by the Russians. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21536 Posts
On May 12 2023 22:51 Manit0u wrote: The Russians had an offensive a bit ago. It just failed so utterly that it wasn't noticeable in moving territorial lines.If you want to be technical then you can't really have counter-offensive without an offensive. Since it seems like Russians aren't on the offense (outside of Bakhmut at least) and the war has pretty much devolved into positional trench warfare I'm not sure we can call it a "Russian offensive", so it's hard to also call what Ukrainian's are doing a counter-offensive. It's more like an offensive with an aim to recapture ground that has been occupied by the Russians. | ||
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ZeroByte13
754 Posts
Everyone understands what it means, right? "Now it's our time to attack and regain (some of) our lost territories". | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3734 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
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