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some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
Religious Jews might be well advised to follow the 75 good manners of Islam when dealing with Christians.
On December 07 2023 02:03 JimmiC wrote:.... Another example would be how some of our Communists wax poetic about the USSR, but seemingly completely ignore their genocide and ethnic cleansing of the jews (not to mention the Crimean Tatar), or China's current behavior. I'm all for pointing a critical eye. It just should be pointed at everyone. I'm not sure how many times I've said it (lots), but I'm against both the settlements and the ground invasion and bombing. .... https://www.marxists.org/subject/jewish/ch-left-anti-semitism.pdf
i learned the ultimate grand conspiracy to envelop them all from the majority italian-catholics of my high school.
Karl Marx is a jew. Ayn Rand is a jew. Both created dichotomy in world views, epistemology and political philosophies to artificially divide western civilization at every level.
From the posted article.
The frequent identification of Jews as the puppet-masters pulling the strings behind the conspiracy does not happen by accident. Instead, antisemitic conspiracy theories draw on age-old tropes about Jewish moneylenders, blood libel accusations and the Rothschilds, among others. These tropes were perhaps most famously summarised in the 19th century forgery, “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, which claims to document a meeting by an international Jewish conspiracy that is controlling world politics.
Let's face it guys... Alan Greenspan has been running the USA since 1987 
Of course, it doesn't help that during Alan Greenspan's tenure at the Fed many many in the mainstream media labelled him "The Most Powerful Man On Earth". OR "The Most Powerful Man in the USA". Does any one today say Jerome Powell is the most powerful man in the world? Of course not.. he is not jewish.
This is video game lore level story telling.
This is a pretty common take on Greenspan and the power he wields.
https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2000/12/hitchens-200012
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On December 07 2023 02:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
Antisemitism is brought on primarily by xenophobia, religious bigotry, and nationalism.
If you want to dig further you can mention the history of the far right explaining that the reason why material reality doesn't behave in the way that you would expect it to behave based on their ideology is because there's a grand conspiracy going on, that the Jews are responsible for, rather than because their ideology is insane. But this is already secondary, that group could have been anyone, the reason why it's the Jews is because of the prior history of xenophobia, religious bigotry, and nationalism.
You shouldn't really dig into how the Jews brought it on themselves. They didn't. Bigotries are in essence reactionary, not rational, and therefore the source of the bigotry is what the bigot thinks, not a real world circumstance.
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United States42237 Posts
The problem with destroying Hamas is not that people don’t want to destroy it, it’s finding a way to destroy it without just creating more Hamas. We all want to put out the fire but some people have concerns about smothering it with gasoline. It’s like the Taliban problem. The US didn’t change its mind on the Taliban after two decades, the US changed its mind on whether the US was any good at eradicating the Taliban.
Nobody on here looks at the baby killing rapists and thinks they’re freedom fighters. No matter how sympathetic to the overall plight you are, the baby killing rape part is over the line.
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On December 07 2023 03:12 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 02:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
Antisemitism is brought on primarily by xenophobia, religious bigotry, and nationalism.
My views can easily be labelled as religious bigotry.
I suspect Jesus Christ never existed. I do not think God can exist in human form. I do not get in people's faces about what I see as a rational Diest perspective. However, I know people who do. And, its a bad idea. They need to have better manners.
You see, from my perspective, I view myself as only being probably correct. This lowers any zealotry or dogmatism.
Unfortunately, in many religions each side believes they are absolutely 100% correct. This leads to avoidable conflict.
So I'm sitting across the table from a devout Christian who, in his view, has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. For me, I'm just avoiding the topic. The last thing I'm going to say is "hey moron Jesus Christ never existed". When you spill your coffee on the table it is a bad idea to say "Jesus `fucking` Christ I spilled my coffee"... try something like "for crying in the sink I spilled my coffee".
Now , is it some extra work to tip-toe around the feelings of Christians? Sure it is. However, Canada and the USA are heavily populated by Christians. Both countries let my family in when we were FUBAR-ed. So as a guest in these countries I respect the dignity of its citizens. None of my great grandfathers were compelled to fight as soldiers in WW2 in Europe. So , hey , let's just say ... I owe the Christians in Canada a favour or two.
Unfortunately, not all jews comport themselves as I do. in a perfect abstract world... they should not have to do so. We do not live in a perfect abstract world. In a perfect abstract world i'd be living in Russia and my family would have never left.
On December 07 2023 03:12 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 02:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
You shouldn't really dig into how the Jews brought it on themselves. They didn't. Bigotries are in essence reactionary, not rational, and therefore the source of the bigotry is what the bigot thinks, not a real world circumstance.
i'm not big on censorship. i'm exploring a topic freely and openly. sometimes one digs up some odd perspectives.
IMO,
Jews who get into it with Christians about deeply held religious beliefs are contributing to anti-semitism.
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United States42237 Posts
There’s decent textual evidence for Jesus the main existing and really no reason to doubt it. There are plenty of historical figures with less evidence to support them than multiple sources written by individuals from different groups within human memory of the events. As a matter of history he basically existed.
It’d also be weird if he didn’t exist, given the place and the period. At its simplest it’s a claim that around 30 AD there was a charismatic Jewish speaker who gained a popular following but was executed by the authorities for challenging their power. Not only is that a very normal thing to assert, there were a bunch of them. So the claim has to then be that sure, charismatic Jewish speakers in that period were a relatively common thing but the one we have the most evidence for wasn’t real.
Anyone doubting the historicity of Jesus has been smoking the Dawkins pipe too hard. Of the many issues with the story of Jesus the idea that there was a man wandering around Judea speaking to people isn’t the big one.
Instead the one to bring up is that after the resurrection Jesus canonically looked like a different guy. His followers didn’t recognize him afterwards. It was only when he broke bread in a very distinctive way that they knew Jesus used to do that they clued in that this stranger was actually Jesus. If you’re going to pick fights over Jesus then that’s a good starting point.
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On December 07 2023 03:34 KwarK wrote:
There’s decent textual evidence for Jesus the main existing and really no reason to doubt it. There are plenty of historical figures with less evidence to support them than multiple sources written by individuals from different groups within human memory of the events. As a matter of history he basically existed.
It’d also be weird if he didn’t exist, given the place and the period. At its simplest it’s a claim that around 30 AD there was a charismatic Jewish speaker who gained a popular following but was executed by the authorities for challenging their power. Not only is that a very normal thing to assert, there were a bunch of them. So the claim has to then be that sure, charismatic Jewish speakers in that period were a relatively common thing but the one we have the most evidence for wasn’t real.
Anyone doubting the historicity of Jesus has been smoking the Dawkins pipe too hard. Of the many issues with the story of Jesus the idea that there was a man wandering around Judea speaking to people isn’t the big one.
Instead the one to bring up is that after the resurrection Jesus canonically looked like a different guy. His followers didn’t recognize him afterwards. It was only when he broke bread in a very distinctive way that they knew Jesus used to do that they clued in that this stranger was actually Jesus. If you’re going to pick fights over Jesus then that’s a good starting point.
only a majority of historians believe he existed. Not all do.
it is an interesting debate. However, the biggest point of contention is whether God can exist in material form or not.
Back to the antisemitism point. In countries with a lot of pious Christians the best strat is to avoid the topic and not get into it in a vulgar manner. Theoretically , you may be vulgar.. its a bad long term strat. IMO, Long term vulgarity about deeply held religious beliefs contributes to anti-semitism.
Sometimes you'll hear people say that zero antisemitism must be the standard. This is impossible and also contributes to anti-semitism by creating a never ending cycle of back and forth push and pull between various groups.
IMO, on a social-political level, anti semitism is best mitigated and minimized by laissez faire capitalism.
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On December 07 2023 03:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 03:12 Nebuchad wrote:On December 07 2023 02:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
Antisemitism is brought on primarily by xenophobia, religious bigotry, and nationalism. My views can easily be labelled as religious bigotry. I suspect Jesus Christ never existed. I do not think God can exist in human form. I do not get in people's faces about what I see as a rational Diest perspective. However, I know people who do. And, its a bad idea. They need to have better manners. You see, from my perspective, I view myself as only being probably correct. This lowers any zealotry or dogmatism. Unfortunately, in many religions each side believes they are absolutely 100% correct. This leads to avoidable conflict. So I'm sitting across the table from a devout Christian who, in his view, has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. For me, I'm just avoiding the topic. The last thing I'm going to say is "hey moron Jesus Christ never existed". When you spill your coffee on the table it is a bad idea to say "Jesus `fucking` Christ I spilled my coffee"... try something like "for crying in the sink I spilled my coffee". Now , is it some extra work to tip-toe around the feelings of Christians? Sure it is. However, Canada and the USA are heavily populated by Christians. Both countries let my family in when we were FUBAR-ed. So as a guest in these countries I respect the dignity of its citizens. None of my great grandfathers were compelled to fight as soldiers in WW2 in Europe. So , hey , let's just say ... I owe the Christians in Canada a favour or two. Unfortunately, not all jews comport themselves as I do. in a perfect abstract world... they should not have to do so. We do not live in a perfect abstract world. In a perfect abstract world i'd be living in Russia and my family would have never left. Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 03:12 Nebuchad wrote:On December 07 2023 02:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
You shouldn't really dig into how the Jews brought it on themselves. They didn't. Bigotries are in essence reactionary, not rational, and therefore the source of the bigotry is what the bigot thinks, not a real world circumstance. i'm not big on censorship. i'm exploring a topic freely and openly. sometimes one digs up some odd perspectives. IMO, Jews who get into it with Christians about deeply held religious beliefs are contributing to anti-semitism.
When someone says "hey moron Jesus Christ never existed" to a devout christian the correct conclusion is that this someone is insensitive, not that his religious group is deserving of bigotry. The antisemitic person might rationalize in their mind that they became hateful because of their experiences with one or several individuals, but we're allowed to wonder whether it's cope; and it is.
You shouldn't do it because you're mistaken, not because I plan to censor you lol.
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On December 07 2023 02:39 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 02:24 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think theres an element of redundancy to this. Theres no point in stating over and over that SA sucks or that Hamas sucks, because there is no disagreement there. Israel has plenty defenders and sympathizers, and thus, there's a debate to be had. And hey, this is fair! Israeli treatment of palestinians is overall a much less black and white topic than saudi treatment of women/dissenting journalists. I also see more discussion on the topic of how to get rid of hamas (hard to know what to do, there) than on the issue of settlements (more universally condemned). There is plenty of disagreement on Hamas, people are just not being direct or logical with their assumptions. Here’s an example, and you have to imagine it is some one other than me asking this question because of… well you know. What should be done to Nazi sympathizers? What should be done to Hamas sympathizers? You would get two completely different answers. But if the question was is Hamas Nazi level bad you would have got a lot of yes’s. (Well that and a lot of Hamas and Nazis are not the exact same, but let’s leave out the strawmans for this example. People are unwilling to discuss what should be done about Hamas. And how do you do it without killing a bunch of civilians? It is a whole interesting and other topic that gets .01% of the attention. And it should because people also do not seem to be willing to confront that if you believe that Hamas is actually this horribly evil group , you wouldn’t want them left in charge of Palestinians. Like if Israel need the occupation, settlements outside of the short term end of the war, are the Palestinians any less oppressed? Especially the women?
Hamas are very evil, but Gaza/West bank is oppressed while Nazi Germany wasn't oppressed. Palestinians are oppressed, Germany wasn't. Palestinians don't have any way out of the oppression, whereas Germans never needed a way out of anything to begin with.
There's a clear difference in the level of evil coming out of Nazi Germany and the evil coming out of the Palestine regions. Hamas is a consequence of resistance being impossible against an oppressor, Nazi Germany was a consequence of a quest for total domination over all other nations and races.
Furthermore, Nazi Germany was extremely powerful and extremely dangerous. Hamas doesn't even have a tiny fraction of that same power and they're nowhere near as dangerous.
These are the reasons why you get very different answers to the question about what should be done about Hamas/Nazi sympathizers. It matters not only how evil the evil people are, but also what the nature of that evil is.
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On December 07 2023 03:50 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 03:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 07 2023 03:12 Nebuchad wrote:On December 07 2023 02:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
Antisemitism is brought on primarily by xenophobia, religious bigotry, and nationalism. My views can easily be labelled as religious bigotry. I suspect Jesus Christ never existed. I do not think God can exist in human form. I do not get in people's faces about what I see as a rational Diest perspective. However, I know people who do. And, its a bad idea. They need to have better manners. You see, from my perspective, I view myself as only being probably correct. This lowers any zealotry or dogmatism. Unfortunately, in many religions each side believes they are absolutely 100% correct. This leads to avoidable conflict. So I'm sitting across the table from a devout Christian who, in his view, has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. For me, I'm just avoiding the topic. The last thing I'm going to say is "hey moron Jesus Christ never existed". When you spill your coffee on the table it is a bad idea to say "Jesus `fucking` Christ I spilled my coffee"... try something like "for crying in the sink I spilled my coffee". Now , is it some extra work to tip-toe around the feelings of Christians? Sure it is. However, Canada and the USA are heavily populated by Christians. Both countries let my family in when we were FUBAR-ed. So as a guest in these countries I respect the dignity of its citizens. None of my great grandfathers were compelled to fight as soldiers in WW2 in Europe. So , hey , let's just say ... I owe the Christians in Canada a favour or two. Unfortunately, not all jews comport themselves as I do. in a perfect abstract world... they should not have to do so. We do not live in a perfect abstract world. In a perfect abstract world i'd be living in Russia and my family would have never left. On December 07 2023 03:12 Nebuchad wrote:On December 07 2023 02:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
You shouldn't really dig into how the Jews brought it on themselves. They didn't. Bigotries are in essence reactionary, not rational, and therefore the source of the bigotry is what the bigot thinks, not a real world circumstance. i'm not big on censorship. i'm exploring a topic freely and openly. sometimes one digs up some odd perspectives. IMO, Jews who get into it with Christians about deeply held religious beliefs are contributing to anti-semitism. When someone says "hey moron Jesus Christ never existed" to a devout christian the correct conclusion is that this someone is insensitive, not that his religious group is deserving of bigotry. The antisemitic person might rationalize in their mind that they became hateful because of their experiences with one or several individuals, but we're allowed to wonder whether it's cope; and it is. You shouldn't do it because you're mistaken, not because I plan to censor you lol.
i disagree with your conclusion the person is merely insensitive.
I'd conclude they are a religious bigot. religious bigotry begets more religious bigotry thereby contributing to anti-semitism.
the best way to minimize anti-semitism is to act like Jerry Seinfeld.
Newly converted Jew: "it is our sense of humour that has sustained as a people for over 3000 years!"
Seinfeld: "5000! ! !"
On December 07 2023 03:50 Nebuchad wrote:
You shouldn't do it because you're mistaken, not because I plan to censor you lol.
good point!
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On December 07 2023 03:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 03:50 Nebuchad wrote:On December 07 2023 03:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 07 2023 03:12 Nebuchad wrote:On December 07 2023 02:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
Antisemitism is brought on primarily by xenophobia, religious bigotry, and nationalism. My views can easily be labelled as religious bigotry. I suspect Jesus Christ never existed. I do not think God can exist in human form. I do not get in people's faces about what I see as a rational Diest perspective. However, I know people who do. And, its a bad idea. They need to have better manners. You see, from my perspective, I view myself as only being probably correct. This lowers any zealotry or dogmatism. Unfortunately, in many religions each side believes they are absolutely 100% correct. This leads to avoidable conflict. So I'm sitting across the table from a devout Christian who, in his view, has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. For me, I'm just avoiding the topic. The last thing I'm going to say is "hey moron Jesus Christ never existed". When you spill your coffee on the table it is a bad idea to say "Jesus `fucking` Christ I spilled my coffee"... try something like "for crying in the sink I spilled my coffee". Now , is it some extra work to tip-toe around the feelings of Christians? Sure it is. However, Canada and the USA are heavily populated by Christians. Both countries let my family in when we were FUBAR-ed. So as a guest in these countries I respect the dignity of its citizens. None of my great grandfathers were compelled to fight as soldiers in WW2 in Europe. So , hey , let's just say ... I owe the Christians in Canada a favour or two. Unfortunately, not all jews comport themselves as I do. in a perfect abstract world... they should not have to do so. We do not live in a perfect abstract world. In a perfect abstract world i'd be living in Russia and my family would have never left. On December 07 2023 03:12 Nebuchad wrote:On December 07 2023 02:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
You shouldn't really dig into how the Jews brought it on themselves. They didn't. Bigotries are in essence reactionary, not rational, and therefore the source of the bigotry is what the bigot thinks, not a real world circumstance. i'm not big on censorship. i'm exploring a topic freely and openly. sometimes one digs up some odd perspectives. IMO, Jews who get into it with Christians about deeply held religious beliefs are contributing to anti-semitism. When someone says "hey moron Jesus Christ never existed" to a devout christian the correct conclusion is that this someone is insensitive, not that his religious group is deserving of bigotry. The antisemitic person might rationalize in their mind that they became hateful because of their experiences with one or several individuals, but we're allowed to wonder whether it's cope; and it is. You shouldn't do it because you're mistaken, not because I plan to censor you lol. i disagree with your conclusion the person is merely insensitive. I'd conclude they are a religious bigot. religious bigotry begets more religious bigotry thereby contributing to anti-semitism. the best way to minimize anti-semitism is to act like Jerry Seinfeld. Newly converted Jew: "it is our sense of humour that has sustained as a people for over 3000 years!" Seinfeld: "5000! ! !"Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 03:50 Nebuchad wrote:
You shouldn't do it because you're mistaken, not because I plan to censor you lol. good point!
Why does religious bigotry beget more religious bigotry?
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On December 07 2023 04:07 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 03:57 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 07 2023 03:50 Nebuchad wrote:On December 07 2023 03:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 07 2023 03:12 Nebuchad wrote:On December 07 2023 02:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
Antisemitism is brought on primarily by xenophobia, religious bigotry, and nationalism. My views can easily be labelled as religious bigotry. I suspect Jesus Christ never existed. I do not think God can exist in human form. I do not get in people's faces about what I see as a rational Diest perspective. However, I know people who do. And, its a bad idea. They need to have better manners. You see, from my perspective, I view myself as only being probably correct. This lowers any zealotry or dogmatism. Unfortunately, in many religions each side believes they are absolutely 100% correct. This leads to avoidable conflict. So I'm sitting across the table from a devout Christian who, in his view, has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. For me, I'm just avoiding the topic. The last thing I'm going to say is "hey moron Jesus Christ never existed". When you spill your coffee on the table it is a bad idea to say "Jesus `fucking` Christ I spilled my coffee"... try something like "for crying in the sink I spilled my coffee". Now , is it some extra work to tip-toe around the feelings of Christians? Sure it is. However, Canada and the USA are heavily populated by Christians. Both countries let my family in when we were FUBAR-ed. So as a guest in these countries I respect the dignity of its citizens. None of my great grandfathers were compelled to fight as soldiers in WW2 in Europe. So , hey , let's just say ... I owe the Christians in Canada a favour or two. Unfortunately, not all jews comport themselves as I do. in a perfect abstract world... they should not have to do so. We do not live in a perfect abstract world. In a perfect abstract world i'd be living in Russia and my family would have never left. On December 07 2023 03:12 Nebuchad wrote:On December 07 2023 02:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
some of the anti-semitism is brought on by Jews who are really vulgar and explicit about Jesus Christ not existing.
Christians believe God exists in human form as Jesus Christ. I prefer to avoid the subject completely and not get in the face of an otherwise law abiding hard working person. So I avoid statements like "Jesus Christ does not exist". Unfortunately, I can not say the same for a few of my family members. Some are brutal and nasty. When you do that ... you get blow back.
You shouldn't really dig into how the Jews brought it on themselves. They didn't. Bigotries are in essence reactionary, not rational, and therefore the source of the bigotry is what the bigot thinks, not a real world circumstance. i'm not big on censorship. i'm exploring a topic freely and openly. sometimes one digs up some odd perspectives. IMO, Jews who get into it with Christians about deeply held religious beliefs are contributing to anti-semitism. When someone says "hey moron Jesus Christ never existed" to a devout christian the correct conclusion is that this someone is insensitive, not that his religious group is deserving of bigotry. The antisemitic person might rationalize in their mind that they became hateful because of their experiences with one or several individuals, but we're allowed to wonder whether it's cope; and it is. You shouldn't do it because you're mistaken, not because I plan to censor you lol. i disagree with your conclusion the person is merely insensitive. I'd conclude they are a religious bigot. religious bigotry begets more religious bigotry thereby contributing to anti-semitism. the best way to minimize anti-semitism is to act like Jerry Seinfeld. Newly converted Jew: "it is our sense of humour that has sustained as a people for over 3000 years!" Seinfeld: "5000! ! !"On December 07 2023 03:50 Nebuchad wrote:
You shouldn't do it because you're mistaken, not because I plan to censor you lol. good point! Why does religious bigotry beget more religious bigotry?
i'm not sure. it is a tendency i've noticed over the years. For every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction? Even if the person does not outwardly react the recipient most certainly spends energy processing the event. The processing will never be a 100% accurate read.
It is why I'm a big fan of the 75 good manners of islam.
Another way to put it... "when in rome do as the romans do"
Also, to be 100% clear. I suspect that Jesus Christ did not exist. That is merely a probability. I could be wrong.
I suspect God can not exist in any material form. That is a probability. I could be wrong.
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On December 07 2023 04:18 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 03:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 07 2023 02:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 07 2023 02:24 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think theres an element of redundancy to this. Theres no point in stating over and over that SA sucks or that Hamas sucks, because there is no disagreement there. Israel has plenty defenders and sympathizers, and thus, there's a debate to be had. And hey, this is fair! Israeli treatment of palestinians is overall a much less black and white topic than saudi treatment of women/dissenting journalists. I also see more discussion on the topic of how to get rid of hamas (hard to know what to do, there) than on the issue of settlements (more universally condemned). There is plenty of disagreement on Hamas, people are just not being direct or logical with their assumptions. Here’s an example, and you have to imagine it is some one other than me asking this question because of… well you know. What should be done to Nazi sympathizers? What should be done to Hamas sympathizers? You would get two completely different answers. But if the question was is Hamas Nazi level bad you would have got a lot of yes’s. (Well that and a lot of Hamas and Nazis are not the exact same, but let’s leave out the strawmans for this example. People are unwilling to discuss what should be done about Hamas. And how do you do it without killing a bunch of civilians? It is a whole interesting and other topic that gets .01% of the attention. And it should because people also do not seem to be willing to confront that if you believe that Hamas is actually this horribly evil group , you wouldn’t want them left in charge of Palestinians. Like if Israel need the occupation, settlements outside of the short term end of the war, are the Palestinians any less oppressed? Especially the women? Hamas are very evil, but Gaza/West bank is oppressed while Nazi Germany wasn't oppressed. Palestinians are oppressed, Germany wasn't. Palestinians don't have any way out of the oppression, whereas Germans never needed a way out of anything to begin with. There's a clear difference in the level of evil coming out of Nazi Germany and the evil coming out of the Palestine regions. Hamas is a consequence of resistance being impossible against an oppressor, Nazi Germany was a consequence of a quest for total domination over all other nations and races. Furthermore, Nazi Germany was extremely powerful and extremely dangerous. Hamas doesn't even have a tiny fraction of that same power and they're nowhere near as dangerous. These are the reasons why you get very different answers to the question about what should be done about Hamas/Nazi sympathizers. It matters not only how evil the evil people are, but also what the nature of that evil is. You would know German history better than me but a lot of people I've read blame the rise of the Nazi's on the reparation payments along with the great depression. Massive amounts of propaganda. It was also a time when being against the Jew's was pretty normal. Now adays we look back differently, thank goodness. My point is that there are lots of justifications to why Nazi sympathizers were not really that bad either, especially at the time. And you are right that for now the Hamas's and groups like them do not have a ton of power, but there is a lot of wealth behind them and that can change it is a growing not shrinking movement.
You're right about the cause of the Nazis' rise to power. The Nazi party did indeed use economic discontent to fuel its propaganda. Jewish businesses became their main scapegoats (being labeled "parasites"). Additionally they used political violence and funding from rich donors to grow in size and keep opposition small. Some of these donors were, ironically, Jews. A tragic mistake as they later learned when Hitler's book "Mein Kampf" was published and revealed his true intentions.
It's important to mention that Germany was already rife with fascist ideologues before Hitler showed up. The ideology was spreading to many countries. This made it much easier for Hitler to build his following, it was not a coincidence that his book became a bestseller.
Basically Nazi Germany was based on a lie. There was no oppressor of German people, there were no parasites. But it was quite easy to sell the lie.
We don't need to look far to understand how easily people believe such a lie, even today in the "information age". A lie was the foundation of Trump's campaign. A lie got him into office. He lied more times than any other US president in history. And all that even though there was no cause for concern in the US. No economic discontent, nothing.
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United States42237 Posts
On December 07 2023 04:18 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 03:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 07 2023 02:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 07 2023 02:24 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think theres an element of redundancy to this. Theres no point in stating over and over that SA sucks or that Hamas sucks, because there is no disagreement there. Israel has plenty defenders and sympathizers, and thus, there's a debate to be had. And hey, this is fair! Israeli treatment of palestinians is overall a much less black and white topic than saudi treatment of women/dissenting journalists. I also see more discussion on the topic of how to get rid of hamas (hard to know what to do, there) than on the issue of settlements (more universally condemned). There is plenty of disagreement on Hamas, people are just not being direct or logical with their assumptions. Here’s an example, and you have to imagine it is some one other than me asking this question because of… well you know. What should be done to Nazi sympathizers? What should be done to Hamas sympathizers? You would get two completely different answers. But if the question was is Hamas Nazi level bad you would have got a lot of yes’s. (Well that and a lot of Hamas and Nazis are not the exact same, but let’s leave out the strawmans for this example. People are unwilling to discuss what should be done about Hamas. And how do you do it without killing a bunch of civilians? It is a whole interesting and other topic that gets .01% of the attention. And it should because people also do not seem to be willing to confront that if you believe that Hamas is actually this horribly evil group , you wouldn’t want them left in charge of Palestinians. Like if Israel need the occupation, settlements outside of the short term end of the war, are the Palestinians any less oppressed? Especially the women? Hamas are very evil, but Gaza/West bank is oppressed while Nazi Germany wasn't oppressed. Palestinians are oppressed, Germany wasn't. Palestinians don't have any way out of the oppression, whereas Germans never needed a way out of anything to begin with. There's a clear difference in the level of evil coming out of Nazi Germany and the evil coming out of the Palestine regions. Hamas is a consequence of resistance being impossible against an oppressor, Nazi Germany was a consequence of a quest for total domination over all other nations and races. Furthermore, Nazi Germany was extremely powerful and extremely dangerous. Hamas doesn't even have a tiny fraction of that same power and they're nowhere near as dangerous. These are the reasons why you get very different answers to the question about what should be done about Hamas/Nazi sympathizers. It matters not only how evil the evil people are, but also what the nature of that evil is. You would know German history better than me but a lot of people I've read blame the rise of the Nazi's on the reparation payments along with the great depression. Massive amounts of propaganda. It was also a time when being against the Jew's was pretty normal. Now adays we look back differently, thank goodness. My point is that there are lots of justifications to why Nazi sympathizers were not really that bad either, especially at the time. And you are right that for now the Hamas's and groups like them do not have a ton of power, but there is a lot of wealth behind them and that can change it is a growing not shrinking movement.
There was a net inflow of capital to Germany during the reparations period. American loans and investment far exceeded reparations payments. Especially given German industry was largely intact whereas French and Belgian industry got leveled.
Reparations as a cause for Nazism is basically a myth, beyond the degree to which it gave them something to lie about.
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On December 07 2023 03:57 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 02:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 07 2023 02:24 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think theres an element of redundancy to this. Theres no point in stating over and over that SA sucks or that Hamas sucks, because there is no disagreement there. Israel has plenty defenders and sympathizers, and thus, there's a debate to be had. And hey, this is fair! Israeli treatment of palestinians is overall a much less black and white topic than saudi treatment of women/dissenting journalists. I also see more discussion on the topic of how to get rid of hamas (hard to know what to do, there) than on the issue of settlements (more universally condemned). There is plenty of disagreement on Hamas, people are just not being direct or logical with their assumptions. Here’s an example, and you have to imagine it is some one other than me asking this question because of… well you know. What should be done to Nazi sympathizers? What should be done to Hamas sympathizers? You would get two completely different answers. But if the question was is Hamas Nazi level bad you would have got a lot of yes’s. (Well that and a lot of Hamas and Nazis are not the exact same, but let’s leave out the strawmans for this example. People are unwilling to discuss what should be done about Hamas. And how do you do it without killing a bunch of civilians? It is a whole interesting and other topic that gets .01% of the attention. And it should because people also do not seem to be willing to confront that if you believe that Hamas is actually this horribly evil group , you wouldn’t want them left in charge of Palestinians. Like if Israel need the occupation, settlements outside of the short term end of the war, are the Palestinians any less oppressed? Especially the women? Hamas are very evil, but Gaza/West bank is oppressed while Nazi Germany wasn't oppressed. Palestinians are oppressed, Germany wasn't. Palestinians don't have any way out of the oppression, whereas Germans never needed a way out of anything to begin with. There's a clear difference in the level of evil coming out of Nazi Germany and the evil coming out of the Palestine regions. Hamas is a consequence of resistance being impossible against an oppressor, Nazi Germany was a consequence of a quest for total domination over all other nations and races. Furthermore, Nazi Germany was extremely powerful and extremely dangerous. Hamas doesn't even have a tiny fraction of that same power and they're nowhere near as dangerous. These are the reasons why you get very different answers to the question about what should be done about Hamas/Nazi sympathizers. It matters not only how evil the evil people are, but also what the nature of that evil is.
It's human nature for victims to usually not care if their perpetrator was oppressed or not. There are exceptions of course when victims find it in themselves to forgive their attacker because of their history but it's not very common.
- Palestinians being oppressed and
- Israel being the victim of a horrible attack by perpetrators looking for every opportunity to do it again
are true at the same time.
It's easy to sit on the sidelines and compare the number of people killed and conclude that it's not justified (I'm on the sidelines to and I agree with that logical conclusion) to do what Israel is currently doing in Gaza.
But at the same point of time I can emphasise with the fact that the attacks were so grotesquely evil that they basically force a reaction.
Hamas did this. Israel have the power to destroy them. They decided to destroy them (or get their hostages back and the attackers as an alternative that Hamas of course rejected). Protecting civilians is secondary to that objective.
If someones kid is raped and they killed the paedophile I can logically conclude that it's wrong to kill but I can also understand why they did it.
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On December 07 2023 05:20 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 05:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 07 2023 04:18 JimmiC wrote:On December 07 2023 03:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 07 2023 02:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 07 2023 02:24 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think theres an element of redundancy to this. Theres no point in stating over and over that SA sucks or that Hamas sucks, because there is no disagreement there. Israel has plenty defenders and sympathizers, and thus, there's a debate to be had. And hey, this is fair! Israeli treatment of palestinians is overall a much less black and white topic than saudi treatment of women/dissenting journalists. I also see more discussion on the topic of how to get rid of hamas (hard to know what to do, there) than on the issue of settlements (more universally condemned). There is plenty of disagreement on Hamas, people are just not being direct or logical with their assumptions. Here’s an example, and you have to imagine it is some one other than me asking this question because of… well you know. What should be done to Nazi sympathizers? What should be done to Hamas sympathizers? You would get two completely different answers. But if the question was is Hamas Nazi level bad you would have got a lot of yes’s. (Well that and a lot of Hamas and Nazis are not the exact same, but let’s leave out the strawmans for this example. People are unwilling to discuss what should be done about Hamas. And how do you do it without killing a bunch of civilians? It is a whole interesting and other topic that gets .01% of the attention. And it should because people also do not seem to be willing to confront that if you believe that Hamas is actually this horribly evil group , you wouldn’t want them left in charge of Palestinians. Like if Israel need the occupation, settlements outside of the short term end of the war, are the Palestinians any less oppressed? Especially the women? Hamas are very evil, but Gaza/West bank is oppressed while Nazi Germany wasn't oppressed. Palestinians are oppressed, Germany wasn't. Palestinians don't have any way out of the oppression, whereas Germans never needed a way out of anything to begin with. There's a clear difference in the level of evil coming out of Nazi Germany and the evil coming out of the Palestine regions. Hamas is a consequence of resistance being impossible against an oppressor, Nazi Germany was a consequence of a quest for total domination over all other nations and races. Furthermore, Nazi Germany was extremely powerful and extremely dangerous. Hamas doesn't even have a tiny fraction of that same power and they're nowhere near as dangerous. These are the reasons why you get very different answers to the question about what should be done about Hamas/Nazi sympathizers. It matters not only how evil the evil people are, but also what the nature of that evil is. You would know German history better than me but a lot of people I've read blame the rise of the Nazi's on the reparation payments along with the great depression. Massive amounts of propaganda. It was also a time when being against the Jew's was pretty normal. Now adays we look back differently, thank goodness. My point is that there are lots of justifications to why Nazi sympathizers were not really that bad either, especially at the time. And you are right that for now the Hamas's and groups like them do not have a ton of power, but there is a lot of wealth behind them and that can change it is a growing not shrinking movement. You're right about the cause of the Nazis' rise to power. The Nazi party did indeed use economic discontent to fuel its propaganda. Jewish businesses became their main scapegoats (being labeled "parasites"). Additionally they used political violence and funding from rich donors to grow in size and keep opposition small. Some of these donors were, ironically, Jews. A tragic mistake as they later learned when Hitler's book "Mein Kampf" was published and revealed his true intentions. It's important to mention that Germany was already rife with fascist ideologues before Hitler showed up. The ideology was spreading to many countries. This made it much easier for Hitler to build his following, it was not a coincidence that his book became a bestseller. Basically Nazi Germany was based on a lie. There was no oppressor of German people, there were no parasites. But it was quite easy to sell the lie. We don't need to look far to understand how easily people believe such a lie, even today in the "information age". A lie was the foundation of Trump's campaign. A lie got him into office. He lied more times than any other US president in history. And all that even though there was no cause for concern in the US. No economic discontent, nothing. Let me ask you this, if you had read that Arab Israelis were forced to join the IDF and it was optional for the Jewish Israelis would you think that the Jewish Israelis were being discriminated against?
If the benefit system was still the same as it is now, then yes I would think that. I believe that the opportunities and benefits are very heavily in favor of those who serve. I think it would lead to a greater representation of Arab Israelis in positions of power and wealth, and in more overall legal leverage.
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On December 07 2023 05:32 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2023 03:57 Magic Powers wrote:On December 07 2023 02:39 JimmiC wrote:On December 07 2023 02:24 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think theres an element of redundancy to this. Theres no point in stating over and over that SA sucks or that Hamas sucks, because there is no disagreement there. Israel has plenty defenders and sympathizers, and thus, there's a debate to be had. And hey, this is fair! Israeli treatment of palestinians is overall a much less black and white topic than saudi treatment of women/dissenting journalists. I also see more discussion on the topic of how to get rid of hamas (hard to know what to do, there) than on the issue of settlements (more universally condemned). There is plenty of disagreement on Hamas, people are just not being direct or logical with their assumptions. Here’s an example, and you have to imagine it is some one other than me asking this question because of… well you know. What should be done to Nazi sympathizers? What should be done to Hamas sympathizers? You would get two completely different answers. But if the question was is Hamas Nazi level bad you would have got a lot of yes’s. (Well that and a lot of Hamas and Nazis are not the exact same, but let’s leave out the strawmans for this example. People are unwilling to discuss what should be done about Hamas. And how do you do it without killing a bunch of civilians? It is a whole interesting and other topic that gets .01% of the attention. And it should because people also do not seem to be willing to confront that if you believe that Hamas is actually this horribly evil group , you wouldn’t want them left in charge of Palestinians. Like if Israel need the occupation, settlements outside of the short term end of the war, are the Palestinians any less oppressed? Especially the women? Hamas are very evil, but Gaza/West bank is oppressed while Nazi Germany wasn't oppressed. Palestinians are oppressed, Germany wasn't. Palestinians don't have any way out of the oppression, whereas Germans never needed a way out of anything to begin with. There's a clear difference in the level of evil coming out of Nazi Germany and the evil coming out of the Palestine regions. Hamas is a consequence of resistance being impossible against an oppressor, Nazi Germany was a consequence of a quest for total domination over all other nations and races. Furthermore, Nazi Germany was extremely powerful and extremely dangerous. Hamas doesn't even have a tiny fraction of that same power and they're nowhere near as dangerous. These are the reasons why you get very different answers to the question about what should be done about Hamas/Nazi sympathizers. It matters not only how evil the evil people are, but also what the nature of that evil is. It's human nature for victims to usually not care if their perpetrator was oppressed or not. There are exceptions of course when victims find it in themselves to forgive their attacker because of their history but it's not very common. - Palestinians being oppressed and - Israel being the victim of a horrible attack by perpetrators looking for every opportunity to do it again are true at the same time. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and compare the number of people killed and conclude that it's not justified (I'm on the sidelines to and I agree with that logical conclusion) to do what Israel is currently doing in Gaza. But at the same point of time I can emphasise with the fact that the attacks were so grotesquely evil that they basically force a reaction. Hamas did this. Israel have the power to destroy them. They decided to destroy them (or get their hostages back and the attackers as an alternative that Hamas of course rejected). Protecting civilians is secondary to that objective. If someones kid is raped and they killed the paedophile I can logically conclude that it's wrong to kill but I can also understand why they did it.
I would've largely agreed with your comment, up until the last sentence which I think is not a valid logical abstraction of the case. We're not looking at a case of someone taking revenge on a sexual predator. We're looking at someone blowing up the neighborhood of a sexual predator while knowing this will kill his family and other families as well, and justifying it with "eliminating the threat". Meanwhile there are actually several other predators which forces us to blow up even more neighborhoods and repeat the process of killing a bunch of families. And in the process of blowing up all these neighborhoods we're also leveling half the district and displacing hundreds of other families. And the rest of the district has to cower in fear of what's going to happen next.
That's not a "reaction". That's an overreaction.
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EPT
