|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On October 14 2022 13:54 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2022 12:39 geod wrote:On October 14 2022 11:51 KwarK wrote:On October 14 2022 10:47 geod wrote:One event at a specific time and specific location is enough for you to shit-talk their whole history of thousand years? Very well played indeed! 500 years ago Ivan IV embarked on a specific policy of “Russofication” to wipe out the Tatar culture of the defeated Khanate of Kazan. 200 years ago Cossacks were displaced and their lands were given to Russian settlers to break them up as a unified bloc. 150 years ago Crimean Tatars were ethnically cleansed as part of Alexander IIs state policy of Russofication. Where are evidences for other minority groups? I mean if you want to go through the history of Russian attempts to destroy the culture of the miniority populations under it you can just check out the Wikipedia page on it. The finns went through two periods of it near the end of the Russian empire and declared independence at the end of the first World War. It's much harder to find an example of a minority group Russia hasn't tried to genocide when it could.
And now culture elimination has just been added into the mix and "wiki yourself", well said guys.
|
Canada11385 Posts
On October 14 2022 14:59 geod wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2022 13:50 Falling wrote:
Before that, do you acknowledge that as evidence of an example of ethnic cleansing of a minority over the course of multiple periods of time? Or this the endless goal shift? Because if another group is brought up are you just going to ask for a third? And if a third is brought up, will you just ask for a fourth? You should reread KwarK's generelized claim and you the common sense conclusion for yourself.
I ask because I could talk about my own people's villages emptied into gulags by the Soviet regime (my people were not Tatars), but I rather doubt it would matter much to you based on your responses.
|
On October 14 2022 07:33 Ardias wrote:Russia didn't even come close to this effect, the most they achieved were 20-25% on 24 Feb and 10 Oct and both of these shut downs lasted for a couple of days, after that power was rerouted, and damage probably repaired (at least 24 Feb one). Which makes me wonder what's the reason behind this restrain. Thousands of missiles were launched over the course of the war, but in only two separate cases they were used against energy infrastructure. If Putin really wanted to pound Ukraine to submission - that would be the easiest way possible. It doesn't make sense to destroy the infrastructure of a country you intend to occupy within 3 days. Remember there wasn't supposed to be much of a fight.
By the time they realised they were fighting the wrong kind of war they were running out of precision missiles.
Plus your comparing NATO warfare tactics with Russia's and the 2 are, as we have seen, very different in their approach.
|
On October 14 2022 15:05 geod wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2022 13:54 Sermokala wrote:On October 14 2022 12:39 geod wrote:On October 14 2022 11:51 KwarK wrote:On October 14 2022 10:47 geod wrote:One event at a specific time and specific location is enough for you to shit-talk their whole history of thousand years? Very well played indeed! 500 years ago Ivan IV embarked on a specific policy of “Russofication” to wipe out the Tatar culture of the defeated Khanate of Kazan. 200 years ago Cossacks were displaced and their lands were given to Russian settlers to break them up as a unified bloc. 150 years ago Crimean Tatars were ethnically cleansed as part of Alexander IIs state policy of Russofication. Where are evidences for other minority groups? I mean if you want to go through the history of Russian attempts to destroy the culture of the miniority populations under it you can just check out the Wikipedia page on it. The finns went through two periods of it near the end of the Russian empire and declared independence at the end of the first World War. It's much harder to find an example of a minority group Russia hasn't tried to genocide when it could. And now culture elimination has just been added into the mix and "wiki yourself", well said guys.
We are not going to waste our time proving well known facts.
|
On October 14 2022 10:47 geod wrote:One event at a specific time and specific location is enough for you to shit-talk their whole history of thousand years? Very well played indeed!
It looks like you didn’t open the links. The first link, Population Transfer in the Soviet Union, describes mass deportation of numerous ethnic minorities and peoples living in occupied territories. Ukraine, Poland, Moldova, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia... and not only the Crimean Tatars but also Chechens, Koreans, and a dozen ethnic groups I’d never heard of until now. It quotes Khrushchev:
We refer to the mass deportations from their native places of whole nations... This deportation action was not dictated by any military considerations. Thus, already at the end of 1943, when there occurred a permanent breakthrough at the fronts... a decision was taken and executed concerning the deportation of all the Karachay from the lands on which they lived. In the same period, at the end of December 1943, the same lot befell whole population of the Autonomous Kalmyk Republic. In March all the Chechen and Ingush peoples were deported and the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Republic was liquidated. In April 1944, all Balkars were deported to faraway places from the territory of the Kalbino-Balkar Autonomous Republic and the Republic itself was renamed the Autonomous Kabardin Republic.
I’ll grant you that that first link refers to events from one particular time period. If you’re genuinely curious about other time periods, other posters may have information to share, but it does appear that you’ve avoided reading the links with which you’ve already been furnished.
|
Almost every response from geod is deflection.
In regards to the missile strikes: Russia is hitting targets in the far west of Ukraine near the border. This makes no militaristic sense whatsoever because Russia has no units in place to exploit any potential shutdowns from those regions withing a reasonable timeframe. The Russian troops have advanced at a snails pace, and the recent report of greater gains was a propaganda effort. These strikes into the heart and back of Ukraine are mainly an attempt to frustrate the population and stir disunity in Europe. They combine that with online propaganda on social media to strengthen the effect. Russia wants to appear strong by sending lots of missiles flying. It's not war strategy, it's propaganda.
|
On October 14 2022 15:05 geod wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2022 13:54 Sermokala wrote:On October 14 2022 12:39 geod wrote:On October 14 2022 11:51 KwarK wrote:On October 14 2022 10:47 geod wrote:One event at a specific time and specific location is enough for you to shit-talk their whole history of thousand years? Very well played indeed! 500 years ago Ivan IV embarked on a specific policy of “Russofication” to wipe out the Tatar culture of the defeated Khanate of Kazan. 200 years ago Cossacks were displaced and their lands were given to Russian settlers to break them up as a unified bloc. 150 years ago Crimean Tatars were ethnically cleansed as part of Alexander IIs state policy of Russofication. Where are evidences for other minority groups? I mean if you want to go through the history of Russian attempts to destroy the culture of the miniority populations under it you can just check out the Wikipedia page on it. The finns went through two periods of it near the end of the Russian empire and declared independence at the end of the first World War. It's much harder to find an example of a minority group Russia hasn't tried to genocide when it could. And now culture elimination has just been added into the mix and "wiki yourself", well said guys.
I am surprised you don't simply point to all the other empires of doing similar things. The ethnic cleansing of the Soviet Union are well documented, because they happened much later then all the other Empires or countries with a contantly growing border. The US did it to the native Americans, the british did it in Africa, so did France, both in the 19th century. We talk about that as in the past. The Russians were just 50 years behind. Claiming that Russia has hundreds of years of ethnic cleansing is like saying Germans have been violent warmongerers since the name German was incepted and then pointing to the Third Reich. Russia simply get going with it's policy of uprooting it's fringe nations and settling Russians there after it became uncool. Not claiming that what the soviet union did was in any way less terrible then it definetely was, just keep Tsarist russia out of it. Generalisations like that don't help anyone. Crimea was "freed" from Ottoman rule in 1783. The trail of tears was in 1850. The reasons why there currently cannot be peace between Russia and Ukraine do not lie hundres of years back, they lie 30 years back.
|
On October 14 2022 17:24 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2022 15:05 geod wrote:On October 14 2022 13:54 Sermokala wrote:On October 14 2022 12:39 geod wrote:On October 14 2022 11:51 KwarK wrote:On October 14 2022 10:47 geod wrote:One event at a specific time and specific location is enough for you to shit-talk their whole history of thousand years? Very well played indeed! 500 years ago Ivan IV embarked on a specific policy of “Russofication” to wipe out the Tatar culture of the defeated Khanate of Kazan. 200 years ago Cossacks were displaced and their lands were given to Russian settlers to break them up as a unified bloc. 150 years ago Crimean Tatars were ethnically cleansed as part of Alexander IIs state policy of Russofication. Where are evidences for other minority groups? I mean if you want to go through the history of Russian attempts to destroy the culture of the miniority populations under it you can just check out the Wikipedia page on it. The finns went through two periods of it near the end of the Russian empire and declared independence at the end of the first World War. It's much harder to find an example of a minority group Russia hasn't tried to genocide when it could. And now culture elimination has just been added into the mix and "wiki yourself", well said guys. (...)Claiming that Russia has hundreds of years of ethnic cleansing is like saying Germans have been violent warmongerers since the name German was incepted and then pointing to the Third Reich. (...)
The two are not alike at all in the context that the germany of today is a demonstrably different state, while the russia of today is demonstrably the same kind of state that the soviet union was. (which is the context of this very thread)
|
|
|
Yeah, then limit the comparison of Putins Russia to the Soviet Union, because that is the difference. Most countries stopped genociding the unwanted parts of their empire in the middle of the last century. The soviet union did not. Bringing up times where everybody was doing it is not a good way to make your point.
|
That's not what i said, at all. In the 19th century, every country was happily murdering the unwanted of their population. The Russians might be most documented, because they did it to european populations, but the british were raiding and murdering african nations until 1900 because they could.
|
On October 14 2022 18:29 Broetchenholer wrote:
Yeah, then limit the comparison of Putins Russia to the Soviet Union, because that is the difference. Most countries stopped genociding the unwanted parts of their empire in the middle of the last century. The soviet union did not. Bringing up times where everybody was doing it is not a good way to make your point.
It is a good way to point out that what is happening now has been happening for centuries. It's not an isolated incident but an ongoing thing.
That is only reinforced by pointing out that most of the rest of the world stopped that behaviour long before now.
|
Russian Federation617 Posts
Don't have much time for personal replies, so I would give more general opinions on the discussions.
On the matter of ethinc cleansing - a lot of you make it sound like under Stalin there were Russian ubermenschen purging ethnic minorities in gaskammers to establish the superiority of Russian race... wait, that's from another country. On a serious note, Stalin's regime was equally opressive to everyone, regardless of their race or nationality. Holodomor was not only in Ukraine, but in fertile regions of Southern Russia and Trans-Volga as well. Russians were as much sent to Gulags as everyone else. Though horribly conducted deportations of the peoples who tried (Tatars, Chechens) or believed to try (Trans-Volga Germans) to support Nazi Germany did take place, that's true. And as Broetchenholer pointed out, discuss Tsarist Russia is pointless in this matter, since similar or even worse examples could be found in any European nation at time. The White Man's Burden and all that.
On the matter of attacks on power grid - yes, it didn't make sense to destroy the power grid back in 24 Feb, but in April-May, after withdrawal to South and East - it would be the most plausible target for the person who would want to genocide and submit Ukrainians, and there were plenty of missiles back then (hundreds of missiles were flying each month), and there are plenty still. Plus you don't need that many to destroy a power grid, there aren't that many large transformer substations and thermal power plants in Ukraine, and it's very easy to inflict critical damage upon them (and then strike again in a week or two so any repair efforts would be nullified). If US, as caring as they are for the civilians, did that on the country-wide scale each time they conducted a war since 1991 at least, why would genocidic Russia restrained itself from such measures?
On the matter of poverty and corruption in Russia - of course I agree that there is corruption in Russia among the elite, it's hard to do any at least remotely large business without certain shady agreements and connections, there is organized crime controlling some enterprises and so on. But I would argue against the notion that such corruption among the elites severely impacts regular person's day-to-day life. When one family in the village is working hard on their potato field, and the other is stealing what they gathered while the first one is went for dinner, instead of woking their ass off themselves (real case with my relatives) - is Putin responsible for that too? Or maybe it's lazyness and alcoholism of the latter family?
@Magic Powers, no the machine is not well-oiled but it is there and it's working, even if it's rusty. I used to think like you too, that all our problems are from corruption and negligence of our government, until I got into position of authority myself. And when you have to basically run around and beg people in your apartment building to come and give their signature because you need to fix fucking intercoms on the entrances about which they were complaining to you for months - I believe the problem here is not Putin either. And no, it's not separate case and it's not an exeption, it's a common thing. Many people in Russia don't want to do anything even if given the real opportunity to improve their lives, and if question isn't political and people stand up for it - they often can do things for the better, even if it's some big Moscow project, like this one
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/07/06/protests-shiyes-how-garbage-dump-galvanized-russias-civil-society-a66289
Which was eventually cancelled and the governor (the "10-percent" guy whom I talked about) was forced from his position for stirring up people too much.
And there is even more opportunities to do better at the local level. But Soviet belief that government should handle everything for the people, combined with 90's "you die today and I tomorrow" mentality often makes thing as they are. So the issue is much more complicated than you are trying to present with "evil Russian government is evil and every Russian beside them is so poor and opressed and would make wonders if not for their evil government". The government didn't come from planet Nibiru to rule Russia, after all.
Also as Broetchenholer pointed out, I'm quite happy with my life, and people around me are as well, even though most of them come from what you may call peasant or worker families (I'm one of the few who came from white-collar middle-class one, since my father worked in a different positions in one of the regions largest banks, up to the head of the department). As one of my friends, who was previously working as construction worker and then started his own small car spare parts delivery business (increasing his income like 3 times) - "you gotta work for it, man, and be smart about it".
I guess I won't be returning to this topic, since discussion of Al Jazeera articles against personal experience of living here is kinda pointless. Though if anyone is interested in Russian realities of the province, I would be happy to oblige.
Edit: interestingly enough that I'm basically translating the point that many Westerners have given here regarding the tourist ban discussion that people should held responsibility for their country and you disagree with me.
|
Germany565 Posts
On October 14 2022 18:50 Ardias wrote:
On the matter of attacks on power grid - yes, it didn't make sense to destroy the power grid back in 24 Feb, but in April-May, after withdrawal to South and East - it would be the most plausible target for the person who would want to genocide and submit Ukrainians, and there were plenty of missiles back then (hundreds of missiles were flying each month), and there are plenty still. Plus you don't need that many to destroy a power grid, there aren't that many large transformer substations and thermal power plants in Ukraine, and it's very easy to inflict critical damage upon them (and then strike again in a week or two so any repair efforts would be nullified). If US, as caring as they are for the civilians, did that on the country-wide scale each time they conducted a war since 1991 at least, why would genocidic Russia restrained itself from such measures?
To clarify, when I say I see the recent missile attacks as a clear attack on ukraines general population, I don't mean that russia is trying to kill off civilians. What I mean is that it is an attempt to break the will of the general population and tire out their will to resist. It does have military reasoning behind it, but it is one that most countries in the world would refrain from. Its also very different when applied in a war of attrition or more of a blitz campaign. I am confident that in recent history, the US did target civilian infrastructure to erode military capabilities and enable their operations, not to crush the spirit of the general population.
Before the allied bombings during ww2 get brought up: These are a perfect example of the exact thing I mean: Controversial even amongst the allies at the time and while you do get unapologetic people defending them, a reasonable person will admit that they were not okay in the form they were conducted. At least when they happened in europe, when it game to japan the same sentiment is not as present, but lets not get sidetracked into the depressing reasons for that.
The point is, most of the world and at least the western world disagrees with these kind of methods to break resistance and political will to fight, and I agree with that sentiment. Especially when they are not carried out by the country that is fighting for its survival, but rather by the aggressor. War is not the same, why it is fought matters when judging actions in my opinion.
|
On October 14 2022 16:47 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2022 10:47 geod wrote:One event at a specific time and specific location is enough for you to shit-talk their whole history of thousand years? Very well played indeed! It looks like you didn’t open the links. The first link, Population Transfer in the Soviet Union, describes mass deportation of numerous ethnic minorities and peoples living in occupied territories. Ukraine, Poland, Moldova, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia... and not only the Crimean Tatars but also Chechens, Koreans, and a dozen ethnic groups I’d never heard of until now. It quotes Khrushchev: Show nested quote + We refer to the mass deportations from their native places of whole nations... This deportation action was not dictated by any military considerations. Thus, already at the end of 1943, when there occurred a permanent breakthrough at the fronts... a decision was taken and executed concerning the deportation of all the Karachay from the lands on which they lived. In the same period, at the end of December 1943, the same lot befell whole population of the Autonomous Kalmyk Republic. In March all the Chechen and Ingush peoples were deported and the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Republic was liquidated. In April 1944, all Balkars were deported to faraway places from the territory of the Kalbino-Balkar Autonomous Republic and the Republic itself was renamed the Autonomous Kabardin Republic. I’ll grant you that that first link refers to events from one particular time period. If you’re genuinely curious about other time periods, other posters may have information to share, but it does appear that you’ve avoided reading the links with which you’ve already been furnished.
You guys clearly miss the point. I don't reject content of the links, I reject KwarK's claim:
"Mass deportations and relocations are how we get these large numbers of Russians in other people’s countries. The deliberate destruction of ethnic blocs was both Tsarist and Soviet policy. There is no historical basis for coexistence."
Those links state that the deportations are the "punishment" for "anti Soviet" behavior at the war time. Where did it say it's to put Russians there or nations didn't coexist?
|
What are you even arguing here? If 230k people are deported from the land and not allowed back there until 50 years later and then other people come in there and take the land that was just freed up, are you really arguing that none of that was done to allow Russians to colonize good land? Like, are you also arguing that deporting the native americans was to punish them for resisting the colonisation of their land, or to take the land that was freed up by deporting them? When was the last time that a country did atrocities and stated the true reason for them?
|
United States43456 Posts
There’s as much historical basis for peaceful coexistence of peoples within the former Russian Empire as there is within North America in the colonial era.
|
On October 14 2022 20:28 Broetchenholer wrote:
What are you even arguing here? If 230k people are deported from the land and not allowed back there until 50 years later and then other people come in there and take the land that was just freed up, are you really arguing that none of that was done to allow Russians to colonize good land? Like, are you also arguing that deporting the native americans was to punish them for resisting the colonisation of their land, or to take the land that was freed up by deporting them? When was the last time that a country did atrocities and stated the true reason for them?
I'm arguing that KwarK's claim is dump and he failed to provide any evidence for it (up to now). Is that hard to understand? Posting massive questions is not a correct way to help him either unfortunately 
|
On October 14 2022 19:14 Artesimo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2022 18:50 Ardias wrote:
On the matter of attacks on power grid - yes, it didn't make sense to destroy the power grid back in 24 Feb, but in April-May, after withdrawal to South and East - it would be the most plausible target for the person who would want to genocide and submit Ukrainians, and there were plenty of missiles back then (hundreds of missiles were flying each month), and there are plenty still. Plus you don't need that many to destroy a power grid, there aren't that many large transformer substations and thermal power plants in Ukraine, and it's very easy to inflict critical damage upon them (and then strike again in a week or two so any repair efforts would be nullified). If US, as caring as they are for the civilians, did that on the country-wide scale each time they conducted a war since 1991 at least, why would genocidic Russia restrained itself from such measures?
To clarify, when I say I see the recent missile attacks as a clear attack on ukraines general population, I don't mean that russia is trying to kill off civilians. What I mean is that it is an attempt to break the will of the general population and tire out their will to resist. It does have military reasoning behind it, but it is one that most countries in the world would refrain from. Its also very different when applied in a war of attrition or more of a blitz campaign. I am confident that in recent history, the US did target civilian infrastructure to erode military capabilities and enable their operations, not to crush the spirit of the general population. Before the allied bombings during ww2 get brought up: These are a perfect example of the exact thing I mean: Controversial even amongst the allies at the time and while you do get unapologetic people defending them, a reasonable person will admit that they were not okay in the form they were conducted. At least when they happened in europe, when it game to japan the same sentiment is not as present, but lets not get sidetracked into the depressing reasons for that. The point is, most of the world and at least the western world disagrees with these kind of methods to break resistance and political will to fight, and I agree with that sentiment. Especially when they are not carried out by the country that is fighting for its survival, but rather by the aggressor. War is not the same, why it is fought matters when judging actions in my opinion.
Your belief is just plain wrong unfortunately
By the end of the war, the Yugoslavs had killed 1,500[35] to 2,131 combatants,[36] while choosing to heavily target Kosovar Albanian civilians, with 8,676 killed or missing[36] and some 848,000 expelled from Kosovo.[37] The NATO bombing killed about 1,000 members of the Yugoslav security forces in addition to between 489 and 528 civilians. It destroyed or damaged bridges, industrial plants, hospitals, schools, cultural monuments, private businesses as well as barracks and military installations. In the days after the Yugoslav army withdrew, over 164,000 Serbs and 24,000 Roma left Kosovo. Many of the remaining non-Albanian civilians (as well as Albanians perceived as collaborators) were victims of abuse which included beatings, abductions, and murders.[38][39][40][41][42] After Kosovo and other Yugoslav Wars, Serbia became home to the highest number of refugees and IDPs (including Kosovo Serbs) in Europe.[43][44][45]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia
Ironically as you guys are so proud of your democratic system so each of you have to take spiritual responsability for that crime.
But it's not the case for Russian people as Putin is a crazy dictator, his decision doesn't represent the Russian people willing and interest as you always said.
Life is sometimes funny right?
|
When you kill 1000 soldiers and 500 civilians, the civilians were likely to be collateral damage.
When you kill 10k soldiers and 30k civilians it sounds like you were specifically targeting civilians.
"Civilians died" doesn't always mean "civilians were targeted". "Civilian buildings were destroyed" doesn't always mean "civilian infrastructure was targeted".
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
