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On July 27 2021 01:47 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2021 01:43 WombaT wrote:On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote:Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character. The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic. I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum: Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced. When were those said to be fair? Does it matter? I'd argue it does not, unless they disavowed those comments later. And that is in line with how our society views this topic. Time is a construct. It is not the movement of the clock that changes a mind, it is the movement of a mind.
Are you willing to stand for every single one of your 5153 posts made here in the last 10 years? I'm not. I've said a lot of shit I don't agree with any more.
"Time is a construct" is just a bad excuse. Time does, in fact, move forward, and people are not the same as they were 10 years ago (Thank god. I was an asshole back then... ok, still am to some degree). Digging up old posts and claim they are the current views of "moderators at TL" (Who all have their own, often conflicting, views on any given matter) is not an argument made in good faith.
Culture also changes with time. 20 years ago, "rape" was a perfectly normal word to use in gaming culture. 10 years ago, it was still in use, but slowly being phased out due to pushback. Nowadays, I'd say it's not an ok word to use any more. But that doesn't mean this was always the case. Holding people's previous opinions which aligned with the culture back then against them in the current climate is just counterproductive, and how we're getting these Twitter which hunts which are so popular nowadays.
So yes, it does matter
edit: Just looked it up. This post was made 11 years ago. If that is all the "dirt" you managed to dig up on TL moderators, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say they're doing a pretty good job all things considered
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On July 27 2021 13:54 Alpharius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote:Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character. The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic. I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum: Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced. Funny thing is, gaming culture is not in line with how society views this topic. It isn't up to any one person what is offensive and what it isn't, it is up to all of us. It's a democracy. If you choose to be out of line, there are consequences. For some, that means sitting alone in the lunch room, for others, that means sitting alone in jail. Blizzard is going to lose, so they will settle outside of court. I don't think this is the best example of misogyny, like, how did talking about 2 (presumably) men "raping" each other has anything to do with misogyny? People might even think it's promotion of homosexuality. People also use "rape" in sport, at least in football I know, so this is no way a gaming culture exclusive problem.
No.
Can we not start down this track please. "Men are just more inclined to work IT" because tech offices are still bro-y and misogynistic as fuck. The man:woman ratio at Blizzard is fucked up because it was a bunch of bros who had to have a talk to decide that women could even be in the company. You had examples posted in this thread from a woman who literally could not get credit for a single one of her own concepts, because the dude that works over her decided he wanted all the credit. Leadership-promoted company culture is responsible, as it always is.
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On July 27 2021 23:37 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2021 13:54 Alpharius wrote:On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote:Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character. The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic. I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum: Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced. Funny thing is, gaming culture is not in line with how society views this topic. It isn't up to any one person what is offensive and what it isn't, it is up to all of us. It's a democracy. If you choose to be out of line, there are consequences. For some, that means sitting alone in the lunch room, for others, that means sitting alone in jail. Blizzard is going to lose, so they will settle outside of court. I don't think this is the best example of misogyny, like, how did talking about 2 (presumably) men "raping" each other has anything to do with misogyny? People might even think it's promotion of homosexuality. People also use "rape" in sport, at least in football I know, so this is no way a gaming culture exclusive problem. No. Can we not start down this track please. "Men are just more inclined to work IT" because tech offices are still bro-y and misogynistic as fuck. The man:woman ratio at Blizzard is fucked up because it was a bunch of bros who had to have a talk to decide that women could even be in the company. You had examples posted in this thread from a woman who literally could not get credit for a single one of her own concepts, because the dude that works over her decided he wanted all the credit. Leadership-promoted company culture is responsible, as it always is.
This just isn't true. Women still aren't going into IT even in countries where office bromances aren't culturally a thing. Women are just currently, for reasons I can't explain, more attracted to other types of STEM degrees instead. And yes, for the most part, today you need a degree to work in IT (Or experience, which you won't get without a degree). I couldn't find any hard data on the specific number, but based on personal experiences of both myself and others across the world, you're likely looking at a 1/10 women to men ratio in the IT industry.
That does, of course, not excuse Blizzards behaviour. You don't get to behave like mindless bro-monkeys just because there's less women around. But just the fact that they have less women working for them isn't something they can be blamed for. I've worked at a company who spent money on ads, networking, student thesis's, etc, and still couldn't do better than 1/30 (They were all programmers tho. You can find more women working as sysadmins and in management)
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Northern Ireland26255 Posts
On July 27 2021 01:47 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2021 01:43 WombaT wrote:On July 27 2021 01:26 BronzeKnee wrote:Well Blizzard sticks guys like Demuslim in the booth when he talks about opponents raping each other... this is all in character. The video game industry and community has a long history of misogyny and defending those who are misogynistic. I mean, this is a quote from a longtime moderator of this forum: Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
And if you say anything about it, you get silenced. When were those said to be fair? Does it matter? I'd argue it does not, unless they disavowed those comments later. And that is in line with how our society views this topic. Time is a construct. It is not the movement of the clock that changes a mind, it is the movement of a mind. Show nested quote +Literally any comment thread about some kind of sexual abuse case will have a million and one comments embodying all the various aspects of victim blaming, to take one example. I'm not sure this has anything to do with anything. The fact people act poorly is not a reason to act poorly. My point was to show that this community was immersed in this, and that was shown with Demuslim's use of the word rape and the large community defense of it. And Blizzard was running the show in many events. It drips down from the top, so if you are shocked Blizzard is in legal hot water now, well this a good lesson for you. Where there is smoke, there is fire. There is years of evidence of Blizzard condoning poor behavior all over. So it wasn't just some random guy on a thread. It doesn't seem like you're here to deny what I said either. Just trying to deflect, but people are losing their job for offensive material they posted years ago on Facebook. And that is because most of us have realized, time is not a defense. Take responsibility.
Well absolutely, as you said, take responsibility.
I was quibbling when these comments were made because, not being a big Redditor etc or a browser of other areas the SC2 community hang out, of online communities I’m in it seems TL have taken tangible steps to change the environment for the better, so I just didn’t think that was the best illustrative example.
Agree with what you’re saying though, I’m not sure why people are shocked that a place can make games they love and also be a shit environment for women, the two things are totally separate.
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On July 27 2021 23:18 Excludos wrote:
Culture also changes with time. 20 years ago, "rape" was a perfectly normal word to use in gaming culture. 10 years ago, it was still in use, but slowly being phased out due to pushback. Nowadays, I'd say it's not an ok word to use any more. But that doesn't mean this was always the case. Holding people's previous opinions which aligned with the culture back then against them in the current climate is just counterproductive, and how we're getting these Twitter which hunts which are so popular nowadays.
Yeah, this was true for me as well. As teenagers 20+ years ago we used "rape" and "gay" (as an insult) all the time. I agree with the rest of your post too.
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United States43571 Posts
Rape is such a dumb hill to die on. Everyone agrees that it’s triggering to the part of the audience that has some sort of trauma related to sexual assault. There’s no debate over whether some people have been raped and whether some of those people don’t like to be reminded about that. We’re all in total agreement that rape happens.
We’re also in total agreement that in a free society you are free to remind people of their trauma with your words. You’re not responsible for other people’s trauma and there’s no legal obligation not to trigger people.
The whole argument is whether you should knowingly hurt part of your audience. On the one side you have people with basic human decency who, after being made aware that they’re hurting people and that it would cost nothing to stop, just stop. On the other you have sociopaths who are told that their words are hurting people and respond “I do know I’m hurting some of my audience but technically I’m allowed to do that so I’m just going to keep doing it”.
Like how hard is it to just not be an asshole. Intent isn’t a defence if you know you’re hurting people.
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I don't think anyone is currently arguing that we should be using the word rape the way it once was used. But the question is whether everyone who did use it that way when it was culturally common should be taken to account for it now.
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United States43571 Posts
On July 28 2021 03:32 Starlightsun wrote:
I don't think anyone is currently arguing that we should be using the word rape the way it once was used. But the question is whether everyone who did use it that way when it was culturally common should be taken to account for it now.
Then no. But it’s a perfectly valid source for the prevailing culture back then. If someone is alleging that someone was an ass a few years ago then a record of their actions a few years ago is absolutely valid, whether or not they’ve changed since then.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
Like how hard is it to just not be an asshole.
Extremely hard for many people. As somebody who is a minority in several major ways myself, most of the social groups that i've left online have been because of people who just can't stop being an asshole about it.
Probably an even bigger problem though has been the silent majority of people who see this happening but do absolutely nothing to step in, change or moderate it, even after it's made clear that it's an issue. If there is a problem with somebodies behavior and you're the one bringing it up, it's very easy for you to become the problem in their eyes. I see many reports of the same thing happening inside Blizzard.
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On July 27 2021 01:25 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2021 00:40 Purressure wrote:On July 27 2021 00:06 NewSunshine wrote:On July 26 2021 21:23 BadBorz1 wrote:
This is bullshit, they like to attack big companies to steal them (legally) money. Yes, because there's no possibility that Blizzard might have a culture problem, and there's no possibility that people throughout the company experienced serious harassment and discrimination. It must be bad actors looking to take Blizzard's money. There's no other explanation for a harassment and discrimination lawsuit. If your angle is to vilify the victims of massive systemic issues at Blizzard and paint them as malicious actors bent on destroying poor innocent Blizzard, you can fuck off with that shit right now. I'm surprised you haven't been warned for that reply just yet but man, some people really do need to be talked to in a more brutal way. I am not apologetic in the least for saying what I have. When it comes to abuse within structures of power, I take Blizzard's company hierarchy at face value: executives have all the power over rank and file employees. I side with the stories of victims because I find it much more believable that someone with no power is abused by someone with power than the other way around. And believe it or not, money is not a motivator for everything.
Didn't expect you to explain yourself to be honest, my comment was aimed at the fact people get warnings for less. I wouldn't be apologetic either since I agree.
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ActiBlizz walkout planned for tomorrow in response to this whole situation,
They even have demands which is great to see.
+ Show Spoiler +
Ending mandatory arbitration clauses in contracts, and publishing data about relative employee compensation, promotion rates, and salary ranges are ones Im very interested in since they're concrete things that ActiBlizz would have a hard time fucking up, intentionally or otherwise.
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If one has to keep staging walkout's perhaps it is time to Unionize.
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On July 28 2021 07:00 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
If one has to keep staging walkout's perhaps it is time to Unionize.
Now that'd be amazing.
Game industry has been needing that for a very very long time
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On July 27 2021 03:43 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2021 22:06 TentativePanda wrote:
Nerds don’t know how to be around women Sorry if I missed a joke or sarcasm, but this isn't a "nerd" problem as it is a toxic culture problem Stereotypically "un-nerdy" organizations (like sports teams) have also had similar scandals of sexual harassment / abuse as well. Once an organization lets the first "bad apple" or incident slide, it sets a precedent and message to the entire group to keep doing stuff like that
I think it has more to do with being an industry that is a dream destination for many people. Any kind of entertainment (sports, music, movies, videogames), fashion and some other glamorized industry are full of stories where people are willing to work longer hours for smaller pay under an abusive work environment versus doing a similar job in a boring industry.
Did some light browsing and saw anecdotes of some people staying at Blizzard longer than they should have because they really loved the job and their non-asshole coworkers. Some who left the company still consider going back even after all that happened.
I live in California and can tell you that companies like the one I work for frequently lose employees to companies with shittier work environments just because they are more exciting.
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Regarding DeMusliM's use of "rape" on broadcast, if it wasn't pointed out already, I found it very questionable that DeMusliM chose to adopt the <Method> tag basically immediately after the entire WoW raiding roster resigned out of protest [to form their own guild <Echo>] of Method's upper management knowingly harboring a [criminal] sex predator/groomer of underaged girls (Josh). I know that he did it out of a desire to support his fellow Brits, but as a prominent figure in the Starcraft 2 scene, I felt that it cast a distasteful pall over the entire SC2 community; that we do not support the victims of sexual assault or take their stories seriously. Perhaps it is too much to pin all of that on one man, but as part of the greater SC2 community, I felt personally let down by DeMusliM's hasty decision to adopt the <Method> clan tag. We should never condemn someone based on one questionable action, but when placed in the context of their history of actions, I am seeing a pattern begin to emerge here, just as with Activision-Blizzard.
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My sig keeps getting better with age. 
On July 28 2021 07:05 andrewlt wrote:
I live in California and can tell you that companies like the one I work for frequently lose employees to companies with shittier work environments just because they are more exciting.
This is a "reality of the marketplace" thing.
i've taken jobs in crappy environments because i knew i could gain a skill that wouldn't be offered to me in a better structured work environment. Often its because the business unit//department is growing too fast. i know others who've done the exact same thing i've done.
i know sales guys who worked in places with a fucked up culture and also a fucked up bonus structure they knew they could exploit. many aspects of the job were garbage... but they knew they could manipulate their commission levels. so they sucked it up .. put up with the BS and raked in the cash.
I put up with the crap and learned everything i could; My team pulled off the project and we put a bow on it. I added it to my portfolio and then I GTFO-ed.
lots of people do exactly that and have done it for decades. With today's whiney suckhole grievance culture people want a hero badge for doing it. meh.
Some of the whining i'm hearing makes me wonder how much life experience the whiners have. Welcome to the real world boys.
For years, Blizzard vet Samwise Didier referenced this speech in a 1992 movie in his twitter header. I wonder if he took it down? Any how, he specifically referenced Baldwin's catch phrase "A B C". This is Blizzard and this is the real world; this world ain't changing just because we showed up ~30 years ago.
+ Show Spoiler +
Chris Metzen is denying he knew anything about Alex's misconduct.
I think Activision is going to feed a Blizzard employed sacrificial lamb to the rage mob. My guess is J. Allen Brack will be forced out. What has Blizzard made and released since Brack started in October 2018 ?
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On July 28 2021 07:00 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
If one has to keep staging walkout's perhaps it is time to Unionize.
America really really need to start working on empowering unions again. Of course, their disenfranchise wasn't an accident in the first place.
It is worthy to note, however, that the systematic issues we're seeing in the AAA industry doesn't stop at the border. CDPR, Ubisoft and Konami all have a history of mistreating their employees in various ways
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On July 28 2021 06:56 Zambrah wrote:ActiBlizz walkout planned for tomorrow in response to this whole situation, They even have demands which is great to see. + Show Spoiler +Ending mandatory arbitration clauses in contracts, and publishing data about relative employee compensation, promotion rates, and salary ranges are ones Im very interested in since they're concrete things that ActiBlizz would have a hard time fucking up, intentionally or otherwise.
And do you think these demands if met would lead to them making better games? Did they have these policies in place when they made their greatest games during the golden era? Interesting.
For Development section hiring - Remove Identifying information and then pick the people with the best portfolios, the best demos.Blizzard deserves to have the best working there, whatever their race or colour or sexual orientation.Removing identifying information allows for far less discrimination.
Audit and get rid of anyone found to have been sexually inappropriate.Do more work in-house again instead of dishing off to third parties like the remastered games and the new Diablo mobile game.If a game isn't good enough to release, don't.
The demands they've made there won't necessarily lead to better games, If some people are paid more because they are better workers and more skilled then so be it.
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On July 28 2021 17:56 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2021 06:56 Zambrah wrote:ActiBlizz walkout planned for tomorrow in response to this whole situation, They even have demands which is great to see. + Show Spoiler +Ending mandatory arbitration clauses in contracts, and publishing data about relative employee compensation, promotion rates, and salary ranges are ones Im very interested in since they're concrete things that ActiBlizz would have a hard time fucking up, intentionally or otherwise. And do you think these demands if met would lead to them making better games? Did they have these policies in place when they made their greatest games during the golden era? Interesting.
Why does that matter? Just because something didn't need fixing 30 years ago doesn't mean it doesn't need fixing now
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On July 28 2021 18:42 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2021 17:56 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 28 2021 06:56 Zambrah wrote:ActiBlizz walkout planned for tomorrow in response to this whole situation, They even have demands which is great to see. + Show Spoiler +Ending mandatory arbitration clauses in contracts, and publishing data about relative employee compensation, promotion rates, and salary ranges are ones Im very interested in since they're concrete things that ActiBlizz would have a hard time fucking up, intentionally or otherwise. And do you think these demands if met would lead to them making better games? Did they have these policies in place when they made their greatest games during the golden era? Interesting. Why does that matter? Just because something didn't need fixing 30 years ago doesn't mean it doesn't need fixing now
Not to mention that those things are completely unrelated. Making better games isn't or shouldn't be the only priority here.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7UtR48VoAARXvk?format=png&name=medium)
