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On September 01 2022 14:59 r00ty wrote:Here's a report about the Russian tourists traveling into Europe via Finland (Schengen), leaving their cars in Finland before flying on: + Show Spoiler + Those are not your average Russians and as was pointed out are the people who profit from the Putin regime the most.
I feel like after having seen both numbers, sources and anecdotes challenging this argument in this thread, you need to bring more to the table than a quick shot of a few nice cars in a parking lot. It is expected that there would be a shift to more richer travelers from russia, but overall, either russia has an absolute massive amount of rich people, or your average russian tourist is not what various people have claimed so far and really are just that: some average russians.
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On September 01 2022 16:00 Artesimo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2022 14:59 r00ty wrote:Here's a report about the Russian tourists traveling into Europe via Finland (Schengen), leaving their cars in Finland before flying on: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvlJLGJwEI Those are not your average Russians and as was pointed out are the people who profit from the Putin regime the most. I feel like after having seen both numbers, sources and anecdotes challenging this argument in this thread, you need to bring more to the table than a quick shot of a few nice cars in a parking lot. It is expected that there would be a shift to more richer travelers from russia, but overall, either russia has an absolute massive amount of rich people, or your average russian tourist is not what various people have claimed so far and really are just that: some average russians.
It's a bit populistic and anecdotal yes, but considering the average income of Russians i'll stand by what i said, it's more than unlikely that your average Russian factory worker is travelling through Europe at the moment.
If you want sources and hard evidence of the tourists financial and social status that's a dead end, because it would have to be provided by Russia and could not be trusted.
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On September 01 2022 08:47 RenSC2 wrote:
Rather than a travel ban, why not implement a tax on Russian tourists when they obtain their travel visa? All proceeds go to a defense of Ukraine fund.
That way Russian tourists would actually be contributing to an anti-Putin cause. It would force Putin to be the one to stop vacations… or let his own people fund the killing of Putin’s invaders in Ukraine.
Was think something similar. Don't do a general ban but somehow ease the flood the bordering countries are facing.
If it would be communicated that traveling to Europe will directly contribute to UA, Kremlin might ban travel to EU themselves...
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On September 01 2022 18:16 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2022 08:47 RenSC2 wrote:
Rather than a travel ban, why not implement a tax on Russian tourists when they obtain their travel visa? All proceeds go to a defense of Ukraine fund.
That way Russian tourists would actually be contributing to an anti-Putin cause. It would force Putin to be the one to stop vacations… or let his own people fund the killing of Putin’s invaders in Ukraine. Was think something similar. Don't do a general ban but somehow ease the flood the bordering countries are facing. If it would be communicated that traveling to Europe will directly contribute to UA, Kremlin might ban travel to EU themselves...
Oh that is genius. Have some sort of fee to be granted a tourist visa that will directly be sent to Ukraine.
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Making people pay extra for something because they're Russian sounds wrong. The ban is supposed to put uhh... moral pressure on the Russian society, while this idea can be seen as an attempt to extort money from Russians. The person paying for the visa won't care about what the EU will do with his fee.
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On September 01 2022 14:59 r00ty wrote:I have an issue with continuously sending weapons to a war we don't fight ourselves in, before having used the full extent of possible sanctions, because we don't want to hurt our lord and saviour, the economy, too much. My country being the prime example. I support sending more weapons too, anything that ends this war, but there's so much more that could be done: Full travel ban, asset forfeiture, hard embargos, deport all Russian diplomats (peace talks with Putin aren't possible anyway, as politicians said multiple times). Here's a report about the Russian tourists traveling into Europe via Finland (Schengen), leaving their cars in Finland before flying on: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvlJLGJwEI Those are not your average Russians and as was pointed out are the people who profit from the Putin regime the most.
I think you need to think it in a way where you always need to make it look that if the regime change, you do not need to rebuild from zero everything. It is always tempting to go ultimate and think that if we did everything faster and stronger it would have worked.
I first though that way too, but I can see that the way western country have supported Ukraine has been smarter than the way I would have done during the beginning of the conflict.
I have a friend in the army specializing in battle simulation and he told me exactly what would happens and all this was after a week of conflict.
He explained that they will send ton of crap equipment towards Kiev to force panic and block troops and units in the capital. Then they would focus on the south, and that the front will form a cold boundary at the Dnipr River.
The thing he didn't expect at the beginning of the conflict was that the Russian would try to cross the river and get trapped on the otherside. While we are talking about 20k man, in the mind of Putin, that will make little difference and the conflict will probably freeze with defensive position on both sides of the river and this can go for years unless something change within Russia and that is not part of the simulation.
I think things are in motion within Russia. Silent signals of Chaos within leadership usually are enough to provoke a collapse. Maybe Russians will be faster to realize their are getting boiled by themselves this time around? who knows...
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On September 01 2022 20:15 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2022 14:59 r00ty wrote:I have an issue with continuously sending weapons to a war we don't fight ourselves in, before having used the full extent of possible sanctions, because we don't want to hurt our lord and saviour, the economy, too much. My country being the prime example. I support sending more weapons too, anything that ends this war, but there's so much more that could be done: Full travel ban, asset forfeiture, hard embargos, deport all Russian diplomats (peace talks with Putin aren't possible anyway, as politicians said multiple times). Here's a report about the Russian tourists traveling into Europe via Finland (Schengen), leaving their cars in Finland before flying on: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvlJLGJwEI Those are not your average Russians and as was pointed out are the people who profit from the Putin regime the most. I think you need to think it in a way where you always need to make it look that if the regime change, you do not need to rebuild from zero everything. It is always tempting to go ultimate and think that if we did everything faster and stronger it would have worked. I first though that way too, but I can see that the way western country have supported Ukraine has been smarter than the way I would have done during the beginning of the conflict. I have a friend in the army specializing in battle simulation and he told me exactly what would happens and all this was after a week of conflict. He explained that they will send ton of crap equipment towards Kiev to force panic and block troops and units in the capital. Then they would focus on the south, and that the front will form a cold boundary at the Dnipr River. The thing he didn't expect at the beginning of the conflict was that the Russian would try to cross the river and get trapped on the otherside. While we are talking about 20k man, in the mind of Putin, that will make little difference and the conflict will probably freeze with defensive position on both sides of the river and this can go for years unless something change within Russia and that is not part of the simulation. I think things are in motion within Russia. Silent signals of Chaos within leadership usually are enough to provoke a collapse. Maybe Russians will be faster to realize their are getting boiled by themselves this time around? who knows...
Absolutely agree with your friend. I was baffled when it looked like they tried to overwhelm all of Ukraine in the beginning and after that failed i expected a Djnepr frontline for god knows how long. From my humble armchair point of view the pro-Russian support from inside Ukraine was way overestimated by the attacker and help from the west, first of all former soviet states, came a lot quicker than expected.
Does your friend have an opinion on the strength and ability the Russian armed forces displayed so far? When i was in the army we we're taught to fear them, let me tell you that fear is completely gone. Seriously, the US could half-ass a more competent invasion anywhere in the world than what Russia fumbled together in Ukraine, its neighbour, so far.
I also don't want to push the Russian regime into a corner where someone might be inclined to push a certain button, but what are you gonna do? It's not enough so far and i'd prefer the Russian upper class to feel some pain, compared to just more effectively killing those poor boys who have to fight for them.
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WSJ reporter was able to interview some wounded Ukrainian soldiers that were wounded taking park in the push towards Kherson.
Ukrainian army units pushing toward Kherson in the south are retaking ground held for months by Russia’s invading troops amid extremely fierce fighting, according to Ukrainian soldiers taking part in the offensive.
Russian soldiers seemed well-equipped and were putting up stiff resistance, the Ukrainians said.
“They’re throwing everything against us,” said a 22-year-old Ukrainian soldier who said Russians were fighting with artillery, tanks, helicopters and mortars. “They have a lot of equipment but few men.”
Interviews with eight soldiers who took part in fighting—and were being treated for injuries at a hospital behind the front lines—offered the most detailed on-the-ground picture yet from an offensive that Ukraine hopes will help it seize the initiative in the conflict and show its Western backers, and its own people, that its military can take on Moscow’s army and win.
Ukrainian officials are saying little publicly about the offensive, citing the need for secrecy in military operations.
The Pentagon’s assessment, given at a briefing by its spokesman Wednesday, appeared to support the soldiers’ cautious optimism.
“We are aware of Ukrainian military operations that have made some forward movement, and in some cases in the Kherson region we are aware of Russian units falling back,” Air Force Brig. Gen. Patrick Ryder told reporters.
The soldiers and medics at a hospital in southern Ukraine agreed to speak on condition that their identities and location wouldn’t be revealed. All took part in the offensive that began Monday with the aim of seizing the initiative in the war.
The attacks Monday at several points along the front lines came after weeks of softening up Russian forces with long-range rocket attacks.
Ukraine’s long-awaited thrust in the south is advancing into territory that the Russians occupied in the early days of their invasion, according to soldiers who took part in fighting. But it is a hard slog against a well-equipped enemy, they said.
Ivan, a 32-year-old private, said his unit’s task was simple: “Go in, f—them up, retake what’s ours.”
He said the offensive started well for his unit, which seized a village from the Russians in the early hours of fighting.
But that same day, Monday, he wound up in hospital with a concussion after a teammate fired a rocket launcher a few steps from where he stood.
“The guys are in a fighting mood,” said Ivan, a former construction worker from southwest Ukraine. “They’re moving forward.”
Some Russian troops are fleeing their positions, he said, abandoning equipment and booby-trapping the bodies of dead comrades they leave behind. Ivan showed footage that he said was sent to him by comrades on the front line, appearing to show dead Russian soldiers on the outskirts of a village that he said was seized by Ukrainian forces on Tuesday.
Ivan said Ukrainian forces had thrust toward Kherson, the regional capital, and were trying to clear villages along the way.
Russian military bloggers who are close to the country’s Defense Ministry have noted another Ukrainian advance, across the Inhulets River to the northeast of Kherson. The Russian Defense Ministry has described Ukraine’s offensive as a failure.
“We’re advancing in some areas and being battered in others,” said Pavlo, a 22-year-old soldier who was concussed in a battle on Tuesday and says he now hears a sound akin to a broken television in his head.
The head of the intensive-care unit where some of the soldiers were being treated said the military warned him of the offensive a week in advance, spurring hopes of imminent victories.
“But when they started bringing in such a large number of wounded, then, honestly, I felt sorry for them and I started wondering if this was worth doing at such a cost,” said the doctor. “I don’t know. There’s no right answer here.”
Ukrainian officials and military analysts have said that Ukrainian losses, even if the offensive is successful, could be high as they are assaulting an entrenched enemy with significant firepower that can quickly chew up troops.
At the intensive-care unit, six servicemen in comas occupied beds in two adjoining wards separated by a thin wall. In one, doctors were fighting to save the life of a 47-year-old armor crewman badly injured when his tank was hit Tuesday, his chest heaving as surgeons performed a tracheotomy in a bid to restore his breathing.
One Ukrainian soldier lay in his bed clutching the Russian bullet that had just been plucked from his body after traveling through his left shoulder and exiting through his pelvis. He was shot as he lay on the ground seeking cover from a Russian attack in a village.
“We had a feeling that we’d be going into battle, that we were planning something big,” the 30-year-old soldier, Petro, said of the days that preceded the offensive as he struggled to speak under the influence of heavy anesthesia. “We all hope the war ends as soon as possible.”
The doctor said he spends some nights on a small couch in his office after more than half his staff stopped coming to work following a Russian rocket attack on the hospital in August. He said he felt on the verge of a breakdown as he has dealt with more soldiers than at any time since the first weeks of the war.
Faced with the influx, doctors are fighting to save the lives of those in critical condition before sending them on to better-equipped hospitals once they are stable.
The head of the intensive-care unit said that on Monday he took in a 27-year-old soldier with a broken leg, concussion, torn lung and a ruptured liver, stomach, colon and bowel. “Head, chest, limbs, stomach, concussions, they come with all kinds of injuries,” he said. “The effect of an explosion damages everything.”
But among the injured, the doctor said he was most struck by their desire to continue fighting as soon as they are physically able.
Ivan, the 32-year-old private, said his concussion on Monday was his third since he was mobilized at the start of Russia’s invasion, and it was only because his commander ordered him evacuated that he ended up at the hospital.
“I want to get back to our guys,” he said, playing down his injuries despite struggling to hear. “I wanted to return the moment I left.”
Source
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On September 01 2022 21:17 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2022 20:15 0x64 wrote:On September 01 2022 14:59 r00ty wrote:I have an issue with continuously sending weapons to a war we don't fight ourselves in, before having used the full extent of possible sanctions, because we don't want to hurt our lord and saviour, the economy, too much. My country being the prime example. I support sending more weapons too, anything that ends this war, but there's so much more that could be done: Full travel ban, asset forfeiture, hard embargos, deport all Russian diplomats (peace talks with Putin aren't possible anyway, as politicians said multiple times). Here's a report about the Russian tourists traveling into Europe via Finland (Schengen), leaving their cars in Finland before flying on: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvlJLGJwEI Those are not your average Russians and as was pointed out are the people who profit from the Putin regime the most. I think you need to think it in a way where you always need to make it look that if the regime change, you do not need to rebuild from zero everything. It is always tempting to go ultimate and think that if we did everything faster and stronger it would have worked. I first though that way too, but I can see that the way western country have supported Ukraine has been smarter than the way I would have done during the beginning of the conflict. I have a friend in the army specializing in battle simulation and he told me exactly what would happens and all this was after a week of conflict. He explained that they will send ton of crap equipment towards Kiev to force panic and block troops and units in the capital. Then they would focus on the south, and that the front will form a cold boundary at the Dnipr River. The thing he didn't expect at the beginning of the conflict was that the Russian would try to cross the river and get trapped on the otherside. While we are talking about 20k man, in the mind of Putin, that will make little difference and the conflict will probably freeze with defensive position on both sides of the river and this can go for years unless something change within Russia and that is not part of the simulation. I think things are in motion within Russia. Silent signals of Chaos within leadership usually are enough to provoke a collapse. Maybe Russians will be faster to realize their are getting boiled by themselves this time around? who knows... Absolutely agree with your friend. I was baffled when it looked like they tried to overwhelm all of Ukraine in the beginning and after that failed i expected a Djnepr frontline for god knows how long. From my humble armchair point of view the pro-Russian support from inside Ukraine was way overestimated by the attacker and help from the west, first of all former soviet states, came a lot quicker than expected. Does your friend have an opinion on the strength and ability the Russian armed forces displayed so far? When i was in the army we we're taught to fear them, let me tell you that fear is completely gone. Seriously, the US could half-ass a more competent invasion anywhere in the world than what Russia fumbled together in Ukraine, its neighbour, so far. I also don't want to push the Russian regime into a corner where someone might be inclined to push a certain button, but what are you gonna do? It's not enough so far and i'd prefer the Russian upper class to feel some pain, compared to just more effectively killing those poor boys who have to fight for them.
I haven't talked about this subject with him since then, but as for the conflict end, he said that they would try to grab some land and declare their objective fulfilled.
I think it is useless to fear the atomic button, situation where Putin wants to use it, is one where he wants to punish the whole world and all his goons wants that as well. The only scenario that happen is if we start invading Russians territory.
For Russia, even if you have 3000 nukes, sure you can destroy countries, capitals, economy... but you know also that Russia and Russians cease to exist that same seconds. I wonder what are the interception capability of western nations. Putin has been crying about USA deploying such anti-missile tech so we can imagine he always knew he will need them in his hand.
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Do you know you can donate money to UA and shitpost at the same time? Try signmyrocket.com where the amount you donate determines which prize you get: you can get a message scrawled on an outgoing artillery shell, sign a VOG 17 dropped from a drone and get the video, or (the current special offer of only 30k) sign a SU-24 jet.
I tested it, it took a bit more than a week, but I received a picture with my personal message scrawled on the appropriate equipment.
The money goes to an NGO which provides soldiers with whatever they need: armor, scopes, cars, even heaters (how do you call burzuiki?) and deliver directly to the front lines.
Are the meme wars real? If you’re on the receiving end of some 203mm artillery rounds stenciled with references to internet culture, then yes, very much so. There’s at least one Ukrainian artillery battery that is now covering its equipment, such as the Russian-built 2S7 Pion self-propelled artillery cannon, in memes. This one Pion has “Super Bonker 9000,” written on the barrel, kind of a “Boaty McBoatface”-style approach to naming military equipment and keeping with the greatest traditions of the internet, where everything seems to be gleefully stupid. The chassis has been covered in pictures of smiling Shiba Inu dogs, which is a symbol of an internet phenomenon known as the “ North Atlantic Fellas Organization,” a playful spin on the NATO acronym. The group can best be described as a loose collection of internet shitposters fighting Russian disinformation and raising money for the Ukrainian war effort. So now, if you go to – and yes, this internet domain name was somehow not already taken – signmyrocket.com, you can have your own messages painted on some munitions heading towards the Russian front lines. One part artillery, one part memes. This particular fundraising campaign was started by a Ukrainian student named Anton Sokolenko. Chip in a few dollars to write something on some munitions, and the money will go towards buying things Ukrainian soldiers need. Soon enough, you have some self-propelled artillery that is bringing internet memes into terrestrial form. It’s similar to something like the Telegram account artillery_text, where you can donate money along with having a personal message written on an artillery shell. Source
P.S. Thanks for the article StealthBlue!
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On September 01 2022 16:30 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2022 16:00 Artesimo wrote:On September 01 2022 14:59 r00ty wrote:Here's a report about the Russian tourists traveling into Europe via Finland (Schengen), leaving their cars in Finland before flying on: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvlJLGJwEI Those are not your average Russians and as was pointed out are the people who profit from the Putin regime the most. I feel like after having seen both numbers, sources and anecdotes challenging this argument in this thread, you need to bring more to the table than a quick shot of a few nice cars in a parking lot. It is expected that there would be a shift to more richer travelers from russia, but overall, either russia has an absolute massive amount of rich people, or your average russian tourist is not what various people have claimed so far and really are just that: some average russians. It's a bit populistic and anecdotal yes, but considering the average income of Russians i'll stand by what i said, it's more than unlikely that your average Russian factory worker is travelling through Europe at the moment. If you want sources and hard evidence of the tourists financial and social status that's a dead end, because it would have to be provided by Russia and could not be trusted.
Incomes in Russia differ a lot by regions and industry. In Moscow (with the population of ~12.5 mln people) the average salary is ~2k euro per month, and the taxes and mandatory spendings are much lower than in the Western Europe. Salaries in range of 3-6k euro/month are common among IT or finance specialists, middle managers, and many other professions; you may check this at hh.ru - the largest russian headhunting website. Contrary to the previous discussion, you won't usually encounter 'Putin's retainers' among russian tourists - as policemen, FSB personnel and some others are forbidden from visiting Western countries by internal legislatory
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On September 01 2022 22:36 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2022 16:30 r00ty wrote:On September 01 2022 16:00 Artesimo wrote:On September 01 2022 14:59 r00ty wrote:Here's a report about the Russian tourists traveling into Europe via Finland (Schengen), leaving their cars in Finland before flying on: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvlJLGJwEI Those are not your average Russians and as was pointed out are the people who profit from the Putin regime the most. I feel like after having seen both numbers, sources and anecdotes challenging this argument in this thread, you need to bring more to the table than a quick shot of a few nice cars in a parking lot. It is expected that there would be a shift to more richer travelers from russia, but overall, either russia has an absolute massive amount of rich people, or your average russian tourist is not what various people have claimed so far and really are just that: some average russians. It's a bit populistic and anecdotal yes, but considering the average income of Russians i'll stand by what i said, it's more than unlikely that your average Russian factory worker is travelling through Europe at the moment. If you want sources and hard evidence of the tourists financial and social status that's a dead end, because it would have to be provided by Russia and could not be trusted. Incomes in Russia differ a lot by regions and industry. In Moscow (with the population of ~12.5 mln people) the average salary is ~2k euro per month, and the taxes and mandatory spendings are much lower than in the Western Europe. Salaries in range of 3-6k euro/month are common among IT or finance specialists, middle managers, and many other professions; you may check this at hh.ru - the largest russian headhunting website. Contrary to the previous discussion, you won't usually encounter 'Putin's retainers' among russian tourists - as policemen, FSB personnel and some others are forbidden from visiting Western countries by internal legislatory
Thanks, but I meant statistics about the tourists entering and travelling the EU at the moment. I'm aware of the differences in income regionally and did not mean to be derogatory. FSB is definitely allowed to leave when on the job though.
The point is still, i'd rather saction and ban heavily so the middle and upper class feels it instantly, than throwing weapons at the conflict. Which i'm also fine with, anything necessary to end the war. Please mind the support is pretty lackluster so far. Putin fumbled and there's nothing to gain here anymore.
Edit: Ravil Maganov, Lukoil chairman who had criticised the invasion of Ukraine before, tragically "fell out" of his window in a Moscow hospital. + Show Spoiler +
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On September 02 2022 00:59 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2022 22:36 a_ch wrote:On September 01 2022 16:30 r00ty wrote:On September 01 2022 16:00 Artesimo wrote:On September 01 2022 14:59 r00ty wrote:Here's a report about the Russian tourists traveling into Europe via Finland (Schengen), leaving their cars in Finland before flying on: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvlJLGJwEI Those are not your average Russians and as was pointed out are the people who profit from the Putin regime the most. I feel like after having seen both numbers, sources and anecdotes challenging this argument in this thread, you need to bring more to the table than a quick shot of a few nice cars in a parking lot. It is expected that there would be a shift to more richer travelers from russia, but overall, either russia has an absolute massive amount of rich people, or your average russian tourist is not what various people have claimed so far and really are just that: some average russians. It's a bit populistic and anecdotal yes, but considering the average income of Russians i'll stand by what i said, it's more than unlikely that your average Russian factory worker is travelling through Europe at the moment. If you want sources and hard evidence of the tourists financial and social status that's a dead end, because it would have to be provided by Russia and could not be trusted. Incomes in Russia differ a lot by regions and industry. In Moscow (with the population of ~12.5 mln people) the average salary is ~2k euro per month, and the taxes and mandatory spendings are much lower than in the Western Europe. Salaries in range of 3-6k euro/month are common among IT or finance specialists, middle managers, and many other professions; you may check this at hh.ru - the largest russian headhunting website. Contrary to the previous discussion, you won't usually encounter 'Putin's retainers' among russian tourists - as policemen, FSB personnel and some others are forbidden from visiting Western countries by internal legislatory Thanks, but I meant statistics about the tourists entering and travelling the EU at the moment. I'm aware of the differences in income regionally and did not mean to be derogatory. FSB is definitely allowed to leave when on the job though. The point is still, i'd rather saction and ban heavily so the middle and upper class feels it instantly, than throwing weapons at the conflict. Which i'm also fine with, anything necessary to end the war. Please mind the support is pretty lackluster so far. Putin fumbled and there's nothing to gain here anymore. Edit: Ravil Maganov, Lukoil chairman who had criticised the invasion of Ukraine before, tragically "fell out" of his window in a Moscow hospital. + Show Spoiler +
-about the cars in Helsinki airport - my guess is this is due to conveniency and expensiveness of the route through Finland. An average tourist is certainly less rich than those guys, but most popular touristic routes to Europe currently are through Turkey or Kazakhstan. I myself travelled to Germany this June - and have used a much longer, but cheaper way mostly by bus.
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No state funeral for gobachev nor will putin attend what he does get. Absolutely classless and shows such a lack of dignity that I'm not surprised at all knowing the people who like him.
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On September 02 2022 02:36 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2022 00:59 r00ty wrote:On September 01 2022 22:36 a_ch wrote:On September 01 2022 16:30 r00ty wrote:On September 01 2022 16:00 Artesimo wrote:On September 01 2022 14:59 r00ty wrote:Here's a report about the Russian tourists traveling into Europe via Finland (Schengen), leaving their cars in Finland before flying on: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvlJLGJwEI Those are not your average Russians and as was pointed out are the people who profit from the Putin regime the most. I feel like after having seen both numbers, sources and anecdotes challenging this argument in this thread, you need to bring more to the table than a quick shot of a few nice cars in a parking lot. It is expected that there would be a shift to more richer travelers from russia, but overall, either russia has an absolute massive amount of rich people, or your average russian tourist is not what various people have claimed so far and really are just that: some average russians. It's a bit populistic and anecdotal yes, but considering the average income of Russians i'll stand by what i said, it's more than unlikely that your average Russian factory worker is travelling through Europe at the moment. If you want sources and hard evidence of the tourists financial and social status that's a dead end, because it would have to be provided by Russia and could not be trusted. Incomes in Russia differ a lot by regions and industry. In Moscow (with the population of ~12.5 mln people) the average salary is ~2k euro per month, and the taxes and mandatory spendings are much lower than in the Western Europe. Salaries in range of 3-6k euro/month are common among IT or finance specialists, middle managers, and many other professions; you may check this at hh.ru - the largest russian headhunting website. Contrary to the previous discussion, you won't usually encounter 'Putin's retainers' among russian tourists - as policemen, FSB personnel and some others are forbidden from visiting Western countries by internal legislatory Thanks, but I meant statistics about the tourists entering and travelling the EU at the moment. I'm aware of the differences in income regionally and did not mean to be derogatory. FSB is definitely allowed to leave when on the job though. The point is still, i'd rather saction and ban heavily so the middle and upper class feels it instantly, than throwing weapons at the conflict. Which i'm also fine with, anything necessary to end the war. Please mind the support is pretty lackluster so far. Putin fumbled and there's nothing to gain here anymore. Edit: Ravil Maganov, Lukoil chairman who had criticised the invasion of Ukraine before, tragically "fell out" of his window in a Moscow hospital. + Show Spoiler + -about the cars in Helsinki airport - my guess is this is due to conveniency and expensiveness of the route through Finland. An average tourist is certainly less rich than those guys, but most popular touristic routes to Europe currently are through Turkey or Kazakhstan. I myself travelled to Germany this June - and have used a much longer, but cheaper way mostly by bus.
St Petersburg is not that far from Helsinki and it is one of the most affluent cities. There is probably always an overrepresentation of wealthier Russian tourists here just because of proximity to the better off regions.
The whole wider question of tourism visa bans feels a bit like outrage politics. I do have the feeling, too, that it is wrong to let Russian people continue their life as close to normal as possible while their country is attacking a neighbour without a reason or justification, irrevocably changing the lives of millions of Ukrainians. At the same time it feels like if Russian people are so far accepting/ignoring/living with whatever Putler comes up with, taking the holidays away from the middle class isn't the one thing that pushes them over to the opposition.
What I'm trying to say is that if we think of tourist visa bans as something else than purely punitive action, or even more cynically, just cathartic, I think we are fooling ourselves. I'm very doubtful of any effects beyond the impacts on tourism and hospitality industries, but in this case the ban might still be completely justifiable, even if it is just a big signal of disapproval.
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Actually there might be an algorithm to predict the fall of Putin.
We need to correlate how often a random Russian shows support and what is the most common way to support Putin.
You should be able to observe a statistical change in that which at a certain threshold will cause army or nation to flip.
Which do you think flips first?
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On September 02 2022 05:44 Sermokala wrote:
No state funeral for gobachev nor will putin attend what he does get. Absolutely classless and shows such a lack of dignity that I'm not surprised at all knowing the people who like him.
Afaik, he's far more popular in the west than at home as he was perceived as a traitor and the undertaker of the soviet union by many Russians. I don't think this is an act of spite because of recent events, a state funeral just wasn't planned for him.
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Gorbachev was a failure of a leader.
He failed in his vision to open up the Soviet Union, instead destroying the union and bringing anarchy to Russia. He failed in the end to change the Communist Party, becoming sidelined by a hardliners coup and the ambitions of Yeltsin.
Yes he ended the Cold War. But that was a result of his own failure to control anything and thus the resulting defeat of the Soviet Union.
Was it good for the West, led by America? Yes, and that is why he is remembered fondly in the West.
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Norway28794 Posts
It's not really just a question of 'good for the west' though, more that people in the west largely think that some of the values Gorbachev embodied are positive values, everywhere.
It's pretty irrelevant to me, personally, whether Baltic countries are part of the soviet union or not, but I still recognize it as positive that they've been able to achieve independence.
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EPT
