EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 367
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On January 30 2023 19:39 schaf wrote: How would you even begin to prove that? All we do here is speculate from perspectives of very uninformed people. None of us is in the room with Olaf when he talks to his advisors or the other heads of state. Public announcements are hand crafted to tell a narrative that might or might not have anything to do with reality. The only reliable way to interpret what public figures say is by what actually happens afterwards. Which is exactly what Scholz had announced, so where is his obstructiveness and indecision? Are you kidding me? Did you follow this thread at all? So many countries were begging Scholz to greenlight the tanks but he kept blocking them. This went on for I don't even know how long. He was by far the most obstructive party in the debacle, which is why he became the face of it. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22705 Posts
Which is entirely the difference between how Germany reacted to sending tanks and how the US reacted to sending fighters. The Netherlands offered sending F-16's and the US came right out and publicly said "if you want to do that, go right ahead". | ||
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On January 30 2023 19:50 Gorsameth wrote: If not blocking directly then atleast the German government was non committal. They kept saying "no one has officially asked" rather then just saying "we're ok with it if someone wants to do it". Which is entirely the difference between how Germany reacted to sending tanks and how the US reacted to sending fighters. The Netherlands offered sending F-16's and the US came right out and publicly said "if you want to do that, go right ahead". This is false. Scholz was actively blocking Leopard 2s from being donated to Ukraine. "Ahead of a meeting of Western defense ministers this Friday at the U.S. Ramstein air base in Germany, Chancellor Olaf Scholz is being goaded to help Ukraine get Germany’s best-in-class Leopard 2 tanks in anticipation of a possible spring offensive. The reason: In addition to overseeing his own fleet of Leopard tanks — and Europe’s largest economy — Scholz must approve other countries’ donations of the German-made tanks." https://www.politico.eu/article/olaf-scholz-germany-joe-biden-united-states-ukraine-war-tanks-leopards-waiting/ Furthermore the argument of "goading" the US into sending battle tanks by blocking Leopard 2s all across Europe AND of the German stock as well makes absolutely no sense. It makes far more sense to fast-track mass shipment so that the US/Biden (and any other allied nation) would lose face if they then refused to provide some of their own. This would create a win-win-win for everyone, whereas Scholz's approach made him/Germany lose face while Ukraine kept waiting and everyone else looked just fine. That's a lose-lose-whatever scenario with no purpose. Scholz not only blocked Leopard 2s, he also refused to send the ones sitting in Germany. The man was being deliberately obstructive and that was certainly not for any pro-Ukraine reason. Please can we stop defending that guy with terrible argumentation? At least use some good arguments. Edit: I must apologize. I read your comment again more carefully and I think I misinterpreted it. You weren't defending Scholz. My bad, sorry. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22705 Posts
On January 30 2023 19:53 Simberto wrote: Public image? Precedent?But why didn't people officially ask? That is so weird. If you are annoyed about non-committal answers, send an official request. You are sure to either get a yes or a no. Not wanting the headline "Germany officially denies request" putting a complete stop to the idea of helping Ukraine with tanks? I imagine the notion of asking privately if someone would approve before officially making requests is pretty normal in diplomacy, the fact it happened so publicly this time makes me think it got asked a lot privately aswell and Germany gave the same nonsense evasive answers. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On January 30 2023 20:15 Simberto wrote: And yet when they officially asked, they got a "yes". Yes. Coinciding with Scholz being under immense international scrutiny unable to keep weaseling his way out without completely losing face on the world stage. Sarcasm aside, at that point the man had no other choice than to greenlight the Leopard 2s. If he had kept blocking, he would've received the gold star for biggest douchebag on the planet. The reality is that Scholz wasn't the one playing others, he was playing himself, and other nations realized that the noose was tightening around his neck, and some of them took advantage of the situation by letting him hang himself further while they looked fabulous on the world stage. No one gained anything from Scholz's obstructiveness. He messed up and made everyone lose. And now he's going to do it all over again with fighter jets. That isn't to say that many leaders in other nations weren't equally to blame. If anyone here wants to raise points about Macron, I'll follow right behind. I just don't care to criticize him right now because he already had his turn. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22705 Posts
On January 30 2023 20:15 Simberto wrote: Which makes it so stupid that they didn't say "if people want to we will approve" ages ago and avoid all these months of bad PR.And yet when they officially asked, they got a "yes". That or they wanted to say No months ago and they finally relented under the pressure. Either way, its been a bad look for Germany. | ||
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
On January 30 2023 20:01 Magic Powers wrote: This is false. Scholz was actively blocking Leopard 2s from being donated to Ukraine. "Ahead of a meeting of Western defense ministers this Friday at the U.S. Ramstein air base in Germany, Chancellor Olaf Scholz is being goaded to help Ukraine get Germany’s best-in-class Leopard 2 tanks in anticipation of a possible spring offensive. The reason: In addition to overseeing his own fleet of Leopard tanks — and Europe’s largest economy — Scholz must approve other countries’ donations of the German-made tanks." https://www.politico.eu/article/olaf-scholz-germany-joe-biden-united-states-ukraine-war-tanks-leopards-waiting/ Furthermore the argument of "goading" the US into sending battle tanks by blocking Leopard 2s all across Europe AND of the German stock as well makes absolutely no sense. It makes far more sense to fast-track mass shipment so that the US/Biden (and any other allied nation) would lose face if they then refused to provide some of their own. This would create a win-win-win for everyone, whereas Scholz's approach made him/Germany lose face while Ukraine kept waiting and everyone else looked just fine. That's a lose-lose-whatever scenario with no purpose. Scholz not only blocked Leopard 2s, he also refused to send the ones sitting in Germany. The man was being deliberately obstructive and that was certainly not for any pro-Ukraine reason. Please can we stop defending that guy with terrible argumentation? At least use some good arguments. Edit: I must apologize. I read your comment again more carefully and I think I misinterpreted it. You weren't defending Scholz. My bad, sorry. I don't understand... There is a world of difference between saying "No, you can't send tanks" And "Yes you can, just submit a request beforehand". Sending Leopards would put NO pressure on the US as the narrative pushed by US officials that was (as I recall) generally accepted was that US tanks would be more of a burden than a boon. That wouldn't change at all if only Europe would send tanks. And guess what? Sending 40 German tanks would change absolutely nothing in this war. Ukraine needs a lot of tanks, they have a very long front to deal with and need to be able to push everywhere. It's much better to organize a lot of nations and send 100 or more in a coordinated manner. There is criticism to be levelled at the German government for sure, but painting them as knuckle-draggers that only block everything is quite unjust. That image is painted by this topic being in the media for weeks with every utterance of any German politician being broadcast and put under the microscope combined with grandstanding from other governments. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On January 30 2023 20:27 schaf wrote: I don't understand... There is a world of difference between saying "No, you can't send tanks" And "Yes you can, just submit a request beforehand". Sending Leopards would put NO pressure on the US as the narrative pushed by US officials that was (as I recall) generally accepted was that US tanks would be more of a burden than a boon. That wouldn't change at all if only Europe would send tanks. And guess what? Sending 40 German tanks would change absolutely nothing in this war. Ukraine needs a lot of tanks, they have a very long front to deal with and need to be able to push everywhere. It's much better to organize a lot of nations and send 100 or more in a coordinated manner. There is criticism to be levelled at the German government for sure, but painting them as knuckle-draggers that only block everything is quite unjust. That image is painted by this topic being in the media for weeks with every utterance of any German politician being broadcast and put under the microscope combined with grandstanding from other governments. Scholz in his own words: "I'm afraid of escalation if Germany sends battle tanks." "If the US greenlights Abrams that would help Germany decide to also send battle tanks." "We can give the greenlight for Leopard 2s but we haven't even received an official request yet." Why not just instead say this: "Germany is going to send two bataillons of Leopard 2s by March. We're in communication with other countries about their stock of German Leopard 2s. Ultimately every nation must make a decision for themselves and we're eager to be among the ones leading the charge." Imagine how that statement would've turned up the heat under Macron's ass. But that's not Scholz. His whole shtick is that of the scared old grandpa in a poker game folding Aces preflop. I'm not defending other nations by criticizing Scholz. I think this is a classic error in communication. When I'm criticizing Scholz and not mentioning how other allied nations are failing Ukraine, that's not because they aren't playing their own detestable game of politics. What it means is simply that Germany sticks out the most and thus deserves the most criticism. Scholz is the leading head of Germany and he calls the shots, so his statements are under heavy scrutiny. Macron remained silent while Scholz was hanging himself - a smart move on his part, not a friendly move, not a move that I would commend, but a smart move nonetheless. PS: Scholz didn't "organize" donations of Leopard 2s. He certainly did not. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
Throughout the war, Germany has solidly been in the middle of the pack donating stuff to Ukraine. Just look at the fucking stats. Now we are even donating tanks, and as soon as people officially asked, we told them that yes, they too could send German battle tanks if they want to. And less than a week after that, we are once again the obstructing bad guys. Can't you guys pick on someone else for a second? Like the US who has thousands of tanks just standing around doing nothing? Or all the countries who have sent far less than Germany by any reasonable metric (Total, Per capita, Per GDP) It is not as if anyone had sent any modern Nato tanks before Germany, either. But no, it is just constantly bashing Germany on all the fucking channels. Why? It is getting really, really annoying. There does not seem to be anything we can do to stop that. Look at the fucking statistics. There are countries which are far more deserving of your hate when it comes to support for Ukraine. Can we have a fucking break for just one minute? Germany sticks out the most because everyone is constantly looking at Germany for some reason. If you look at one country all the time, of course that is where you will find most of the fault. Edit: For example, Magic Powers. You are from Austria. Why don't you wonder why Austria has sent far, far less than Germany by any metric? Especially in the realm of military equipment? But of course, it is much more comfortable to look at Germany and say that we are the baddies. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10168 Posts
On January 30 2023 20:15 Simberto wrote: And yet when they officially asked, they got a "yes". Asking before hand at closed doors is just common courtesy. At first, you attempt to not disturb your ally with unpopular headlines for months, but if he does not give a proper answer, you relentlessly let the gates flow until he crumbles to public opinion. Edit : Austria does not represent the EU leadership as Germany do. That France is getting away while german has all sights on it, is mostly because other europeans armies don't have french tanks ready to send to Ukraine, but rather german ones. The constant german posts about how they are doing their fair share, but don't seem to understand what your fair share is, and it's not just about the amount of equipment you send by being called out constantly... but making the fucking stand and assuming the leadership needed. Instead you get all those phony answers that should had never happened before (like the official request, that one is as silly as me like a children telling my professor that my dog ate my homework). | ||
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Artesimo
Germany628 Posts
On January 30 2023 21:48 Godwrath wrote: Asking before hand at closed doors is just common courtesy. At first, you attempt to not disturb your ally with unpopular headlines for months, but if he does not give a proper answer, you relentlessly let the gates flow until he crumbles to public opinion. Estonia had no problems asking first, even if they got shut down the first time they wanted to send howitzers at the start of the war. The whole tank thing wonderfully highlights how charitably is given to one and not the others. Anonymous claims of germany blocking other countries to export leopard2 are beleived, while german officials claiming that germany isn't the only european nation being cautious when it comes to tanks are completely ignored. Also, since we keep going on about this leader nonsense. Being a leader doesn't mean doing what other people want you to do. What you are really complaining about is germany not doing what you want. Reiterating the delicate state of the Bundeswehr is no use anyway, so I am not even gonna bother. Or that even in the west the military doesn't exist just so you can protect your country. Ukraine got its tanks, the US was forced to send tanks as well, most likely thanks to germany. Even if that was an unintended consequence, it is a massive win in my eyes and far better than getting any leopards. You need the US to deliver tanks in the long run, simple as. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22705 Posts
On January 30 2023 22:13 Artesimo wrote: But other countries being cautious doesn't matter, their approval is not required for another country to send tanks. Only Germans approval was needed.Estonia had no problems asking first, even if they got shut down the first time they wanted to send howitzers at the start of the war. The whole tank thing wonderfully highlights how charitably is given to one and not the others. Anonymous claims of germany blocking other countries to export leopard2 are beleived, while german officials claiming that germany isn't the only european nation being cautious when it comes to tanks are completely ignored. Also, since we keep going on about this leader nonsense. Being a leader doesn't mean doing what other people want you to do. What you are really complaining about is germany not doing what you want. Reiterating the delicate state of the Bundeswehr is no use anyway, so I am not even gonna bother. Or that even in the west the military doesn't exist just so you can protect your country. Ukraine got its tanks, the US was forced to send tanks as well, most likely thanks to germany. Even if that was an unintended consequence, it is a massive win in my eyes and far better than getting any leopards. You need the US to deliver tanks in the long run, simple as. | ||
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Artesimo
Germany628 Posts
On January 30 2023 22:22 Gorsameth wrote: But other countries being cautious doesn't matter, their approval is not required for another country to send tanks. Only Germans approval was needed. It is if you are supposed to be the european leader and want united actions. | ||
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DropBear
Australia4442 Posts
On January 30 2023 21:23 Simberto wrote: See, at this point i am getting pretty pissed off. Throughout the war, Germany has solidly been in the middle of the pack donating stuff to Ukraine. Just look at the fucking stats. Now we are even donating tanks, and as soon as people officially asked, we told them that yes, they too could send German battle tanks if they want to. And less than a week after that, we are once again the obstructing bad guys. Can't you guys pick on someone else for a second? Like the US who has thousands of tanks just standing around doing nothing? Or all the countries who have sent far less than Germany by any reasonable metric (Total, Per capita, Per GDP) It is not as if anyone had sent any modern Nato tanks before Germany, either. But no, it is just constantly bashing Germany on all the fucking channels. Why? It is getting really, really annoying. There does not seem to be anything we can do to stop that. Look at the fucking statistics. There are countries which are far more deserving of your hate when it comes to support for Ukraine. Can we have a fucking break for just one minute? Germany sticks out the most because everyone is constantly looking at Germany for some reason. If you look at one country all the time, of course that is where you will find most of the fault. Edit: For example, Magic Powers. You are from Austria. Why don't you wonder why Austria has sent far, far less than Germany by any metric? Especially in the realm of military equipment? But of course, it is much more comfortable to look at Germany and say that we are the baddies. From the outside looking in, this is pretty pertinent. I guess if you are pointing at someone else you are avoiding doing anything yourself. Much easier for someone else to make the difficult decisions and follow suit. Plus it benefits Russia to have someone in the opposition alliance getting shit on by their allies and in the media. So it's not constructive criticism either. Edit: what cuddly said | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2914 Posts
On January 30 2023 21:23 Simberto wrote: See, at this point i am getting pretty pissed off. Throughout the war, Germany has solidly been in the middle of the pack donating stuff to Ukraine. Just look at the fucking stats. Now we are even donating tanks, and as soon as people officially asked, we told them that yes, they too could send German battle tanks if they want to. And less than a week after that, we are once again the obstructing bad guys. Can't you guys pick on someone else for a second? Like the US who has thousands of tanks just standing around doing nothing? Or all the countries who have sent far less than Germany by any reasonable metric (Total, Per capita, Per GDP) It is not as if anyone had sent any modern Nato tanks before Germany, either. But no, it is just constantly bashing Germany on all the fucking channels. Why? It is getting really, really annoying. There does not seem to be anything we can do to stop that. Look at the fucking statistics. There are countries which are far more deserving of your hate when it comes to support for Ukraine. Can we have a fucking break for just one minute? Germany sticks out the most because everyone is constantly looking at Germany for some reason. If you look at one country all the time, of course that is where you will find most of the fault. Edit: For example, Magic Powers. You are from Austria. Why don't you wonder why Austria has sent far, far less than Germany by any metric? Especially in the realm of military equipment? But of course, it is much more comfortable to look at Germany and say that we are the baddies. Welcome to psy-ops. You take a bit of original Ukrainian calling out countries to get more aid, you add several pounds of PiS pre election populism, magnify by ten from opportunistic Russian psy-ops and clickbait media and let simmer in internet heard mentality. The mayor Ukrainian sites and subreddits banned Germany bashing even before Scholz sent tanks and it is because "our" psy-ops people realized it was harmful. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Also Ukraine intercepts is stating that the 155th Pacific Marine Brigade has been completely destroyed in attacks on Vuhledar. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10990 Posts
On January 30 2023 22:22 Gorsameth wrote: But other countries being cautious doesn't matter, their approval is not required for another country to send tanks. Only Germans approval was needed. Afaik Poland didn't even ask officially for permission to do it before bitching about the germans not allowing it? I also didn't hear that other countries officially asked for stuff. To me it seems as soon as there was a broad consensus that tanks are ok to send, the germans were fine with it. You might wish for germany to take more of a lead, but germany (and the germans) in general don't really want to do that, the french also seem very hesitant. The US and UK were also not super excited on delivering heavy tanks. | ||
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