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But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want.
Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should.
We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
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On July 30 2021 08:15 Pascal1p wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 06:40 NonY wrote:
nevermind that if people didnt tolerate it at all, then this would've blown up over a decade ago and all the victims between now and then wouldn't have been victims But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people. It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want. Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should. We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
They have the right to do what they want as a company, you're right. But the people who work there who find that unacceptable, and the people at large, have the right to call it out when they feel it's unacceptable. There isn't some nefarious agenda or "cancel culture" BS going on, it's just people finding out about horrific behavior by powerful people at Blizzard and finding it unacceptable. It's really not complicated. Not all workplace cultures are equal, and maybe the backlash is deserved.
And if they care at all about their image or whether people continue to support them, they do something about it instead of offering horrible non-apologies and refuse to even respect the victims and their stories on a basic level. If they can't do better than that they deserve every ounce of shit they catch and then some. People have every right to decide whether a company is shitty, just as a company has every right to be shitty.
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On July 30 2021 08:18 Pascal1p wrote:
But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want.
Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should.
We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
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But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want.
Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should.
We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
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8748 Posts
On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man.
it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself.
people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
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On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live?
I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
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Bisutopia19152 Posts
On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture.
I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself.
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On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
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On July 30 2021 08:41 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. Everything from your pay to the benefits you get, to even how your former employer talks about you to others in the industry all make "just leaving your job" in America incredibly difficult. And then most or all of those problems appear to be magnified in the gaming industry, and Blizzard in particular. Good luck raising any kind of fuss and getting to keep your job, or even get a new one afterward. The entire system is designed to rob ordinary employees of their power to make change like this.
Yeah, a lot of these problems are solved by having a union, and Blizzard employees are kind of on that precipice, but ActiBlizz is already on the way with their union busting lawfirm to make sure that they make some cursory changes to maybe help prevent some sexual harassment sometimes, and to make sure that any unionization ideas are thorough quelched. I can guess which one they're really worried about up top.
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8748 Posts
On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them.
the worst that can happen is your life ends shorter than you were hoping for. do what you want with your life. if you want to get paid for keeping quiet about bad behavior, then do it. im just not supporting it and im astonished at how much support it receives
On July 30 2021 08:38 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself.
true. it just seems weird to me in a situation. if a young man in a gang quits the gang and is trying to turn his life around, i'd be supportive of him. this situation strikes me as different though. i dont want to be manipulated into picking a side between the leadership and the employees when there are scumbags on both sides. if leadership would've just responded differently, this would've been so much simpler, but apparently they thought that denial was the best route to take to protect the company, which is their responsibility, and im in no position to judge that decision (though the response they drafted was obviously awful). so the employees instead take it upon themselves to respond in the way we'd want them to, but now it's not so simple to just throw support behind them
i wish them the best of luck at improving the situation just for the sake of minimizing the number of future victims. but the values of the company as a game developer no longer match what i want from a game developer so i'd be just as happy with this being the beginning of the end of this company and talent continuing to leak out to join other studios
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Leadership cultivates an environment, employees propagate it. If someone from Blizzard went to my workplace (precovid/WFH) and tried to pull off some of the shit they've done there, it would be immediately shot down as an unacceptable idea. The culture starts at the top, if there is no change in leadership, there is no change in the employees.
You've got to realize a lot of people are fresh out of college, or early in their career. If you let them continue a college frathouse, or have an environment where people can work in a frathouse, they will do that instead of having a "professional" environment.
Similarly, you've probably heard the role of HR is to protect the company. HR was probably neutered to simply a hiring role, if something like this could happen without repercussions.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 30 2021 09:20 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. the worst that can happen is your life ends shorter than you were hoping for. do what you want with your life. if you want to get paid for keeping quiet about bad behavior, then do it. im just not supporting it and im astonished at how much support it receives Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:38 BisuDagger wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself. true. it just seems weird to me in a situation. if a young man in a gang quits the gang and is trying to turn his life around, i'd be supportive of him. this situation strikes me as different though. i dont want to be manipulated into picking a side between the leadership and the employees when there are scumbags on both sides. if leadership would've just responded differently, this would've been so much simpler, but apparently they thought that denial was the best route to take to protect the company, which is their responsibility, and im in no position to judge that decision (though the response they drafted was obviously awful). so the employees instead take it upon themselves to respond in the way we'd want them to, but now it's not so simple to just throw support behind them i wish them the best of luck at improving the situation just for the sake of minimizing the number of future victims. but the values of the company as a game developer no longer match what i want from a game developer so i'd be just as happy with this being the beginning of the end of this company and talent continuing to leak out to join other studios
If I'm to take your logic to an extreme, employees should protest sexual harassment that they know of by slitting their own throats on the doorstep of the studio, after all, if they cared they'd willingly give up their lives, because its only ending your live before maybe you thought it would.
The underlying threads of logic I'm reading into some of these posts are really nihilistic, even for me
On July 30 2021 10:16 Lmui wrote:
Leadership cultivates an environment, employees propagate it. If someone from Blizzard went to my workplace (precovid/WFH) and tried to pull off some of the shit they've done there, it would be immediately shot down as an unacceptable idea. The culture starts at the top, if there is no change in leadership, there is no change in the employees.
You've got to realize a lot of people are fresh out of college, or early in their career. If you let them continue a college frathouse, or have an environment where people can work in a frathouse, they will do that instead of having a "professional" environment.
Similarly, you've probably heard the role of HR is to protect the company. HR was probably neutered to simply a hiring role, if something like this could happen without repercussions.
Even worse, in the leaked picture of the people involved with the Cosby Suite, there are literally HR people there. HR wasn't minimized, HR was in on it/actively did nothing.
https://kotaku.com/inside-blizzard-developers-infamous-bill-cosby-suite-1847378762
One ex-Blizzard source familiar with the people presented in the pictures identified an HR representative as one of the Blizzard employees present in the hotel room.
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On July 30 2021 08:19 Pascal1p wrote:Show nested quote +
But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want. Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should. We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within.
Actually once they decided to go public and take shareholder's money it is no longer just their company. They have obligations to shareholders, both monetarily and if the majority of the shareholders wish morally and ethically as well. If they want to do what they want then they should take the company back to private.
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Edit: Zambrah posted the same thing a few minutes ago
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On July 30 2021 09:20 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. the worst that can happen is your life ends shorter than you were hoping for. do what you want with your life. if you want to get paid for keeping quiet about bad behavior, then do it. im just not supporting it and im astonished at how much support it receives Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:38 BisuDagger wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself. true. it just seems weird to me in a situation. if a young man in a gang quits the gang and is trying to turn his life around, i'd be supportive of him. this situation strikes me as different though. i dont want to be manipulated into picking a side between the leadership and the employees when there are scumbags on both sides. if leadership would've just responded differently, this would've been so much simpler, but apparently they thought that denial was the best route to take to protect the company, which is their responsibility, and im in no position to judge that decision (though the response they drafted was obviously awful). so the employees instead take it upon themselves to respond in the way we'd want them to, but now it's not so simple to just throw support behind them i wish them the best of luck at improving the situation just for the sake of minimizing the number of future victims. but the values of the company as a game developer no longer match what i want from a game developer so i'd be just as happy with this being the beginning of the end of this company and talent continuing to leak out to join other studios
Part of achieving change with things like these is exactly what these employees did yesterday. There are other, better options, than simply quitting your job if you care about more than just your own outcomes. After all, a person quitting their job at a company that mistreats women does nothing to help those women, the company is free to mistreat them afterwards. And worse, it tends to move the culture even further in the direction.
As far as the walkout "not being risky", it's easy to find counterexamples to that in very recent history. Organizers behind the women's walkout at Google a few years back were almost universally retaliated against by the company, pushed out of their jobs, their career progress completely sidelined. They become seen as "problem employees", unhireable at most companies. Several of them have since won successful judgements through the NLRB about this, but only after years of legal battles, lawyer costs, etc. Had the turnout for that action not been so large and had so many eyes on it, the consequences likely would have been far worse, and you never know until you *do* the action how many people are actually going to turn up and support you. Companies hire firms that are very experienced to try and shut this type of organizing down, to subvert it, to break down any of the people involved and make them leave. In the US we're at least past the days where companies literally shot these people in the streets (Yes, I am serious, that is a thing that used to occur with regularity, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike ), but these sorts of things are certainly not without risk.
The Google women's walkout demonstrated that these sorts of actions can achieve concessions from the company in tech spaces, and thus it's often a tactic that workers at other companies have reached for as of late. Supporting such things doesn't require you to support anyone within it at an individual level, nor does it require every person within the movement to be a perfect individual. Even if there "are bad people on both sides", as you say, it's sort of hard to see how supporting the demands would be bad? Is ending mandatory arbitration in employment contracts bad just because someone who didn't take action earlier about sexual harassment also supports it? Is wanting outside investigation of harassment claims with a party chosen by employees bad because of that reason? Very hard to see how one could take that stance.
You talk about how you "try to change things, and if it fails, leave," well, this walkout is people trying to change things. Why do you not support that now, then? I know that the US education system really fails to tell people how change was won in the past 2 centuries (because it failed me too, and I only learned of these things in my adult life), but there's a vast history of labor movements that goes completely untold. People come away learning this falsity that the only options they have are *personal* ones: you can shut up and take the paycheck, or you can leave, there is nothing else. Well, there are other options. They've been used extensively, they are the only reason we even have the concept of a 40 hour workweek, of a weekend. If people only took individual action, nothing would have ever changed and we would be even more disempowered as workers than we already are.
I'd encourage you to check out some basic reading on this subject, as it might change your viewpoint. A good starting point is probably From The Folks Who Brought You The Weekend.
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On July 30 2021 10:16 Lmui wrote:
Leadership cultivates an environment, employees propagate it. If someone from Blizzard went to my workplace (precovid/WFH) and tried to pull off some of the shit they've done there, it would be immediately shot down as an unacceptable idea. The culture starts at the top, if there is no change in leadership, there is no change in the employees.
You've got to realize a lot of people are fresh out of college, or early in their career. If you let them continue a college frathouse, or have an environment where people can work in a frathouse, they will do that instead of having a "professional" environment.
Similarly, you've probably heard the role of HR is to protect the company. HR was probably neutered to simply a hiring role, if something like this could happen without repercussions.
And HR should be just for that. HR should never have any other roles or powers.
Lets be honest the better you are, the worse stunts you can pull. And i mean actual competency, not those fakers who work their way up with network/nepotism/fraud/lies etc. It is the geniuses that shaped our society and made sure we got out of the dark ages.
If I have a nobel prize winner in physics working for me and he is saying derogatory things about women, you bet you I am going to keep him. You betya that I will fire the women who cant work with him.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 30 2021 10:26 cha0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:19 Pascal1p wrote:
But also let me point this out for the victim-blaming crap that it is. Without being in the company, you have no idea what it's like, and then when you finally land your dream job at Blizzard you find they have a vile company culture that comes straight from the top. There are people who didn't tolerate it, they got fired and their stories were silenced. It was a top-down culture of exploiting and suppressing people at will. Leadership at Blizzard fostered a culture from the start that was toxic as hell, so all the people who would've stood against it got pushed out before they became a significant portion of their workforce. They selected for what they wanted and against what they didn't, which is effective leadership in a nutshell. It was just also despicable. Don't fucking blame the people who had to put up with it. They did nothing wrong. Go for the people who use their power and privilege to shit on the lives of other people.
It is their company. They have the right to select who they want and select people who they want and who would fit in. They also have the right to push out the people that they don't want. Yes, there are of course limits and yes there are extremes. But what we are seeing in today's society is that even quite innocent or minor stuff gets punished so hard. And that people are punished for something way more than they should. We are getting to a point where you are punished in society and in a job for not 'respecting' transgenders. Where if you do not use the pronoun or honorific that they want to hear, you will be fired. Again if this is the culture of the company, it is their right. but nowadays companies are forced due to media backlash or because they are being forcefully changed from within. Actually once they decided to go public and take shareholder's money it is no longer just their company. They have obligations to shareholders, both monetarily and if the majority of the shareholders wish morally and ethically as well. If they want to do what they want then they should take the company back to private.
Only if they do not hold majority shares. And even then the whole stock business is a joke.
The company gets 1 injection of money but many of those who injected the money dont even hold the shares anymore, they sold it. And none of those transactions or even stocks going up or down effect the real business of a company. Theoretically a company could go down to 0 on the stock markets and still make billions each day.
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On July 30 2021 10:26 Zambrah wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 30 2021 09:20 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. the worst that can happen is your life ends shorter than you were hoping for. do what you want with your life. if you want to get paid for keeping quiet about bad behavior, then do it. im just not supporting it and im astonished at how much support it receives Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:38 BisuDagger wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself. true. it just seems weird to me in a situation. if a young man in a gang quits the gang and is trying to turn his life around, i'd be supportive of him. this situation strikes me as different though. i dont want to be manipulated into picking a side between the leadership and the employees when there are scumbags on both sides. if leadership would've just responded differently, this would've been so much simpler, but apparently they thought that denial was the best route to take to protect the company, which is their responsibility, and im in no position to judge that decision (though the response they drafted was obviously awful). so the employees instead take it upon themselves to respond in the way we'd want them to, but now it's not so simple to just throw support behind them i wish them the best of luck at improving the situation just for the sake of minimizing the number of future victims. but the values of the company as a game developer no longer match what i want from a game developer so i'd be just as happy with this being the beginning of the end of this company and talent continuing to leak out to join other studios If I'm to take your logic to an extreme, employees should protest sexual harassment that they know of by slitting their own throats on the doorstep of the studio, after all, if they cared they'd willingly give up their lives, because its only ending your live before maybe you thought it would. The underlying threads of logic I'm reading into some of these posts are really nihilistic, even for me Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 10:16 Lmui wrote:
Leadership cultivates an environment, employees propagate it. If someone from Blizzard went to my workplace (precovid/WFH) and tried to pull off some of the shit they've done there, it would be immediately shot down as an unacceptable idea. The culture starts at the top, if there is no change in leadership, there is no change in the employees.
You've got to realize a lot of people are fresh out of college, or early in their career. If you let them continue a college frathouse, or have an environment where people can work in a frathouse, they will do that instead of having a "professional" environment.
Similarly, you've probably heard the role of HR is to protect the company. HR was probably neutered to simply a hiring role, if something like this could happen without repercussions. Even worse, in the leaked picture of the people involved with the Cosby Suite, there are literally HR people there. HR wasn't minimized, HR was in on it/actively did nothing. https://kotaku.com/inside-blizzard-developers-infamous-bill-cosby-suite-1847378762Show nested quote +One ex-Blizzard source familiar with the people presented in the pictures identified an HR representative as one of the Blizzard employees present in the hotel room.
Again this is the sort of stuff that does not matter at all. Who the fuck cares they made a bill cosby suite?
It is a joke. Not the sort of joke I like. but it is still a joke and even if they meant it serious. Then still who the fuck cares.
It does not harm anyone
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On July 30 2021 10:54 Pascal1p wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 10:26 Zambrah wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 30 2021 09:20 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:38 Zambrah wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. What happens if they fail to change the situation, leave, and then get into a car accident? What happens if their family members get sick? What happens when they leave and they have no health insurance, no reliable income, potentially nowhere to live? I dont understand how someone can think that people in the US can just lul quit yer jerb whenever they want like they won't potentially face life-ruining consequences for them or the people relying on them. the worst that can happen is your life ends shorter than you were hoping for. do what you want with your life. if you want to get paid for keeping quiet about bad behavior, then do it. im just not supporting it and im astonished at how much support it receives Show nested quote +On July 30 2021 08:38 BisuDagger wrote:On July 30 2021 08:27 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 08:10 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 08:01 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:58 NewSunshine wrote:On July 30 2021 07:42 NonY wrote:On July 30 2021 07:31 KwarK wrote:
The option to walk away from shitty situations is not universal. Not everyone has the same safety net. that's the only option that's universal The ability to endure the consequences of walking away from a shitty situation is what's not universal, which in effect makes the ability to walk away not universal. I thought it was pretty straightforward. ?? nothing to endure when you're dead. suicide is the final comfort for anyone whose situation has become untenable. i thought THAT was obvious Is this a strawman? A suggestion? What about all the folks who didn't commit suicide? Come on, man. it's how i live my life. if i dont like a situation, i try to change it. if i fail to change it, i leave it. and ultimately i'd apply that to life itself. people can lead shitty lives if they want to. i just dont think the public should support them. i dont understand why so many people are so supportive of them. by their own accounts, the company is rife with misbehavior and filled with bystanders unwilling to risk their own necks to help. praising them for taking a risk with this walkout and signing that statement is such a joke because it wasnt really a risk at all. not even close to an individual taking a stand while entrenched in an awful culture. I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying. I am trying to remain positive about this though and hope this is not only a turning point for victims, but for those who chose to do or say nothing while it was happening. 100% agree f those people for not being proactive at a time when they were needed, but we can’t spend all day being angry at cowards. We have to just hope that this is the spark that raises awareness and courage for those who lacked it in the past. The solidarity by others like TL.net is saying we see what happened and want you to know that we have your back when you make good and brave decisions on the behalf of others and yourself. true. it just seems weird to me in a situation. if a young man in a gang quits the gang and is trying to turn his life around, i'd be supportive of him. this situation strikes me as different though. i dont want to be manipulated into picking a side between the leadership and the employees when there are scumbags on both sides. if leadership would've just responded differently, this would've been so much simpler, but apparently they thought that denial was the best route to take to protect the company, which is their responsibility, and im in no position to judge that decision (though the response they drafted was obviously awful). so the employees instead take it upon themselves to respond in the way we'd want them to, but now it's not so simple to just throw support behind them i wish them the best of luck at improving the situation just for the sake of minimizing the number of future victims. but the values of the company as a game developer no longer match what i want from a game developer so i'd be just as happy with this being the beginning of the end of this company and talent continuing to leak out to join other studios If I'm to take your logic to an extreme, employees should protest sexual harassment that they know of by slitting their own throats on the doorstep of the studio, after all, if they cared they'd willingly give up their lives, because its only ending your live before maybe you thought it would. The underlying threads of logic I'm reading into some of these posts are really nihilistic, even for me On July 30 2021 10:16 Lmui wrote:
Leadership cultivates an environment, employees propagate it. If someone from Blizzard went to my workplace (precovid/WFH) and tried to pull off some of the shit they've done there, it would be immediately shot down as an unacceptable idea. The culture starts at the top, if there is no change in leadership, there is no change in the employees.
You've got to realize a lot of people are fresh out of college, or early in their career. If you let them continue a college frathouse, or have an environment where people can work in a frathouse, they will do that instead of having a "professional" environment.
Similarly, you've probably heard the role of HR is to protect the company. HR was probably neutered to simply a hiring role, if something like this could happen without repercussions. Even worse, in the leaked picture of the people involved with the Cosby Suite, there are literally HR people there. HR wasn't minimized, HR was in on it/actively did nothing. https://kotaku.com/inside-blizzard-developers-infamous-bill-cosby-suite-1847378762One ex-Blizzard source familiar with the people presented in the pictures identified an HR representative as one of the Blizzard employees present in the hotel room. Again this is the sort of stuff that does not matter at all. Who the fuck cares they made a bill cosby suite? It is a joke. Not the sort of joke I like. but it is still a joke and even if they meant it serious. Then still who the fuck cares. It does not harm anyone
Are you feigning ignorance as to what they did in that room(thus why they call it the Cosby Suite), or are you only looking as far as "Bill Cosby jokes are in poor taste but not illegal" when you decide it doesn't harm anyone?
I'm also interested in how you think you get to decide what is and isn't upsetting to other people, but I'll stick with the questions above for now.
On July 30 2021 10:47 Pascal1p wrote:
If... he is saying derogatory things about women, you bet you I am going to keep him. You betya that I will fire the women who cant work with him.
Actually, never mind. You've made yourself quite clear.
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The part about the pics/suicide was both sad and infuriating to read, were these events confirmed to have happened on Blizz's watch?
Letting stuff like this go on in the company without instantly confronting it head on is a massive failure on managements part, leadership should have stepped in right away. And in the likelihood that they didn't know about any of this (which i honestly find hard to believe).. that's also a failure on managements part for not knowing enough about the inner workings of their company.
Regardless, what this tells me is there was a major lack of character/integrity within the leadership roles.
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