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On April 18 2023 05:31 Excludos wrote: No one is saying every Russian is an asshole or Putin lover, or even has the impression that they are
Wasn't I answering to exactly this opinion? "my view on any Russian male (and most women) who currently live in Russia and are not actively against the war is that they are basically subhumans at this point."
Hence my point. If you're not against the war, you are pro war, and subhuman trash. It's not difficult or nuanced. But no one is proclaiming that they have to stand on rooftops and shout it, or that every Russian who isn't shouting it from rooftops are Putin lovers
If this war made you feel such strong emotions towards the Russian people that you consider them subhumans, I suggest you quit consuming any source of news regarding the war, no matter which one. That's really all I can say to that.
On April 18 2023 05:37 Excludos wrote: no one is proclaiming that they have to stand on rooftops and shout it, or that every Russian who isn't shouting it from rooftops are Putin lovers
Then what "actively against the war" means if not - figuratively - shouting it from rooftops? That's what I was answering to.
Most Russians you will meet are probably against the war - but not "actively", not shouting about it everywhere. So they won't do as near as much "impact" on most people's views as the fewer loud people who're support it and scream about it.
On April 18 2023 05:31 Excludos wrote: No one is saying every Russian is an asshole or Putin lover, or even has the impression that they are
Wasn't I answering to exactly this opinion? "my view on any Russian male (and most women) who currently live in Russia and are not actively against the war is that they are basically subhumans at this point."
No he's actually correct.
Russians saying they are against the war or even hinting in that direction = actually good people. Russians saying pro war shit (when they don't absolutely have to) = scum of the earth. Russians not saying anything = presumed to be ass-holes until proven otherwise.
And since zero has explained that I don't know much about Russia nor can we ask all the people living there what they think I do indeed believe that some (apparently about a quarter) are complete waste of air and that most others are probably ass-holes.
I hope to be proven wrong in the future (likely only possible if Russia loses this war) when people are more free to speak up but we will see.
Edit: Also for the people being outraged by this. Consider this.
What kind army do you need to have to give those kinds of orders? What kind of soldiers do you need to follow them? What kind of society do you need to create the conditions to get the above?
On April 18 2023 05:31 Excludos wrote: No one is saying every Russian is an asshole or Putin lover, or even has the impression that they are
Wasn't I answering to a somewhat similar opinion? "my view on any Russian male (and most women) who currently live in Russia and are not actively against the war is that they are basically subhumans at this point."
On April 18 2023 05:31 maybenexttime wrote: 40-60% not giving a shit is pretty fucking appalling... ...my expectation is that if I meet a random Russian person, they're more likely than not to be a deplorable person.
40-60% are not "not giving a shit", most of them don't like what is happening but feel they can't do much about it. But of course nothing will be able to change your opinion about it in next few years at least, so I guess why bother.
I've seen countless videos and social media posts by those Russians who don't like what is happening. The vast majority of them are only concerned about the lack of proper gear, stupid commanders, and so on. They couldn't give a shit about their family members being sent to kill innocent Ukrainians, though.
I'm really tired of hearing Russians complain how difficult it is to resist. Poland had an anti-communist underground well into late 50s, during fucking Stalinism. People were getting killed and tortured. Hungary resisted. Czechoslovakia resisted. The Baltics resisted. The Irish resisted against the British. Chechnya resisted against Russia. Iranians and Cambodians are resisting against their regimes. But somehow for the Russians it's impossible. The sad truth is that the reason why it's difficult to resist is that the vast majority of Russians are too fucking comfortable in their fascist shithole. Most Russians LOVE their "strong leaders". They worship vile scumbags like Lenin or Stalin.
Just to be clear, I understand - or at least think I understand - why people think/feel what they think/feel. I respect their views and reasons for these views, and don't expect or even hope to change much if anything in their mindset. I don't like like some, let's say, strong words being used against Russians - as in "all/most Russians" - but it is what it is. Me being Russian and the fact that most people I know are good, smart and peaceful people - of course this impacts my views. I understand this.
On April 18 2023 05:56 maybenexttime wrote: People were getting killed and tortured. Hungary resisted. Czechoslovakia resisted. The Baltics resisted.
Russia also has people resisting, and being tortured and killed. And just like resisting didn't help (or even affect much) any of the countries from Soviet bloc you mentioned until the USSR fell apart competely, thus losing all the power/control and giving these countries freedom to finally do something about the situation - these Russian people's resisting is mostly futile and not very noticeable now.
"I've seen countless videos and social media posts" - don't forget that we usually find what we search for. I've seen countless people who are not like that, but they don't make videos that become popular.
Also russians people are not the one oppressed by a foreign force. They can disagree with their governement, try to do some little protest here and there, some militating. But actual armed résistance? Humans need more pressure than that to put their life on the Line, be it the life they constructed over the years, or life as well.. not being dead. If you dont grasp this you're brainwashed in my opinion.
On April 18 2023 07:07 Kenny808mk wrote: Also russians people are not the one oppressed by a foreign force. They can disagree with their governement, try to do some little protest here and there, some militating. But actual armed résistance? Humans need more pressure than that to put their life on the Line, be it the life they constructed over the years, or life as well.. not being dead. If you dont grasp this you're brainwashed in my opinion.
Agreed. It shouldn't come as a shock that Jack and Jane and Katya and Dmitri do not have a duty to risk their well-being for that of any number of the billions of strangers around the world. Even demanding a single person to surrender their well-being for thousands or millions of strangers seems preposterous - unless they've caused that dilemma themselves.
The "sacrifice" for the "greater good" is a very dangerous idea. Facists use it to coerce and force people into doing their bidding. Hitler, Stalin, and Putin as well adhere to this idea.
I remember when people in this thread - despite most of them not having direct or indirect relations with Ukrainians - were suddenly referring to Russian people in general as "orcs". Although I understand that this was, by some of them, an offhand remark, I still felt the need to step in and call out the language, because I consider it dehumanizing. Orcs, subhumans, these are the same words with the same fundamental meaning and purpose, and such language isn't just delicate, it's dangerous.
On April 18 2023 15:10 Magic Powers wrote: I remember when people in this thread - despite most of them not having direct or indirect relations with Ukrainians - were suddenly referring to Russian people in general as "orcs". Although I understand that this was, by some of them, an offhand remark, I still felt the need to step in and call out the language, because I consider it dehumanizing. Orcs, subhumans, these are the same words with the same fundamental meaning and purpose, and such language isn't just delicate, it's dangerous.
I think people are quick to adopt such rhetoric after being fed such stuff by the US for so long during the war on terror. If we're speaking semantics and ethics then you can't really "hunt" people, only animals, the same with designating key figures as playing cards (Jack of Spades etc.).
Dehumanizing isn't something new, it's actually very prevalent and I guess it helps people cope with the situation since most seem to forget there are two victims on each side of the weapon.
On April 18 2023 07:07 Kenny808mk wrote: Also russians people are not the one oppressed by a foreign force. They can disagree with their governement, try to do some little protest here and there, some militating. But actual armed résistance? Humans need more pressure than that to put their life on the Line, be it the life they constructed over the years, or life as well.. not being dead. If you dont grasp this you're brainwashed in my opinion.
Agreed. It shouldn't come as a shock that Jack and Jane and Katya and Dmitri do not have a duty to risk their well-being for that of any number of the billions of strangers around the world. Even demanding a single person to surrender their well-being for thousands or millions of strangers seems preposterous - unless they've caused that dilemma themselves.
The "sacrifice" for the "greater good" is a very dangerous idea. Facists use it to coerce and force people into doing their bidding. Hitler, Stalin, and Putin as well adhere to this idea.
I remember when people in this thread - despite most of them not having direct or indirect relations with Ukrainians - were suddenly referring to Russian people in general as "orcs". Although I understand that this was, by some of them, an offhand remark, I still felt the need to step in and call out the language, because I consider it dehumanizing. Orcs, subhumans, these are the same words with the same fundamental meaning and purpose, and such language isn't just delicate, it's dangerous.
It's kinda weird to put people into the same category as Hitler, Stalin and Putin for asking the citizens of Russia to not support their fascist government in an invasion of another foreign country and attempted genocide, just because their "sacrifice" would be for an illusive greater goal.
No. Fuck them. If they are going along with it or actively helping in this, they are complicit and bear some or all of the guilt. In Germany we are, to this day, prosecuting people for having aided or abetted the Nazis. Some months ago there was a trial of a 90+ old woman because she was a secretary for the Nazis in one of the camps as an underaged girl (and thus judged under juvenile law). I think it is absolutely vital that everyone understands, including the Russian people, that they share the responsibility and the guilt of their government in this, and that they will have to deal with this after the war. Otherwise there will be no transformation nor a peaceful Russia in the future. The gloves are off.
You cannot tell me that for hundreds of thousands or even millions of people, the choice between "Going over to another country to kill their men, women and children, devastate their country and risk a lone and miserable death in a cold and muddy ditch" and risking fines or prison time is a particularly hard choice to make. Not just on moral grounds. You cannot tell me that not picking the first option is somehow too much to ask for from Katya and Dmitri.
Because apparently we are holding 16 year old girls to a higher standard for having been a secretary instead of risking the wrath of the fucking Nazis.
This has to stop somewhere. Their history is full of atrocities, of genocide, of forced migrations and deportations, of Russification. Until they have demonstrated to the world that they can feel compassion for their fellow human beings and have developed a moral code and sense of justice that has developed further than that of Ivan the Terrible and that they think is worth defending, with their life if need be, they will indeed be orcs to me. And I think it is our obligation to show the citizens of Russia that this kind of behavior is not okay; that it's not okay to support or comply with a genocidal government and that there are consequences for it. Language is just one part of this. And in the absence of other weapons, this can serve as one.
Tolerance doesn't work on the intolerant because they have left the bounds of the social contract and decided to live outside of it. The rules of tolerance that hold us together as a community no longer apply to them and will not until they are ready to re-join the society. It is okay to be intolerant towards Nazis, ISIS and Orcs. I want to see you make the same argument for Ahmet when he decided to join ISIS and behead a journalist; that he is still somehow a person whos humanity we need to respect.
There is a line somewhere, of course. But I don't think that people who cannot bring themselves to say that their government is wrong for wanting to eradicate the Ukrainian state and its people are on the right side of that line.
Pretty sure the average Russian who doesn't 'do enough' to stop Putin has more in common with the average European who didn't 'do enough' to stop the bombing of Libya or the average American who didn't 'do enough' to stop war in Iraq than they do with Ahmed the Beheader.
Even your own example about Germany is misleading. Germany prosecutes people who have done something to be prosecuted for, you sure as hell don't blanket call every single German who lived through the times of war as a subhuman orc who deserves nothing but death. But apparently the standards are different for Russia?
On April 18 2023 07:07 Kenny808mk wrote: Also russians people are not the one oppressed by a foreign force. They can disagree with their governement, try to do some little protest here and there, some militating. But actual armed résistance? Humans need more pressure than that to put their life on the Line, be it the life they constructed over the years, or life as well.. not being dead. If you dont grasp this you're brainwashed in my opinion.
Agreed. It shouldn't come as a shock that Jack and Jane and Katya and Dmitri do not have a duty to risk their well-being for that of any number of the billions of strangers around the world. Even demanding a single person to surrender their well-being for thousands or millions of strangers seems preposterous - unless they've caused that dilemma themselves.
The "sacrifice" for the "greater good" is a very dangerous idea. Facists use it to coerce and force people into doing their bidding. Hitler, Stalin, and Putin as well adhere to this idea.
I remember when people in this thread - despite most of them not having direct or indirect relations with Ukrainians - were suddenly referring to Russian people in general as "orcs". Although I understand that this was, by some of them, an offhand remark, I still felt the need to step in and call out the language, because I consider it dehumanizing. Orcs, subhumans, these are the same words with the same fundamental meaning and purpose, and such language isn't just delicate, it's dangerous.
It's kinda weird to put people into the same category as Hitler, Stalin and Putin for asking the citizens of Russia to not support their fascist government in an invasion of another foreign country and attempted genocide, just because their "sacrifice" would be for an illusive greater goal.
No. Fuck them. If they are going along with it or actively helping in this, they are complicit and bear some or all of the guilt. In Germany we are, to this day, prosecuting people for having aided or abetted the Nazis. Some months ago there was a trial of a 90+ old woman because she was a secretary for the Nazis in one of the camps as an underaged girl (and thus judged under juvenile law). I think it is absolutely vital that everyone understands, including the Russian people, that they share the responsibility and the guilt of their government in this, and that they will have to deal with this after the war. Otherwise there will be no transformation nor a peaceful Russia in the future. The gloves are off.
You cannot tell me that for hundreds of thousands or even millions of people, the choice between "Going over to another country to kill their men, women and children, devastate their country and risk a lone and miserable death in a cold and muddy ditch" and risking fines or prison time is a particularly hard choice to make. Not just on moral grounds. You cannot tell me that not picking the first option is somehow too much to ask for from Katya and Dmitri.
Because apparently we are holding 16 year old girls to a higher standard for having been a secretary instead of risking the wrath of the fucking Nazis.
This has to stop somewhere. Their history is full of atrocities, of genocide, of forced migrations and deportations, of Russification. Until they have demonstrated to the world that they can feel compassion for their fellow human beings and have developed a moral code and sense of justice that has developed further than that of Ivan the Terrible and that they think is worth defending, with their life if need be, they will indeed be orcs to me. And I think it is our obligation to show the citizens of Russia that this kind of behavior is not okay; that it's not okay to support or comply with a genocidal government and that there are consequences for it. Language is just one part of this. And in the absence of other weapons, this can serve as one.
Tolerance doesn't work on the intolerant because they have left the bounds of the social contract and decided to live outside of it. The rules of tolerance that hold us together as a community no longer apply to them and will not until they are ready to re-join the society. It is okay to be intolerant towards Nazis, ISIS and Orcs. I want to see you make the same argument for Ahmet when he decided to join ISIS and behead a journalist; that he is still somehow a person whos humanity we need to respect.
There is a line somewhere, of course. But I don't think that people who cannot bring themselves to say that their government is wrong for wanting to eradicate the Ukrainian state and its people are on the right side of that line.
I'm going to be very nice to you and assume that your views stem from a complete lack of understanding of how Putin and the Kremlin operate to keep the Russian population obedient.
I'd also like to add that we don't prosecute people who just existed during the nazi regime here in Germany. We didn't even persecute the average soldier. We prosecute those who actively participated in the atrocities in some way. Like being in the administration of a concentration camp.
While it is obviously better to be part of some sort of resistance, just not actively participating is the standard we hold people to. And i think that is fair with Russia, too. It is hard to be part of a resistance movement. It is really easy not to be involved in murder.
If i were in Russia, i would probably try to flee the country. I am not a hero, and i don't think that is a fair thing to expect off people. Not being a villain would be enough. As such, i wouldn't demonize the Russians who are not involved in the war. Yes, they could do more, but so could any one of us in a myriad of situations. We are not talking about Ahmed joining ISIS and beheading journalists or Ivan joining the military to rape and pillage in Ukraine. Those are obviously bad things, and those people are villains. We are talking about Ahmed just keeping on working in his bakery while the civil war is going on, or Ivan working in the street cleaning crew in some random town in Russia.
Furthermore, i would really say that we as Germans should know better than to put other people into a category of "subhumans". If it is calling people "rats" or "parasites" or "subhuman" or "orc" doesn't really matter.
And i think some compassion should be available for the conscripted Russians. Once again, we have our history. Not every soldier in the Nazi military was a nazi. Some were just dudes who had the bad luck of being 20 years old in 1940, and who got pressed into service. Make it as easy as possible for them to surrender. Have fair trials for war crimes.
Not sure how widespread it was and I dunno if it was really verified but I remember reading that people engaged in protests after the mobilization weren't punished by fines or jail time, but through being drafted. And I'm guessing into a wagner-esque role on the battlefield.
Obviously the Caspery people exist and suck pretty hard, but I can't fault people for prioritizing their own survival. Not everyone has fleeing the country as a real option either. And honestly I'm not sure people can necessarily be blamed if they've bought in on the propaganda, either.
A good watch if anyone is interested (and patient enough to sit through a lengthy video). This guy actually makes some good content as a middle-aged Russian who was running his own business in Russia and was forced to flee the country out of fear of what started going on in there after the war began.
Some of the highlights of Russian Q1 financial report (compared to Q1/22):
Oil & gas revenues: down 45%
Budget income: down 21%
Budget expenses: up 44%
Budget deficit: ~4.6 trillion RUB (will probably turn into big inflation as they printed over 2 trillion RUB to patch it up)
When someone joins ISIS and starts beheading people there is often a discussion about the kind of cultural, religious and economic reasons there are for doing such extreme things.
Russias army is doing ISIS levels of warcrimes in Ukraine but almost no one in the west expected that. And frankly many people seem to have problems even accepting it.
What is happening is similar to the atrocities in Germany in '44 and '45 by the red army, right down to the alcholism and leveled cities. The difference is of course that in WWII the red army had just fougth of invaders trying their best to genocide their entire country which has been historically been used to explain it.
But this time they are invading what is supposed a brother country. It is like Sweden going full nazi invasion on Norway to steal their oil.
Also there is the full spectrum of warcrimes from individuals acting on their own, groups, orders to commit warcrimes and basically all the way up to the strategic levels (lets try to break civilian infrastructure in the most efficent way possible to terrorize them into surrendering).
There seems to be little or no reaction from the army itself, apparantly this is fine and the way things are.
That can't have happend overnight. The Russian army was like this before the war. And an army is made up from people who come from a society. And if the army decides to go full ISIS in 2022 with cameras everywhere that is going to reflect very badly on that society, the people living in it and their culture. Because people don't just lose all their morals from putting on a uniform. The nazis did manage to make ordinary people commit warcrimes but they often had to work to get them there. Warcrimes have at best no military value and are often counterproductive to the war effort, and there are multiple levels of oversight in any army that at the very least has to ignore whats happening. So it seems almost like a culture within the institution itself.
So even if the average Russian can't be expected to voice their dissent something still smells rotten in the state of Russia. And that is if we are being very generous with our assumptions of why the vast majority keep silent or are pro war.
I totally agree that something is very rotten in Russia, and that the correct Russian Regime is absolutely horrible.
But i think that we need to not judge people only because they are Russian. Judge individuals, not groups, is a core tenet of human rights. There are a lot of Russians who absolutely deserve blame, because of the stuff they individually did or are doing. Not because of the group they belong to.
I don't have any good solutions on how one would ever solve Russia and get it to be a better place both for the people living there and for the neighbour countries.
A good watch if anyone is interested (and patient enough to sit through a lengthy video). This guy actually makes some good content as a middle-aged Russian who was running his own business in Russia and was forced to flee the country out of fear of what started going on in there after the war began.
Some of the highlights of Russian Q1 financial report (compared to Q1/22):
Oil & gas revenues: down 45%
Budget income: down 21%
Budget expenses: up 44%
Budget deficit: ~4.6 trillion RUB (will probably turn into big inflation as they printed over 2 trillion RUB to patch it up)
Revenues are misleading here. Let’s say you sell a barrel at $100 with $40 cost. Profit is $60. Now let’s say you sell the same barrel but due to price limits the revenue drops 45% to $55. Profit is $15. You’ve lost 75% of your margin from a 45% drop in revenue because cost didn’t move with it.
That’s why economists are cheerleading India and China buying steeply discounted Russian oil. Oil is an inelastic commodity, demand doesn’t change much with price. If the supply goes down then someone who needs oil has to go without but but most people have to buy it and so the price has to go up a lot before demand goes down to match supply. My demand for oil is not price sensitive, I’d still fill my car at 10x the price because I need to get to work. Enough people like me and the price can spike out of control.
If we completely cut Russia off from the market then their revenues would crash but the price of oil would soar and even low quantities of smuggled Russian oil would fetch good prices. Plus the political fallout would be significant, famines in the third world and cost of living issues in the first. The price caps have destroyed Russian revenues without constricting global supply. The more they sell at capped prices the better.
There is no reaction from the Russian army because that's how they have always operated. They acted the same when they invaded Poland in 1939, they did that in Afghanistan, they did that in Chechnya and now they're doing it in Ukraine.
EPT
