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Velr
Switzerland10598 Posts
If you do it will suddenly sound way less racist and more matter of fact. The things they do are pretty much russian doctrine and not the acts of a few bad apples. In every war soldiers conduct some level of "bad" behaviour but to the level of the russian army? No. | ||
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Artesimo
Germany537 Posts
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Ardias
Russian Federation605 Posts
On May 02 2022 10:45 Lwerewolf wrote: Sorry, but I haven't seen any such accusations here yet. This is TL. I'm pretty sure that if anybody crosses that line, they'll be dealt with, so feel free to have a good, argument-backed discussion. Yeah, my bad, recieving responses like that On May 02 2022 18:56 Silvanel wrote: Why would You trust Russian line on any of this? during last months sometimes get me edgy a bit in advance. On May 02 2022 18:12 Artesimo wrote: Edit: on the same note, I genuinely cringe when I see people calling russians orcs or cockroaches. As Ghanburighan mentioned, "orcs" is a general reference to Russian troops in Ukraine, though in the internet discussions if you are Russian and do not outright support Ukraine, you will often get the same label. Have to admit, I've never heard the term "cockroaches" in regard to us. "Colorads" - yes. It's a reference to the colorado potato beetle whose colors are similar to the St. George Ribbon, which is currently the Victory Day (May 9th) symbol in Russia and was often used by pro-Russian activists in Ukraine in 2014, so this term is generally refers to them. On May 02 2022 18:56 Silvanel wrote: I command maybenexttime, marwin and Dav1oN for pushing back on those lies. Honestly, when I saw those walls of text containing truths, mixed with opinions, half-lies and blatant propaganda I kind of had enough. I mean, I see this everywhere: on my social feed, on YT, Twitter and here on TL. I don't have energy anymore to fight this. You need to realize Russia is paying people to spread misinformation. You can't expect, normal people, to time and time again commit their time to disprove the same lie again. Yeah, I guess I was Kremlin sleeper agent sent on TL 8 years in advance to watch GSL, play Starcraft and make trailers and highlight movies for Starbow mod, to wait until the time is nigh. Srsly. Also I've always thought that freedom of speech and opinion, and will to discuss matters and be open-minded are a core values of the Western world, for lack of which we were shamed for decades. And if you think that I'm posting propaganda, you really wouldn't like to know what they generally talk on our TV. Though I mostly try to abstain from mass-media, both Russian and Western ones, since I believe in political matter, they are all propaganda more or less, depending on those who pay them. I prefer to read, listen and watch info from common people, bloggers, independent journalists. Not that they couldn't have their own agenda as well, but at least they are more likely to be personally involved in the matter. Combination of different sources from different perspectives could give a reasonable picture in the end. That's what good historians do, and since I've always wanted to be one, that's what I'm trying to do as well. On May 02 2022 20:10 Ghanburighan wrote: This smells like yet another way to call people russophobic, like Russian propaganda wants us to do, even when they're talking about war criminals, rapists and genocidal monsters. If a Russian invades another country, we can and should curse them for it. If Russia is illegally invading its neighbour with genocidal intent, Russia needs to be cursed for it. They can get their good name back when they stop tarnishing it with their filthy behaviour and repent. This is not the time for virtue signaling with sensitive language, we have a genocide to stop. About "genocidal" intent - let's say I disagree that such was the intent. My belief is that the best case scenario Kremlin hoped for is that Ukrainian leadership will be scared at the prospect of all-out war, quickly surrender, goverment will be made pro-Russian, Russian will be second official language, Ukraine won't be trying to go into EU or NATO, Donbass and Crimea are recognized, water from Dniepr and electricity from Zaporozhie nuclear plant flow into Crimea without problem. Hip-hip hooray, home before the leaves grow. Putin's narrative from the start was "that we come to liberate people from Kiev regime", and I believe he wanted to be seen not only by Russian, but also by Ukrainian (especially Russian-speaking) population in such regard. Such attitude got a lot of our soldiers killed or captured in the first days. Though as the Ukrainians started to fiercly resist, amount of civilian casualities went up, that is true. But my point is that if Putin's objective was to kill as many Ukrainians (military or civilian) as possible - after two months Kharkov would be already flattened without any building left in one piece. As for antagonization - oddly enough, I think it plays well for both yours (I mean Western) and our political leadership. In the eyes of the West Russia will be the only scapegoat for any economic and social problem (wheter we guilty of it or not) for years to come. Same could be said about us, plus our leadership will be glad that Russian people would be turned off from the West and its values more and more since they aren't welcomed there. About repenting - many Russians still feel humiliated by the fall of Soviet Union, so I doubt that they would like to be humiliated even further (even if for a good reason). Though there is, as I mentioned before, disagreement in our society regarding the war. I often visit local pubs with friends, so I can see and hear a lot of heated arguments in the matter, sometimes even turning into fights. Though it's not large enough to mount large-scale protests (and there are also harsh punishments for that). | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1849 Posts
On May 02 2022 21:18 Ghanburighan wrote: I'm sorry, but they are all committing genocide. Whether they agree with it or not. Whether they themselves have raped or killed civilians. They are enemy combatants in an illegal genocidal war, they are fair targets for killing, and also being called orcs. You, sir, are simply a racist. If you can't even get yourself to not call "useful idiots" cockroaches, you should not be allowed to claim any moral superiority. Edit: And now that you rephrased your post so that you believe nobody can object to your dehumanisation anymore, because of course russian soldiers are not human, congratulation for realizing your thinking is offensive and censuring yourself. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5425 Posts
Also, it is key to use multiple reputable sources, not just sources presenting different points of view. If you read an article about the Earth being flat and another one about it being round, the truth is not somewhere in the middle. The same applies to the Russian narrative about the MH17, the "genocide" in Donbas etc. As for the genocidal intent, have you read the infamous articles by RIA? They are pretty open about it. As are many Russian politicians, including Putin himself. | ||
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xa2652
7 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/BMZtYFu.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/iWzQZf0.jpg) These people have totally nothing to do with Nazism, right? | ||
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Simberto
Germany11324 Posts
If there is no photoshop going on, then yes, the people on these photos are probably nazis. But what i do know is that you can find similar images for people from basically any country. Because there are some nazis everywhere. If you selectively take a few photos of a neonazi rally, you can paint any country as nazis. | ||
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Artesimo
Germany537 Posts
On May 02 2022 22:19 xa2652 wrote: + Show Spoiler + Lol all you pro-Ukraine people please explain these Images: These people have totally nothing to do with Nazism, right? Yes, there is a very small minority within ukraine and the forces of ukraine that are nazis. those are by far the minority and their 'increase' in popularity is mostly thanks to the russian aggression. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On May 02 2022 22:06 Broetchenholer wrote: You, sir, are simply a racist. If you can't even get yourself to not call "useful idiots" cockroaches, you should not be allowed to claim any moral superiority. Edit: And now that you rephrased your post so that you believe nobody can object to your dehumanisation anymore, because of course russian soldiers are not human, congratulation for realizing your thinking is offensive and censuring yourself. What are you even talking about? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5425 Posts
On May 02 2022 22:19 xa2652 wrote: Lol all you pro-Ukraine people please explain these Images: + Show Spoiler + These people have totally nothing to do with Nazism, right? You do realize that there are neo-Nazis fighting on the Russian side as well, right? | ||
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xa2652
7 Posts
And also do you see the Azov sign/coat-of-arms? Do you see the neo-nazi wolfsangel and black sun? The leader of this neo-nazi battlalion, Denys Prokopenko just recently been awarded the title Hero of Ukraine. Tell me, why is Ukraine making neo-nazi leaders their national hero? And tell me, why did Ukraine honor nazi figures such as Stepan Bandera? www.timesofisrael.com | ||
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xa2652
7 Posts
On May 02 2022 22:31 maybenexttime wrote: You do realize that there are neo-Nazis fighting on the Russian side as well, right? Do neo-nazis get rewarded title of Hero of Russia by Putin? | ||
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Artesimo
Germany537 Posts
On May 02 2022 22:34 xa2652 wrote: Do you see the flag? It's Nato + Azov + Nazi. And also do you see the Azov sign/coat-of-arms? Do you see the neo-nazi wolfsangel and black sun? The leader of this neo-nazi battlalion, Denys Prokopenko just recently been awarded the title Hero of Ukraine. Tell me, why is Ukraine making neo-nazi leaders their national hero? And tell me, why did Ukraine honor nazi figures such as Stepan Bandera? www.timesofisrael.com Because russian aggression has put him in a position where he became an important military figure for ukraine. regarding nazis in ukraine in general, this covers pretty much all of the usual talking points, it also highlights how the main thing that is helping right wing elements in ukraine is russians agression since 2014 https://www.factcheck.org/2022/03/the-facts-on-de-nazifying-ukraine/ | ||
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Ardias
Russian Federation605 Posts
On May 02 2022 22:07 maybenexttime wrote: Being completely sceptical of the media is the desired effect of Russian propaganda. And journalists being personally involved in what they're reporting on usually affects their objectivism negatively, not positively. Also, it is key to use multiple reputable sources, not just sources presenting different points of view. If you read an article about the Earth being flat and another one about it being round, the truth is not somewhere in the middle. The same applies to the Russian narrative about the MH17, the "genocide" in Donbas etc. As for the genocidal intent, have you read the infamous articles by RIA? They are pretty open about it. As are many Russian politicians, including Putin himself. Question is, what is "reputable"? And who is "independent"? As I've read threads on US politics, there is a contnious debate that "Fox News are fake because they are Republican" or "Washington post tells everything in favour of Democrats". Or opinions on agencies like Dailymail or Bild being "the yellow press". And why would, for example, accounts of Russian volunteer serving in LPR and posting info in his Livejournal blog would be a bad source (i'm occasionaly reading few such people)? Yes, he is biased, yes, his opinions should be taken with a grain of salt, but he is actually living there and serving for years. He sees things directly from his trench. Of course it's unwise to think that his opinion is the only right one, but it should be taken into account. As well as those from the other side, and then from neutral ones. Plus due to the fact that Russia is at war not only with Ukraine, but de-facto, in a cold stance, with whole western world (considering all the sanctions, military supplies, financial, recoinassance and media support to Ukraine I wouldn't believe its a long stretch), it's hard to expect full objectivity in media on your enemy. Edit: about RIA - you mean this one? https://ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html Yeah, that is the reason why I don't read our state media on political questions, stuff like that makes me puke. But, if we are completely objective, while it looks like a page fron 1984 book, it doesn't talk of the physical genocide of the Ukrainian population. I'll try to briefly translate "the first necessary denazification measures" part: "- termination of all Ukrainian military forces and structure that supplies it; - creation of Peoples militia and local authorities: - installation of Russian information bubble; - ban on any education that is considered nazi; - mass investigations to find those who is responsible for the war crimes and support of nazi regime; - making information about the supporters of the nazi regime public, making them to pay for it by force labor; - forbiddance of any form of nazi ideology; - installation of monuments for those who died fighting nazism; - implementation of anti-fascist and anti-nazi provisions in the constitutions of the new Peoples republics; - creation of acting denazification bodies for 25 years" So this article promoted dismatling Ukraine as a state, creation of a few new republics, with Russian-controlled governments, and russification of the population. But bear in mind, that this article appeared on 03.04.2022. I believe that after the plans for quick war failed and negotioations went to nothing, people in Kremlin decided to go for plan B (as "home before the leaves grow" which I wrote about in my previous post didn't happen). My theory is based on the fact that for more that a month nobody (not including one case with Kadyrov troops in Hostomel) was removing Ukrainian flags from the occupied cities, and nobody was changing local authorities to the Russian-backed ones. This happened only in Donetsk and Lugansk regions, which Russia considers as parts of DPR and LPR. But in the end of March suddenly we started to change flags and appoint our mayors all over Kherson and Zaporozhie regions. My guess is plan B will be to take as much territory as possible, at least before winter, and then freeze the conflict for the time being, while doing all measures mentioned above on Russian controlled territory to either integrate it into Russia later, or create some new republics there. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1849 Posts
On May 02 2022 22:36 xa2652 wrote: Do neo-nazis get rewarded title of Hero of Russia by Putin? You should check the Wagner Group and then answer your own question. Putin is financing all far right movements in all of Europe. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On May 02 2022 21:49 Ardias wrote: Wow, didn't expect my posts to get this much response. I'll be trying to answer everyone in my spare time. About "genocidal" intent - let's say I disagree that such was the intent. My belief is that the best case scenario Kremlin hoped for is that Ukrainian leadership will be scared at the prospect of all-out war, quickly surrender, goverment will be made pro-Russian, Russian will be second official language, Ukraine won't be trying to go into EU or NATO, Donbass and Crimea are recognized, water from Dniepr and electricity from Zaporozhie nuclear plant flow into Crimea without problem. Hip-hip hooray, home before the leaves grow. Putin's narrative from the start was "that we come to liberate people from Kiev regime", and I believe he wanted to be seen not only by Russian, but also by Ukrainian (especially Russian-speaking) population in such regard. Such attitude got a lot of our soldiers killed or captured in the first days. Though as the Ukrainians started to fiercly resist, amount of civilian casualities went up, that is true. But my point is that if Putin's objective was to kill as many Ukrainians (military or civilian) as possible - after two months Kharkov would be already flattened without any building left in one piece. As for antagonization - oddly enough, I think it plays well for both yours (I mean Western) and our political leadership. In the eyes of the West Russia will be the only scapegoat for any economic and social problem (wheter we guilty of it or not) for years to come. Same could be said about us, plus our leadership will be glad that Russian people would be turned off from the West and its values more and more since they aren't welcomed there. About repenting - many Russians still feel humiliated by the fall of Soviet Union, so I doubt that they would like to be humiliated even further (even if for a good reason). Though there is, as I mentioned before, disagreement in our society regarding the war. I often visit local pubs with friends, so I can see and hear a lot of heated arguments in the matter, sometimes even turning into fights. Though it's not large enough to mount large-scale protests (and there are also harsh punishments for that). First of all, I appreciate your willingness to come here and discuss these topics in such a calm and well-argued manner. I think you don't realize that genocide from a legal perspective is a combination of several things. The bar is lower than you might think. Showing intent is important but not necessary. Yet, even destroying Ukraine as a nation or replacement of the government could be sufficient. So, what you say isn't really a counterargument. But, more damning, is the premeditated aspects of extermination. There's increasing evidence of RU having pre-war lists of people to exterminate, both military and administrative. Paratroopers shooting at Zelensky on the 25th is the latest example of this. This almost certainly counts as part of the puzzle to call it genocide. Now you just need something additional. Deportations are a huge one, and we've seen a large number of deportations into Russia. Rape is another, and once again, you have wide-scale rape and discussions of rape from Russians as a tool of terror. So, it's not clear how the international criminal court will establish genocide in the end, but it's very likely (in my mind, and from lawyers I've discussed this with) that genocidal intent will be determined in the end. I do agree with you that RU troops started targeting civilians more after the first few days. And especially during retreats (mirroring retreats in Syria). I also agree that Russians don't want another humiliation. But that's also the problem, mostly for Russians. Due to the massive miscalculation by Putin, Western countries cannot re-establish business as usual with Putin or the following Russian regimes until Russia goes through a period of repenting and possibly disarming. This leaves Russia two paths: become Germany post-WWII or North Korea. I think Russia will choose the latter. And this is very sad because a lot of people inside and outside of Russia will suffer from this. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5425 Posts
On May 02 2022 22:36 xa2652 wrote: Do neo-nazis get rewarded title of Hero of Russia by Putin? As a matter of fact, they do. ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhoga https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10583341/Russian-warlord-led-Neo-Nazi-Sparta-mob-shot-dead-battle-eastern-Ukraine.html http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67920 What now? | ||
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