EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 202
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Silvanel
Poland4742 Posts
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farvacola
United States18855 Posts
On September 02 2022 16:42 gobbledydook wrote: Gorbachev was a failure of a leader. He failed in his vision to open up the Soviet Union, instead destroying the union and bringing anarchy to Russia. He failed in the end to change the Communist Party, becoming sidelined by a hardliners coup and the ambitions of Yeltsin. Yes he ended the Cold War. But that was a result of his own failure to control anything and thus the resulting defeat of the Soviet Union. Was it good for the West, led by America? Yes, and that is why he is remembered fondly in the West. Funny that in identifying what is supposedly a solely Western view, you espouse one yourself. I assure you, many people who live in former Soviet nations (and their neighbors) identify with or view positively what Gorbachev did and stood for. | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
On September 02 2022 16:42 gobbledydook wrote: Gorbachev was a failure of a leader. He failed in his vision to open up the Soviet Union, instead destroying the union and bringing anarchy to Russia. He failed in the end to change the Communist Party, becoming sidelined by a hardliners coup and the ambitions of Yeltsin. Yes he ended the Cold War. But that was a result of his own failure to control anything and thus the resulting defeat of the Soviet Union. Was it good for the West, led by America? Yes, and that is why he is remembered fondly in the West. Hello from Romania. I don't understand what you mean by "failure as a leader". The entire USSR was a big failure by the time he became its leader (cernobyl indicent and their failed go to moon space program only to name a few). Moreover, I don't think there is a eastern and a western point of view. To have the greatest genetician/botnist in the entire freaking world imprisoned and have him die of starvation is only one of what the great USSR was capable of. This is not west point of view. It is the sane vs insane. Yuri Kondratyuk - probably most visionary aerospace engineer (gulag) Nikolai Vavilov - best botanist in the modern age. (death by starvation) Lev Landau - Nobel Prize winning physicist. (gulag) here, only a few names, the list can go on until the end of the world. I also think if you have a closed economy controlled tightly by the state, and want to transition to free market, it will come with some painful moments, change is difficult. That I am pretty sure nobody in the world can mitigate. I am wondering what you base your claims on? Imagine having a failed state and blame it on the leader that wanted to fix this illusory wishful thinking perfect state that never existed. p.s. you knew when stalin took the best farmers in the empire and forcefuly moved them in factories? you know what happened? Around 8 milion people died of starvation because only retards remained in agriculture and the cream of the crop were moved from houses into small 2 bedroom apartments and forced to work in factories. oh the great great country you were russian empire | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4742 Posts
Of course, for Russians giving up land without a fight amounts to treason, so they view him as traitor. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Silvanel
Poland4742 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9284 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
edit: No idea if this is the 5th confirmed British nation killed in Ukraine...? | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
Also on the the regular there should be an asterisk for the army being conscription based, so regular expenditure is likely (a lot) lower than it would be for maintaining a standing army with similar capabilities. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On September 02 2022 20:19 farvacola wrote: Funny that in identifying what is supposedly a solely Western view, you espouse one yourself. I assure you, many people who live in former Soviet nations (and their neighbors) identify with or view positively what Gorbachev did and stood for. EDIT: I think i can't say the slashed, because i can't possibly know. But my opinion of Gorbachev still stands on the second part of the sentence. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On September 03 2022 03:52 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The sister of the British man has confirmed he has been killed in fighting near Kharkiv, was operation as a Medic apparently. Don't believe the Foreign office has yet confirmed. Still confusion of when he was killed, either yesterday or the 31st. https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1565682616984109057 edit: No idea if this is the 5th confirmed British nation killed in Ukraine...? Why is this important? Or more important from the other deads Ukranian or not? I have a co-worker who has a friend that went to volunteer in Ukraine, a couple of days ago he got into an actual firefight and a couple of guys from his platoon "blew up" by mortar. Apparently that's when he realized war is really fucked up... Well it is. People actually die.  | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria837 Posts
On September 02 2022 23:41 Silvanel wrote: Gorbachev can be viewed as a bad leader because he wanted to save the Soviet Union and failed at that. On the other hand, he presided over the dissolution of USSR which went relatively peaceful. Had someone different be in his position, Eastern Europe might have ended ten times worse than the Balkans. He wasn't a murderous thug (as some previous Soviet leaders) and kept thugs away from power. Thanks to that it all ended rather well. Of course, for Russians giving up land without a fight amounts to treason, so they view him as traitor. Yep, I agree with that. Gorbachev most likely wanted to continue USSR but in a modernised way, a bit more open to the world like modern China. Instead, his reforms hastened USSR collapse which was inevitable in my opinion. Luckily for us in Eastern Europe he wasn't a thug like Silvanel said, so it's a lucky timing. Had it been Putin in charge, it would have been Iron Curtain still going on or blood bath. Either way, it'd not be a Gorbachev story without some Reagan in the mix. Enjoy! + Show Spoiler + On another note, here is an interview with some Russians regarding tourist visa ban. + Show Spoiler + Not surprisingly, their opinion coincides with mine that I wrote a few pages back that this ban won't achieve anything. Nada, zilch, zero. Instead, it'll just become rally "round the flag" as they say, so it'll be in favour of Kremlin. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5761 Posts
On September 03 2022 06:39 SC-Shield wrote: Yep, I agree with that. Gorbachev most likely wanted to continue USSR but in a modernised way, a bit more open to the world like modern China. Instead, his reforms hastened USSR collapse which was inevitable in my opinion. Luckily for us in Eastern Europe he wasn't a thug like Silvanel said, so it's a lucky timing. Had it been Putin in charge, it would have been Iron Curtain still going on or blood bath. On another note, here is an interview with some Russians regarding tourist visa ban. + Show Spoiler + https://youtu.be/eumjhyPE3-U Not surprisingly, their opinion coincides with mine that I wrote a few pages back that this ban won't achieve anything. Nada, zilch, zero. Instead, it'll just become rally "round the flag" as they say, so it'll be in favour of Kremlin. But I heard that it's Putin's war, that Russians have no power and that they're apolitical. If their support is irrelevant, what does it matter whether they rally around the flag (for an absolutely stupid reason at that)? | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria837 Posts
On September 03 2022 06:44 maybenexttime wrote: But I heard that it's Putin's war, that Russians have no power and that they're apolitical. If their support is irrelevant, what does it matter whether they rally around the flag (for an absolutely stupid reason at that)? I'm not in a position to say if their support is relevant or not. However, I'm absolutely certain that Kremlin would use this to tell their citizens, "I told you they're against us, it's russophobia". If Kremlin thugs can use some event to run their propaganda, they absolutely will. Point is this ban was supposed to turn Russians against Putin. I say this is a very weak strategy to do so. Sanctions are way more effective than some tourist ban even if Kremlin tries to project that they are "immune to sanctions". They're not, Russians were poor in the past, they're poor after sanctions and there is no significant change other than being slightly poorer but that's beside the point. The people that this EU ban actually affects are usually people with money and with generally good opinion of EU and democracy, so it was pointless. If you watch the video, you can hear some of them say that Soviet style grandmas don't go to west anyway. I'm not saying let's forgive Russians. I'm far from that. I just think this tourist ban won't help very much, EU leaders need to think of a better plan than that. That's all. | ||
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Artesimo
Germany567 Posts
On September 03 2022 06:44 maybenexttime wrote: But I heard that it's Putin's war, that Russians have no power and that they're apolitical. If their support is irrelevant, what does it matter whether they rally around the flag (for an absolutely stupid reason at that)? Because it reduces the chances of this ever changing, can improve russias position. More volunteers, and if you think that line through all the way to the end, you arrive at a place where mobilisation might be possible. Just to make sure I am not getting misrepresented again, I am not saying that the travel ban will be solely responsible for more support for russias war efforts, but its really not hard to come up with reasons why increased support for putin / more unity against the west is not something we would want unless it gains us something in return. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On September 03 2022 07:01 Artesimo wrote: Because it reduces the chances of this ever changing, can improve russias position. More volunteers, and if you think that line through all the way to the end, you arrive at a place where mobilisation might be possible. Just to make sure I am not getting misrepresented again, I am not saying that the travel ban will be solely responsible for more support for russias war efforts, but its really not hard to come up with reasons why increased support for putin / more unity against the west is not something we would want unless it gains us something in return. I am curious how would you then reduce the support of war in Russia? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28761 Posts
The main we can do is give Ukraine enough advanced weaponry for them to defeat the invasion and send home enough dead Russians. | ||
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