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On July 30 2021 11:59 TT1 wrote:
The part about the pics/suicide was both sad and infuriating to read, were these events confirmed to have happened on Blizz's watch?
Letting stuff like this go on in the company without instantly confronting it head on is a massive failure on managements part, leadership should have stepped in right away. And in the likelihood that they didn't know about any of this (which i honestly find hard to believe).. that's also a failure on managements part for not knowing enough about the inner workings of their company.
Regardless, what this tells me is there was a major lack of character in the leadership roles.
I believe the suicide wasn't specifically Blizzard, but Activision publishing. Blizzard's sexual harassment issues are confirmed to have been known about by senior Blizzard staff like J Allen Brack.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On July 30 2021 08:41 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit.
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On July 30 2021 18:37 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:41 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this. THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit.
You're placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On July 30 2021 20:38 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 18:37 deacon.frost wrote:On July 30 2021 08:41 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this. THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit. Your placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates
Easy mistake to make, it is NewSunshine after all!
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On July 30 2021 20:38 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 18:37 deacon.frost wrote:On July 30 2021 08:41 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this. THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit. You're placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates
Well if everybody else in the US is happy with the state, then all he has to do is to move to the Europe. That is if we want to play the stupid game of me addressing this one user and not using the plural...
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United Kingdom10025 Posts
On July 30 2021 20:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 20:38 Excludos wrote:On July 30 2021 18:37 deacon.frost wrote:On July 30 2021 08:41 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:
[quote]
that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this. THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit. Your placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates Easy mistake to make, it is NewSunshine after all!
I think NewSunshine can get it done tbh. All it takes is hard work. No excuse.
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On July 30 2021 11:59 TT1 wrote:
The part about the pics/suicide was both sad and infuriating to read, were these events confirmed to have happened on Blizz's watch?
Letting stuff like this go on in the company without instantly confronting it head on is a massive failure on managements part, leadership should have stepped in right away. And in the likelihood that they didn't know about any of this (which i honestly find hard to believe).. that's also a failure on managements part for not knowing enough about the inner workings of their company.
Regardless, what this tells me is there was a major lack of character/integrity within the leadership roles.
We need to stop assuming there's a systematic failure in management when this is just the culture. Reports keep highlighting whole laundry lists of video game developers where people are speaking out more and more often about awful work conditions/crunch and rife sexual/power harassment they face on the daily. It isn't a failure of management, management is creating the environment they want.
If Riot hires a former Blizzard artist (iirc) with a history of being a sex pest, what does that say about Riot? It is a failure of management or did they just absolutely not care that this guy was a sex pest and didn't see it as a major problem in terms of morale and company culture? Riot is the same company whose CEO was engaged in sexual misconduct/coercion and as a company keeps popping up in the news for gender discrimination and having a frathouse type environment. This is who Riot are as a company, believe them when they tell you who they are.
There was a Blizzcon panel from 2010 where a female fan asked Blizzard staff panel (which included Brack) if they planned to design some female characters that didn't look straight out of a Victoria's Secret catalog. Which is a fair question, Blizzard characters at the time were full on with the high heels and bikini armor. Kerrigan's SC2 design is straight trash: stiletto heels, a bone corset and full on emphasis on tits. Same deal with Sylvanas' design at the same period of time.
And looking at the current reports of sexual abuse and sheer emotional immaturity being rife within Blizzard, the panel responded to her in possibly the worst way possible. They laughed at her, asked her which catalog they preferred her characters to come from, and started cracking jokes about "which catalogs their female characters come from". This is Blizzard's upper management making these comments in 2010.
They fostered this type of environment on purpose, there was no mistake or failure of management. The most charitable thing you might be able to say is that everyone turned a blind eye to everything...which is hard to believe when Blizzard staff created a fucking Cosby (yes of the Bill Cosby fame) Suite to engage in sexual coercion of interns and the like. That's the type of shit I'm willing to risk losing my job over to report to the fucking police/media. In hindsight, the way the panel approached her question tells me everything about the people they are.
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8751 Posts
On July 30 2021 10:43 tec27 wrote:As far as the walkout "not being risky", it's easy to find counterexamples to that in very recent history. Organizers behind the women's walkout at Google a few years back were almost universally retaliated against by the company, pushed out of their jobs, their career progress completely sidelined. They become seen as "problem employees", unhireable at most companies. Several of them have since won successful judgements through the NLRB about this, but only after years of legal battles, lawyer costs, etc. Had the turnout for that action not been so large and had so many eyes on it, the consequences likely would have been far worse, and you never know until you *do* the action how many people are actually going to turn up and support you. Companies hire firms that are very experienced to try and shut this type of organizing down, to subvert it, to break down any of the people involved and make them leave. In the US we're at least past the days where companies literally shot these people in the streets (Yes, I am serious, that is a thing that used to occur with regularity, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike ), but these sorts of things are certainly not without risk.
I think each situation is unique and my understanding of this one is that the amount of risk involved in someone taking a stand five years ago is infinitely more than employee #1298 signing the statement and standing outside for a day. If it turns out all these employees end up suffering for this, then I'll be corrected. I think it's more likely a situation where any employee who refused to sign is going to be looked down upon by their colleagues.
On July 30 2021 10:43 tec27 wrote:
You talk about how you "try to change things, and if it fails, leave," well, this walkout is people trying to change things. Why do you not support that now, then?
I'm not involved. I don't know who is guilty or who is not. I don't know whose heart is in the right place. People can speak platitudes and manipulate opinions. These employees have done nothing to win my trust. We should be distrustful of all of them. When they accomplish something, I'll be happy for them. When they do something that would actually involve me beyond "hey random person, trust me I'm a good guy trying to do the right thing right now, can you just say you support me so I can win this power struggle against these other people who you also don't know and are saying they're trying to do the right thing?" then I'd consider it.
When I look at these employees I see a bunch of people who have been tolerating awful behavior for years or decades. That's not the kind of people I trust or respect. When they make one statement that they're trying to be better now, it's common sense to be extremely skeptical of it. And then people say "well they're good people who are unwilling to sacrifice their careers and financial security to do the right thing" as if that's going to make me respect them more. Like I should respect the guards at Auschwitz because they were put in a tough spot.
The only people I somewhat trust to do the right thing, and who I know actually are working on something tangible, are DFEH. And I'm paying taxes in California, which is more tangible support than all these gestures people are making online.
If people only took individual action, nothing would have ever changed and we would be even more disempowered as workers than we already are.
I don't understand this at all. If everyone had my attitude, then progress would be faster. You say that these group movements are historically how progress has been made and I think the fact that it only ever happens that way is why progress has been so slow.
In a different culture where every individual rejects something that's unacceptable, the business has to adapt. Businesses which have expanded internationally have encountered this, having to learn that the way they run their business in one country won't work in another.
But what I understand of the people at Blizzard is that it's made up of the meek, selfish people who allow a lot more suffering to happen than is necessary while they wait for a shifting of the winds and safety in numbers to participate in change.
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I don't think it's kind or acceptable to make that kind of statement about everyone at Blizzard. You might think less of them because you'd do more if you were in their situation. Good for you. I couldn't care less about that. But while acknowledging how little you know about all the people involved and exactly what the situation is like, you're still happy to paint them all with the same judgmental brush. That sucks, dude.
Not everyone is the same as you, and you need to get over that. You're not cool for saying you would do so much more than everyone there. Get the job, then become a woman or POC, get harassed and denied opportunities, then tell me how you'd handle it.
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This argument sounds to me like "this situation would be improved if the tragedy of the commons didn't exist."
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On July 31 2021 00:32 NewSunshine wrote:
I don't think it's kind or acceptable to make that kind of statement about everyone at Blizzard. You might think less of them because you'd do more if you were in their situation. Good for you. I couldn't care less about that. But while acknowledging how little you know about all the people involved and exactly what the situation is like, you're still happy to paint them all with the same judgmental brush. That sucks, dude.
Not everyone is the same as you, and you need to get over that. You're not cool for saying you would do so much more than everyone there. Get the job, then become a woman or POC, get harassed and denied opportunities, then tell me how you'd handle it.
Exactly. The world has never been that simple, and saying you'd do something in that situation doesn't mean shit because you aren't in that situation. Claiming you'd do this that and the other is hollow because talk is cheap. You didn't work there. You didn't experience this firsthand. You didn't live with the pressures and fears these people did. Until you actually go work somewhere and expose the shitty underbelly of a powerful corporation that's capable of blacklisting you from an entire industry and possibly ruining your life forever, what you say you'd do in that situation doesn't mean anything.
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On July 31 2021 00:57 StasisField wrote:
You didn't live with the pressures and fears these people did. Until you actually go work somewhere and expose the shitty underbelly of a powerful corporation that's capable of blacklisting you from an entire industry and possibly ruining your life forever, what you say you'd do in that situation doesn't mean anything.
Before you start your career you research and plan. Create a career that can avoid and/or withstand one corporation screwing you over. This method applies for both the real victims and the falsely accused.
If one plans to work for the best there is ... one must know going in it is not for the faint of heart. I went to the best tech school in Canada. For many that means a maximum of 10 days off per year . Moving 10+ times in 4 years in 4+ cities. Someone in my school committed suicide during my time there. meh, it happens man. The program is brutal. I did my research and I knew this going in. For the first year it was very tough for me. However, the rewards were also there. You run the gauntlet and you get rewarded. People going in to work for Blizz and the gaming industry should do their research and realize the industry has been shadey for 4+ decades.
If you examine the tactics of Namco , Atari and Mattel from the 70s ... its clear these orgs would have zero problems covering up harassment on the job. Nolan Bushnell was fingered as a perpetrator and authored poor company culture featuriung hot tub parties and female employees in bikinis. Nothing has changed since then. Its up to those entering the video game industry to do their own research and realize the mine field they are entering.
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United States44417 Posts
On July 30 2021 21:32 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 20:38 Excludos wrote:On July 30 2021 18:37 deacon.frost wrote:On July 30 2021 08:41 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:
[quote]
that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this. THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit. You're placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates Well if everybody else in the US is happy with the state, then all he has to do is to move to the Europe. That is if we want to play the stupid game of me addressing this one user and not using the plural...
All he has to do is move to Europe? That’s all?
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8751 Posts
I'm fine with people doing what they want with their lives. The question here is why I wouldn't volunteer my support for Blizzard employees and I'm explaining my perspective.
I can 100% predict how my tenure at Blizzard would've gone: I would've heard about or witnessed some shitty behavior, I would've intervened, and I would've told my superiors to fuck off if they didn't live up to my standards, and I would've gotten fired and told my story to the public. If everyone was like me, things would've changed sooner.
Even if someone was behaving exactly like I would, I still wouldn't give my support without knowing all the details. They could be deceitful.
Imo the correct reasonable response by an outsider is to let the DFEH do their jobs and stay out of it. No need to respect anyone any less until it's been proven they were guilty of some shit. All the slacktivism in response to this shit is misplaced.
I have a problem with people trying to accuse me of doing something wrong for not supporting them. I ought to be able to stay neutral in something I'm not involved in and don't understand. And it's absurd to think there should be some kind of suspension of judgment on their work because of all this.
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8751 Posts
On July 31 2021 00:32 NewSunshine wrote:
I don't think it's kind or acceptable to make that kind of statement about everyone at Blizzard. You might think less of them because you'd do more if you were in their situation. Good for you. I couldn't care less about that. But while acknowledging how little you know about all the people involved and exactly what the situation is like, you're still happy to paint them all with the same judgmental brush. That sucks, dude.
Not everyone is the same as you, and you need to get over that. You're not cool for saying you would do so much more than everyone there. Get the job, then become a woman or POC, get harassed and denied opportunities, then tell me how you'd handle it.
You cant even follow the conversation. Just give up trying to understand my perspective. Blame it on my poor attempt at explaining it if you have too much pride to think I could possibly have something to say you don't already understand.
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United States44417 Posts
Nony, I think the issue is your attitude of “I’m willing to blow up my life in the face of injustice and if I die then whatever, I’d have died anyway”. Most people don’t live that way, that’s a very unusual attitude. Most people have priorities like providing for their family, even if their family will also die eventually anyway, and not dying themselves. While they might practically have the same power to blow everything up as you they place a higher value on the sacrifices that would be asked of them.
This may not make sense to you but it does to most people and that’s why there is sympathy to the victims. There is sympathy even though those victims tolerated their abuse due to a sense of powerlessness. They are viewed as powerless even though they had the ability to suicide bomb Blizzard HQ. There are many forms of powerlessness and some people can feel powerless, even if they have the power to make their situation worse.
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On July 31 2021 01:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 21:32 deacon.frost wrote:On July 30 2021 20:38 Excludos wrote:On July 30 2021 18:37 deacon.frost wrote:On July 30 2021 08:41 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:
[quote]
The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this. THen MAYBE, just MAYBE, you may want to change how the US operates. Just a suggestion. In the end you have the freedom and democracy and shit. You're placing a lot of faith in one TLs user's ability to change the entirety of how his country operates Well if everybody else in the US is happy with the state, then all he has to do is to move to the Europe. That is if we want to play the stupid game of me addressing this one user and not using the plural... All he has to do is move to Europe? That’s all?
Anyone engaging in absolutist "if you don't love 100% of America you can just leave" bullshit can GTFO. I decide what I want to do with my time, thanks.
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When i read this forum, i wonder where all these “perfect people” who go on about what they would do if they were in this situation are hiding in real life.
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I understand your perspective just fine, Nony. And I agree that if everyone were somehow as willing as you to throw everything away to fight any injustice, it would be a lot less likely to happen in the first place. I don't think that's a stretch to say. But you're tripping up on the "if everyone was like me" part of it. And honestly, if you could just snap your fingers and make everyone think the way you do, nothing would be an issue ever. Also Blizzard would've done it first. That that's what they tried to do is the entire problem.
Unfortunately, life isn't a game of Starcraft. People aren't willing to just attack into the enemy base unquestioningly until they die. They tend to like the lives they have, and don't want to make it worse for themselves unless they absolutely have to. It's not about whether your perspective is so revolutionary I just don't understand it, it's about whether you understand the fact that almost nobody is going to join you in your attitude. You can be absolutely right that if everyone acts the way you would there would be no issues, but it doesn't matter because it will never ever ever happen, ever.
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8751 Posts
On July 31 2021 01:47 KwarK wrote:
Nony, I think the issue is your attitude of “I’m willing to blow up my life in the face of injustice and if I die then whatever, I’d have died anyway”. Most people don’t live that way, that’s a very unusual attitude. Most people have priorities like providing for their family, even if their family will also die eventually anyway, and not dying themselves. While they might practically have the same power to blow everything up as you they place a higher value on the sacrifices that would be asked of them.
This may not make sense to you but it does to most people and that’s why there is sympathy to the victims. There is sympathy even though those victims tolerated their abuse due to a sense of powerlessness. They are viewed as powerless even though they had the ability to suicide bomb Blizzard HQ. There are many forms of powerlessness and some people can feel powerless, even if they have the power to make their situation worse.
I am surprised by how much support they've garnered, but I'm not surprised that some people did flock to the cause. In this day and age, I'm not surprised by any cause gaining supporters. No matter how dumb or hateful the cause is, or how awful the people behind it are, there will be supporters.
What I don't understand is why people think I'm wrong for not supporting them. It is far from a black and white issue. A government agency is already taking legal action. And all that aside, the quality of their work and the direction their work both deserve criticism. To me, the obvious course of action is to continue to be critical of them until they actually show some results, since they already had all our support at one point and have only declined since then. Or just forget they exist, let them try to sort themselves out, let the legal action take its course, and give them a clean second chance at some point in the future. But how dare I be critical at a time like this when they just said they're trying to better themselves (and the opportunity to gain leverage over their leadership is just a coincidence, of course).
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EPT
