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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On June 18 2025 07:53 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 07:46 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 06:48 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 06:38 Billyboy wrote:
The same thing was said about North Korea as well, and it was not true until it was. I think that the vast majority of the 16 million Jews, even the 12 or so million Zionists just want to live in peace. Most of the rest are of the understanding that 16 millions vs 2 billion goes poorly. But I'm sure some have fantasies of 10 generations from now taking down the Muslims, or God himself doing it during the apocalypse.
And in this one I don't think Netanyahu is dumb. He is about himself and taking out Israel's greatest enemy might be the only thing to keep him out of jail and even in power.
There is no connexion between your answer and what I said, so it is unclear to me why you posted any of this. On June 18 2025 06:38 WombaT wrote:
Maybe they are lying, who knows? I just don’t really agree with conflating the ‘Coalition of the Willing’ and Iraq, to this current scenario between Israel and Iran.
Iraq offered fuck all threat to those that attacked it, considerably less so with this one.
Iran is consistently, openly hostile. And it will have nukes, the question is merely when, not if, assuming no outside intervention.
Other nations in the region have somewhat normalised and formed some kind of standard relationship with Israel, even if it’s not always a warm one. Iran? Nah. Not really their thing.
I think Netanyahu is right for once. Albeit for completely the wrong reasons, and for no altruistic reason whatsoever.
Either Iran is irreparably fucked for a generation or two and the state and its behaviour is accurately reflective of its populace. Or it isn’t and regime change might be beneficial. A test I might add I think Israel also could do with passing.
As with tankie rhetoric on the Ukrainian conflict I personally jump off the ‘leftist’ train when it ends up at the ‘Israel can’t do anything about Iran’ station. Although I still reserve plenty of judgement when it comes to specifically what Israel chooses to do. The populace of Iran isn't in a fixed state. When people are under threat, they lean more toward authoritarianism than they would otherwise. You can observe that in Europe where we are under no threat at all but just presenting immigrants as dangerous and ready to great replace us is leading a bunch of our populations to vote for far right freaks. They're not going to be fucked because their government is reflective of the populace, they're going to be fucked because that's how these things tend to go. But hey, to be honest we could do with a wave of iranian immigration so that our far rights get elected quicker, it's not like we're doing anything with the time we have. I thought it was easy enough to make the connection but here you go. The NK part was to show that just because people have been saying they are close for a long time does not mean that they are wrong now. The UN watchdog said something along the lines of a do not think they were days a way but also not years, hard to give an exact time frame. I have no idea how close they were (and you have no idea either) but they were trying to get one and that Israel thought this was the best time is realistic. It doesn't mean they would have it tomorrow, it means that they had the had intelligence in place to do what they have done. The rest was about why I think your theory that they are just out to kill some Muslims makes no sense. I also think you probably understood that was what I meant. Israel didn't think it was the best time, they thought the best time was 30 years ago, then 29 years ago, then 28 years ago, then 27 years ago, then 26 years ago, then 25 years ago, and so on. I am having a hard time understanding how you don't see how that could possibly be relevant. There is no connexion between what you perceive the views of the average Israeli to be and the reason why the Netanyahu government is doing what it's doing. You can use a very simple metric to check this: notice how a bunch of things are happening under Trump in the US, and those things are... all of them? 95% of them? unpopular, and yet they're happening anyway.
That’s just how power and structures built around it work, no? You may have a 40/60 split on an issue. If the 40 are zealots and the 60 don’t really care beyond being asked and put on the spot, the minority position can win. Likewise when we start factoring in other aspects of the auld power equation.
People who really hate migrants are rioting in my country right now, thankfully it’s dying down. The majority aren’t really down with that, thankfully. But most wouldn’t go to such lengths.
Polling isn’t great at capturing that, even when they try to account for it.
So, entirely arbitrary numbers to go back to my 40/60, maybe the 40% are absolutely hardcore about it, and the 60 in opposition. The 40% can still influence government policy disproportionately
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On June 18 2025 08:08 Billyboy wrote:
It is relevant, the same as it was that SK thought the best time was 30 years ago, then 29, then 28, the 27, the 26, then 25.
Did that happen?
On June 18 2025 08:08 Billyboy wrote:
Of course what the Israeli's think matters, Israel is a democracy. It does not mean they can stop it today, but Netanyahu is intelligent and self interested, he wants to remain in power and more importantly out of jail. things happening in the US are popular with like 40% of the population or whatever, Trumps numbers have barely dropped. Tons of people love what he is doing with immigration, his base is largely unchanged. Could him going back on his no war talk matter? Maybe, but going back on the 1000 other things has not. I have no idea where you are getting the 95% number from? Like some single issue that is low on Americans priorities or what?
I am sorry to say that you have a deep misunderstanding of how democracy works. When the ruler of a democracy decides to do something, he doesn't stop and check whether the population approves of it or not, especially not in a representative democracy. You absolutely cannot conclude that because the majority of people think something in a democracy, therefore that's what the government is doing, we have an absolute plethora of examples of that not happening, in every democracy in the world.
- 59% of Americans disapprove of the administration’s tariff increases, while 39% approve.
- 55% disapprove of the cuts the administration is making to federal departments and agencies, while 44% approve.
( 51% say the cuts will make the government run worse, while 36% say they will make the government run better.
48% expect the cuts will cost Americans money in the long run. Fewer (41%) say the cuts will save money. )
- 78% say the Trump administration should have to follow a federal court’s ruling, rising to 88% if the Supreme Court were to issue the ruling.
( 91% of Democrats and 65% of Republicans say the administration would need to stop an action if a federal court ruled it illegal, rising to 95% of Democrats and 82% of Republicans for a Supreme Court ruling. )
https://ibb.co/B5zj6k50
If we look past Trump, Americans have been pro-choice to the tune of like 75% to 25%, and in favor of more background checks before buying a gun in the 90%, and, you know, that didn't happen.
On June 18 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:
So, entirely arbitrary numbers to go back to my 40/60, maybe the 40% are absolutely hardcore about it, and the 60 in opposition. The 40% can still influence government policy disproportionately
Okay, and therefore the views of an average person don't correlate to what is policy, which is my point.
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On June 18 2025 08:25 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 08:08 Billyboy wrote:
It is relevant, the same as it was that SK thought the best time was 30 years ago, then 29, then 28, the 27, the 26, then 25.
Did that happen? Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 08:08 Billyboy wrote:
Of course what the Israeli's think matters, Israel is a democracy. It does not mean they can stop it today, but Netanyahu is intelligent and self interested, he wants to remain in power and more importantly out of jail. things happening in the US are popular with like 40% of the population or whatever, Trumps numbers have barely dropped. Tons of people love what he is doing with immigration, his base is largely unchanged. Could him going back on his no war talk matter? Maybe, but going back on the 1000 other things has not. I have no idea where you are getting the 95% number from? Like some single issue that is low on Americans priorities or what?
I am sorry to say that you have a deep misunderstanding of how democracy works. When the ruler of a democracy decides to do something, he doesn't stop and check whether the population approves of it or not, especially not in a representative democracy. You absolutely cannot conclude that because the majority of people think something in a democracy, therefore that's what the government is doing, we have an absolute plethora of examples of that not happening, in every democracy in the world. - 59% of Americans disapprove of the administration’s tariff increases, while 39% approve. - 55% disapprove of the cuts the administration is making to federal departments and agencies, while 44% approve. ( 51% say the cuts will make the government run worse, while 36% say they will make the government run better. 48% expect the cuts will cost Americans money in the long run. Fewer (41%) say the cuts will save money. ) - 78% say the Trump administration should have to follow a federal court’s ruling, rising to 88% if the Supreme Court were to issue the ruling. ( 91% of Democrats and 65% of Republicans say the administration would need to stop an action if a federal court ruled it illegal, rising to 95% of Democrats and 82% of Republicans for a Supreme Court ruling. ) https://ibb.co/B5zj6k50If we look past Trump, Americans have been pro-choice to the tune of like 75% to 25%, and in favor of more background checks before buying a gun in the 90%, and, you know, that didn't happen. Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:
So, entirely arbitrary numbers to go back to my 40/60, maybe the 40% are absolutely hardcore about it, and the 60 in opposition. The 40% can still influence government policy disproportionately Okay, and therefore the views of an average person don't correlate to what is policy, which is my point.
Yes it did happen, NK got the nuke. No it didn't happen that SK attacked. My point is that Israel saying Iran is close to a nuke is not automatically false because they have been saying it for a while. And that they don't want to repeat the mistake SK made.
None of those numbers rise to the 95% you suggested and most are not close. Next most of the stuff you posted about are clearly not as important as other things because Trump openly campaigned on Tariffs, anti abortion laws and less restrictions on gun use. Apparently you are the one with the deep misunderstanding. Not just of democracy but of my point, which was easy so that on you being angry and not taking the time to think about, the consequence comes in the next election. And for the Israeli leader it does not just mean he does not get it, it means jail time so the stakes are high!
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On June 18 2025 08:53 Billyboy wrote:
Yes it did happen, NK got the nuke. No it didn't happen that SK attacked. My point is that Israel saying Iran is close to a nuke is not automatically false because they have been saying it for a while. And that they don't want to repeat the mistake SK made.
I was very clearly asking if SK said that we should bomb NK because they're about to get a nuke for 30 years before the year they got the nuke.
It is not automatically false that Iran is about to get the nuke just because Israel already said it every year for 30 years, it just makes it more likely that it is false, as there is a pattern of it being false in the recent past by the same people for (presumably) the same reason. You can then couple it with the fact that US intelligence doesn't seem to think that it was true. When something is unlikely, it is okay to lean toward thinking it is not true. If it ends up being true anyway, you'll just have been wrong. Or maybe not even, maybe it was unlikely and you just got unlucky that it's true. Either way it's not a big deal.
On June 18 2025 08:53 Billyboy wrote:
None of those numbers rise to the 95% you suggested and most are not close. Next most of the stuff you posted about are clearly not as important as other things because Trump openly campaigned on Tariffs, anti abortion laws and less restrictions on gun use. Apparently you are the one with the deep misunderstanding. Not just of democracy but of my point, which was easy so that on you being angry and not taking the time to think about, the consequence comes in the next election. And for the Israeli leader it does not just mean he does not get it, it means jail time so the stakes are high!
I (obviously) claimed that 95% of his policies are unpopular, not that his policies rise to the level of 95% unpopularity.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Sure, I wouldn’t disagree. But how fervently they’re felt hugely influences things. How much folks are willing to act upon them also.
I’m not disputing the democratic deficit at all.
I just think ‘poll says x’ is a useful data point, but it’s not the whole picture is all. Although sometimes it is.
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On June 18 2025 09:07 WombaT wrote:
Sure, I wouldn’t disagree. But how fervently they’re felt hugely influences things. How much folks are willing to act upon them also.
I’m not disputing the democratic deficit at all.
I just think ‘poll says x’ is a useful data point, but it’s not the whole picture is all. Although sometimes it is.
I agree.
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Iran is now claiming to have gained control of Israeli airspace.
TEHRAN (Tasnim) – The Iranian Armed Forces employed a new missile in the latest round of retaliatory strikes against the Zionist regime on Tuesday, the spokesperson for the Defense Ministry of Iran said.
In comments at a televised interview on Tuesday, Brigadier General Alireza Talaee Nik said Iran will fully exploit its offensive capacities against the Zionist enemy after it imposed a war against the country.
Lauding the successful retaliatory strikes by the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) and highlighting the advanced homegrown weapons at Iran’s disposal, the general said the Armed Force fired a new missile at the Israeli targets in a fresh wave of attacks on Tuesday.
The Israeli enemy failed to intercept the advanced Iranian missile that was employed for the first time, he stated, saying the Zionists have admitted that they could not even detect the missile before it rained down.
The fact that one of the Zionist regime’s security and intelligence centers was hit by Iran’s guided missile despite being guarded by heavy layers of air defenses assisted by the US reveals the Israeli regime’s misery, the spokesman added.
General Talaee Nik explained that the Israeli regime’s endurance will diminish gradually as Iran utilizes advanced weapons, saying, “The Zionist enemy is strategically unable to continue a strategic war and its back will break as time goes by.”
He also assured the Iranian people that more surprising achievements of the Armed Forces will appear in the future.
https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2025/06/17/3337219/new-iranian-missile-used-against-israeli-regime-spokesman
???? lol
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On June 18 2025 09:29 Mohdoo wrote:Iran is now claiming to have gained control of Israeli airspace. Show nested quote +
TEHRAN (Tasnim) – The Iranian Armed Forces employed a new missile in the latest round of retaliatory strikes against the Zionist regime on Tuesday, the spokesperson for the Defense Ministry of Iran said.
In comments at a televised interview on Tuesday, Brigadier General Alireza Talaee Nik said Iran will fully exploit its offensive capacities against the Zionist enemy after it imposed a war against the country.
Lauding the successful retaliatory strikes by the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) and highlighting the advanced homegrown weapons at Iran’s disposal, the general said the Armed Force fired a new missile at the Israeli targets in a fresh wave of attacks on Tuesday.
The Israeli enemy failed to intercept the advanced Iranian missile that was employed for the first time, he stated, saying the Zionists have admitted that they could not even detect the missile before it rained down.
The fact that one of the Zionist regime’s security and intelligence centers was hit by Iran’s guided missile despite being guarded by heavy layers of air defenses assisted by the US reveals the Israeli regime’s misery, the spokesman added.
General Talaee Nik explained that the Israeli regime’s endurance will diminish gradually as Iran utilizes advanced weapons, saying, “The Zionist enemy is strategically unable to continue a strategic war and its back will break as time goes by.”
He also assured the Iranian people that more surprising achievements of the Armed Forces will appear in the future.
https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2025/06/17/3337219/new-iranian-missile-used-against-israeli-regime-spokesman???? lol
They seem to just be repeating Israeli claims but as their own. It has to be to try to project power to their own people who don't trust MSM? I'm not sure, but it is sure odd.
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On June 18 2025 09:05 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 08:53 Billyboy wrote:
Yes it did happen, NK got the nuke. No it didn't happen that SK attacked. My point is that Israel saying Iran is close to a nuke is not automatically false because they have been saying it for a while. And that they don't want to repeat the mistake SK made. I was very clearly asking if SK said that we should bomb NK because they're about to get a nuke for 30 years before the year they got the nuke. It is not automatically false that Iran is about to get the nuke just because Israel already said it every year for 30 years, it just makes it more likely that it is false, as there is a pattern of it being false in the recent past by the same people for (presumably) the same reason. You can then couple it with the fact that US intelligence doesn't seem to think that it was true. When something is unlikely, it is okay to lean toward thinking it is not true. If it ends up being true anyway, you'll just have been wrong. Or maybe not even, maybe it was unlikely and you just got unlucky that it's true. Either way it's not a big deal. Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 08:53 Billyboy wrote:
None of those numbers rise to the 95% you suggested and most are not close. Next most of the stuff you posted about are clearly not as important as other things because Trump openly campaigned on Tariffs, anti abortion laws and less restrictions on gun use. Apparently you are the one with the deep misunderstanding. Not just of democracy but of my point, which was easy so that on you being angry and not taking the time to think about, the consequence comes in the next election. And for the Israeli leader it does not just mean he does not get it, it means jail time so the stakes are high!
I (obviously) claimed that 95% of his policies are unpopular, not that his policies rise to the level of 95% unpopularity.
Neither of us, and almost no one on the planet is going to know how close they are. But everyone seems to agree that they were working towards one and relatively close. What is your number for when a preventive attack is correct? Must be under 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? How does exactly how long until they have it change anything?
I'm going to let the other one drop. I think people who follow Donald Trump know that he and his policies, especially around immigration, guns and abortion are very popular with Republicans, and are also what he campaigned on doing. How that at all relates to your greater point that they are just trying to kill Muslims in spite of all the evidence that they are trying to do something else very specific is beyond me.
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On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
Neither of us, and almost no one on the planet is going to know how close they are. But everyone seems to agree that they were working towards one and relatively close. What is your number for when a preventive attack is correct? Must be under 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? How does exactly how long until they have it change anything?
Well there were negociations happening right at this moment, right? So presumably in order for the need to bomb them to supersede those negociations, they would have had to be pretty close to finishing the nuke, right? This is also not at all what you were mad at me for at first, you are completely changing your argument.
On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
I'm going to let the other one drop. I think people who follow Donald Trump know that he and his policies, especially around immigration, guns and abortion are very popular with Republicans, and are also what he campaigned on doing. How that at all relates to your greater point that they are just trying to kill Muslims in spite of all the evidence that they are trying to do something else very specific is beyond me.
I agree! The opinion of average people has zero relation to what a leader is doing, and by extension the opinion of average Israelis has zero relation to what Netanyahu is doing and/or why he's doing it, it is absolutely beyond me that we're discussing this.
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On June 18 2025 10:03 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
Neither of us, and almost no one on the planet is going to know how close they are. But everyone seems to agree that they were working towards one and relatively close. What is your number for when a preventive attack is correct? Must be under 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? How does exactly how long until they have it change anything? Well there were negociations happening right at this moment, right? So presumably in order for the need to bomb them to supersede those negociations, they would have had to be pretty close to finishing the nuke, right? This is also not at all what you were mad at me for at first, you are completely changing your argument. Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
I'm going to let the other one drop. I think people who follow Donald Trump know that he and his policies, especially around immigration, guns and abortion are very popular with Republicans, and are also what he campaigned on doing. How that at all relates to your greater point that they are just trying to kill Muslims in spite of all the evidence that they are trying to do something else very specific is beyond me. I agree! The opinion of average people has zero relation to what a leader is doing, and by extension the opinion of average Israelis has zero relation to what Netanyahu is doing and/or why he's doing it, it is absolutely beyond me that we're discussing this.
Answer, how close? Stop with the fucking dancing around, you like to play these games to you can move the target.
What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals?
Why are you mad at this?
edit: also NK was negotiating right up until they had a nuke. Stop pretending to be so naïve when it fits your agenda. This is the Islamic Republic of Iran. Why the hell do you give a evil theocracy that is against everything you claim to be for the benefit of every doubt?
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On June 18 2025 10:13 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 10:03 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
Neither of us, and almost no one on the planet is going to know how close they are. But everyone seems to agree that they were working towards one and relatively close. What is your number for when a preventive attack is correct? Must be under 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? How does exactly how long until they have it change anything? Well there were negociations happening right at this moment, right? So presumably in order for the need to bomb them to supersede those negociations, they would have had to be pretty close to finishing the nuke, right? This is also not at all what you were mad at me for at first, you are completely changing your argument. On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
I'm going to let the other one drop. I think people who follow Donald Trump know that he and his policies, especially around immigration, guns and abortion are very popular with Republicans, and are also what he campaigned on doing. How that at all relates to your greater point that they are just trying to kill Muslims in spite of all the evidence that they are trying to do something else very specific is beyond me. I agree! The opinion of average people has zero relation to what a leader is doing, and by extension the opinion of average Israelis has zero relation to what Netanyahu is doing and/or why he's doing it, it is absolutely beyond me that we're discussing this. Neb, I'm not going down this winding road with you because I know where it leads. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals? Why are you mad at this?
I have no issue at all. You asked me why I thought that the stated goal of this attack on Iran was a lie, and I answered why. You then proceeded to continue to answer with some nonsense, and I explained why it was nonsense.
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On June 18 2025 10:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 10:13 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:03 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
Neither of us, and almost no one on the planet is going to know how close they are. But everyone seems to agree that they were working towards one and relatively close. What is your number for when a preventive attack is correct? Must be under 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? How does exactly how long until they have it change anything? Well there were negociations happening right at this moment, right? So presumably in order for the need to bomb them to supersede those negociations, they would have had to be pretty close to finishing the nuke, right? This is also not at all what you were mad at me for at first, you are completely changing your argument. On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
I'm going to let the other one drop. I think people who follow Donald Trump know that he and his policies, especially around immigration, guns and abortion are very popular with Republicans, and are also what he campaigned on doing. How that at all relates to your greater point that they are just trying to kill Muslims in spite of all the evidence that they are trying to do something else very specific is beyond me. I agree! The opinion of average people has zero relation to what a leader is doing, and by extension the opinion of average Israelis has zero relation to what Netanyahu is doing and/or why he's doing it, it is absolutely beyond me that we're discussing this. Neb, I'm not going down this winding road with you because I know where it leads. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals? Why are you mad at this? I have no issue at all. You asked me why I thought that the stated goal of this attack on Iran was a lie, and I answered why. You then proceeded to continue to answer with some nonsense, and I explained why it was nonsense.
You continue to dodge direct questions, or half answer. Your expectations from me are completely different than what you yourself do. Sadly the only logical conclusion I can come to is that you are so blinded by hate and prejudice that you ignore your values when it comes to anything related to Israel.
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On June 18 2025 10:23 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 10:14 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:13 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:03 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
Neither of us, and almost no one on the planet is going to know how close they are. But everyone seems to agree that they were working towards one and relatively close. What is your number for when a preventive attack is correct? Must be under 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? How does exactly how long until they have it change anything? Well there were negociations happening right at this moment, right? So presumably in order for the need to bomb them to supersede those negociations, they would have had to be pretty close to finishing the nuke, right? This is also not at all what you were mad at me for at first, you are completely changing your argument. On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
I'm going to let the other one drop. I think people who follow Donald Trump know that he and his policies, especially around immigration, guns and abortion are very popular with Republicans, and are also what he campaigned on doing. How that at all relates to your greater point that they are just trying to kill Muslims in spite of all the evidence that they are trying to do something else very specific is beyond me. I agree! The opinion of average people has zero relation to what a leader is doing, and by extension the opinion of average Israelis has zero relation to what Netanyahu is doing and/or why he's doing it, it is absolutely beyond me that we're discussing this. Neb, I'm not going down this winding road with you because I know where it leads. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals? Why are you mad at this? I have no issue at all. You asked me why I thought that the stated goal of this attack on Iran was a lie, and I answered why. You then proceeded to continue to answer with some nonsense, and I explained why it was nonsense. You continue to dodge direct questions, or half answer. Your expectations from me are completely different than what you yourself do. Sadly the only logical conclusion I can come to is that you are so blinded by hate and prejudice that you ignore your values when it comes to anything related to Israel.
As a general rule I don't really care what you think about me (or pretty much anyone or anything else, really).
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On June 18 2025 10:25 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 10:23 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:14 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:13 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:03 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
Neither of us, and almost no one on the planet is going to know how close they are. But everyone seems to agree that they were working towards one and relatively close. What is your number for when a preventive attack is correct? Must be under 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? How does exactly how long until they have it change anything? Well there were negociations happening right at this moment, right? So presumably in order for the need to bomb them to supersede those negociations, they would have had to be pretty close to finishing the nuke, right? This is also not at all what you were mad at me for at first, you are completely changing your argument. On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
I'm going to let the other one drop. I think people who follow Donald Trump know that he and his policies, especially around immigration, guns and abortion are very popular with Republicans, and are also what he campaigned on doing. How that at all relates to your greater point that they are just trying to kill Muslims in spite of all the evidence that they are trying to do something else very specific is beyond me. I agree! The opinion of average people has zero relation to what a leader is doing, and by extension the opinion of average Israelis has zero relation to what Netanyahu is doing and/or why he's doing it, it is absolutely beyond me that we're discussing this. Neb, I'm not going down this winding road with you because I know where it leads. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals? Why are you mad at this? I have no issue at all. You asked me why I thought that the stated goal of this attack on Iran was a lie, and I answered why. You then proceeded to continue to answer with some nonsense, and I explained why it was nonsense. You continue to dodge direct questions, or half answer. Your expectations from me are completely different than what you yourself do. Sadly the only logical conclusion I can come to is that you are so blinded by hate and prejudice that you ignore your values when it comes to anything related to Israel. As a general rule I don't really care what you think about me (or pretty much anyone or anything else, really).
Congrats, but seems odd then that you are scared to answer straight forward questions.
What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals?
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On June 18 2025 10:36 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 10:25 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:23 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:14 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:13 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:03 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
Neither of us, and almost no one on the planet is going to know how close they are. But everyone seems to agree that they were working towards one and relatively close. What is your number for when a preventive attack is correct? Must be under 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? How does exactly how long until they have it change anything? Well there were negociations happening right at this moment, right? So presumably in order for the need to bomb them to supersede those negociations, they would have had to be pretty close to finishing the nuke, right? This is also not at all what you were mad at me for at first, you are completely changing your argument. On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
I'm going to let the other one drop. I think people who follow Donald Trump know that he and his policies, especially around immigration, guns and abortion are very popular with Republicans, and are also what he campaigned on doing. How that at all relates to your greater point that they are just trying to kill Muslims in spite of all the evidence that they are trying to do something else very specific is beyond me. I agree! The opinion of average people has zero relation to what a leader is doing, and by extension the opinion of average Israelis has zero relation to what Netanyahu is doing and/or why he's doing it, it is absolutely beyond me that we're discussing this. Neb, I'm not going down this winding road with you because I know where it leads. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals? Why are you mad at this? I have no issue at all. You asked me why I thought that the stated goal of this attack on Iran was a lie, and I answered why. You then proceeded to continue to answer with some nonsense, and I explained why it was nonsense. You continue to dodge direct questions, or half answer. Your expectations from me are completely different than what you yourself do. Sadly the only logical conclusion I can come to is that you are so blinded by hate and prejudice that you ignore your values when it comes to anything related to Israel. As a general rule I don't really care what you think about me (or pretty much anyone or anything else, really). Congrats, but seems odd then that you are scared to answer straight forward questions.
I am not, you can ask me anything.
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On June 18 2025 10:37 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 10:36 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:25 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:23 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:14 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:13 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:03 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
Neither of us, and almost no one on the planet is going to know how close they are. But everyone seems to agree that they were working towards one and relatively close. What is your number for when a preventive attack is correct? Must be under 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? How does exactly how long until they have it change anything? Well there were negociations happening right at this moment, right? So presumably in order for the need to bomb them to supersede those negociations, they would have had to be pretty close to finishing the nuke, right? This is also not at all what you were mad at me for at first, you are completely changing your argument. On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
I'm going to let the other one drop. I think people who follow Donald Trump know that he and his policies, especially around immigration, guns and abortion are very popular with Republicans, and are also what he campaigned on doing. How that at all relates to your greater point that they are just trying to kill Muslims in spite of all the evidence that they are trying to do something else very specific is beyond me. I agree! The opinion of average people has zero relation to what a leader is doing, and by extension the opinion of average Israelis has zero relation to what Netanyahu is doing and/or why he's doing it, it is absolutely beyond me that we're discussing this. Neb, I'm not going down this winding road with you because I know where it leads. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals? Why are you mad at this? I have no issue at all. You asked me why I thought that the stated goal of this attack on Iran was a lie, and I answered why. You then proceeded to continue to answer with some nonsense, and I explained why it was nonsense. You continue to dodge direct questions, or half answer. Your expectations from me are completely different than what you yourself do. Sadly the only logical conclusion I can come to is that you are so blinded by hate and prejudice that you ignore your values when it comes to anything related to Israel. As a general rule I don't really care what you think about me (or pretty much anyone or anything else, really). Congrats, but seems odd then that you are scared to answer straight forward questions. I am not, you can ask me anything.
What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals?
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On June 18 2025 10:39 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 10:37 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:36 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:25 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:23 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:14 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:13 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:03 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
Neither of us, and almost no one on the planet is going to know how close they are. But everyone seems to agree that they were working towards one and relatively close. What is your number for when a preventive attack is correct? Must be under 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? How does exactly how long until they have it change anything? Well there were negociations happening right at this moment, right? So presumably in order for the need to bomb them to supersede those negociations, they would have had to be pretty close to finishing the nuke, right? This is also not at all what you were mad at me for at first, you are completely changing your argument. On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
I'm going to let the other one drop. I think people who follow Donald Trump know that he and his policies, especially around immigration, guns and abortion are very popular with Republicans, and are also what he campaigned on doing. How that at all relates to your greater point that they are just trying to kill Muslims in spite of all the evidence that they are trying to do something else very specific is beyond me. I agree! The opinion of average people has zero relation to what a leader is doing, and by extension the opinion of average Israelis has zero relation to what Netanyahu is doing and/or why he's doing it, it is absolutely beyond me that we're discussing this. Neb, I'm not going down this winding road with you because I know where it leads. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals? Why are you mad at this? I have no issue at all. You asked me why I thought that the stated goal of this attack on Iran was a lie, and I answered why. You then proceeded to continue to answer with some nonsense, and I explained why it was nonsense. You continue to dodge direct questions, or half answer. Your expectations from me are completely different than what you yourself do. Sadly the only logical conclusion I can come to is that you are so blinded by hate and prejudice that you ignore your values when it comes to anything related to Israel. As a general rule I don't really care what you think about me (or pretty much anyone or anything else, really). Congrats, but seems odd then that you are scared to answer straight forward questions. I am not, you can ask me anything. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals?
Opposing a fascist government who is already responsible for killing probably over a hundred thousand people isn't opposed to my values at all, it is in fact one of my core values. I am very strongly antifascist.
I am not impressed by your strategy of trying to paint my opposition to Israel as support for Iran, as that was the strategy that was used against the people who opposed the Iraq war. Why do you love Saddam so much? They didn't, obviously. I was a little too young to care about politics back then, but I still could tell that it was bullshit.
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On June 18 2025 10:41 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 10:39 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:37 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:36 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:25 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:23 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:14 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:13 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:03 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
Neither of us, and almost no one on the planet is going to know how close they are. But everyone seems to agree that they were working towards one and relatively close. What is your number for when a preventive attack is correct? Must be under 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? How does exactly how long until they have it change anything? Well there were negociations happening right at this moment, right? So presumably in order for the need to bomb them to supersede those negociations, they would have had to be pretty close to finishing the nuke, right? This is also not at all what you were mad at me for at first, you are completely changing your argument. On June 18 2025 09:54 Billyboy wrote:
I'm going to let the other one drop. I think people who follow Donald Trump know that he and his policies, especially around immigration, guns and abortion are very popular with Republicans, and are also what he campaigned on doing. How that at all relates to your greater point that they are just trying to kill Muslims in spite of all the evidence that they are trying to do something else very specific is beyond me. I agree! The opinion of average people has zero relation to what a leader is doing, and by extension the opinion of average Israelis has zero relation to what Netanyahu is doing and/or why he's doing it, it is absolutely beyond me that we're discussing this. Neb, I'm not going down this winding road with you because I know where it leads. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals? Why are you mad at this? I have no issue at all. You asked me why I thought that the stated goal of this attack on Iran was a lie, and I answered why. You then proceeded to continue to answer with some nonsense, and I explained why it was nonsense. You continue to dodge direct questions, or half answer. Your expectations from me are completely different than what you yourself do. Sadly the only logical conclusion I can come to is that you are so blinded by hate and prejudice that you ignore your values when it comes to anything related to Israel. As a general rule I don't really care what you think about me (or pretty much anyone or anything else, really). Congrats, but seems odd then that you are scared to answer straight forward questions. I am not, you can ask me anything. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals? Opposing a fascist government who is already responsible for killing probably hundreds of thousands of people isn't opposed to my values at all, it is in fact one of my core values. I am very strongly antifascist. I am not impressed by your strategy of trying to paint my opposition to Israel as support for Iran, as that was the strategy that was used against the people who opposed the Iraq war. Why do you love Saddam so much? They didn't, obviously. I was a little too young to care about politics back then, but I still could tell that it was bullshit.
In what ways is Israel more fascist than Iran?
This is war between Israel and Iran directly.
also, so much for the whole answering stuff. It didn't last one post.
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On June 18 2025 10:44 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 10:41 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:39 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:37 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:36 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:25 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:23 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:14 Nebuchad wrote:On June 18 2025 10:13 Billyboy wrote:On June 18 2025 10:03 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Well there were negociations happening right at this moment, right? So presumably in order for the need to bomb them to supersede those negociations, they would have had to be pretty close to finishing the nuke, right? This is also not at all what you were mad at me for at first, you are completely changing your argument.
[quote]
I agree! The opinion of average people has zero relation to what a leader is doing, and by extension the opinion of average Israelis has zero relation to what Netanyahu is doing and/or why he's doing it, it is absolutely beyond me that we're discussing this. Neb, I'm not going down this winding road with you because I know where it leads. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals? Why are you mad at this? I have no issue at all. You asked me why I thought that the stated goal of this attack on Iran was a lie, and I answered why. You then proceeded to continue to answer with some nonsense, and I explained why it was nonsense. You continue to dodge direct questions, or half answer. Your expectations from me are completely different than what you yourself do. Sadly the only logical conclusion I can come to is that you are so blinded by hate and prejudice that you ignore your values when it comes to anything related to Israel. As a general rule I don't really care what you think about me (or pretty much anyone or anything else, really). Congrats, but seems odd then that you are scared to answer straight forward questions. I am not, you can ask me anything. What is your real issue here? This is a peer on peer war right now. Iran is launching their missiles at Israel's residential areas. Israel is hitting military targets. They are clearly not jus trying to kill a bunch of Muslims. On top of that the Iranian government is one of the most repressive in the world, is expansionist, super anti women, crazily anti LGBQ, has made it worse for the people of multiple countries, has basically no redeeming qualities. What about them matches your socialist morals? Opposing a fascist government who is already responsible for killing probably hundreds of thousands of people isn't opposed to my values at all, it is in fact one of my core values. I am very strongly antifascist. I am not impressed by your strategy of trying to paint my opposition to Israel as support for Iran, as that was the strategy that was used against the people who opposed the Iraq war. Why do you love Saddam so much? They didn't, obviously. I was a little too young to care about politics back then, but I still could tell that it was bullshit. In what ways is Israel more fascist than Iran? This is war between Israel and Iran directly. also, so much for the whole answering stuff. It didn't last one post.
I do not believe that if two countries are fascistic and one is slightly less fascistic than the other, that means I have to support that country's fascistic actions.
It is unclear to me what you take issue with regarding that last comment.
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EPT
