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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On December 06 2023 09:08 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2023 09:02 Nebuchad wrote:On December 06 2023 08:59 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 08:50 Nebuchad wrote:On December 06 2023 08:29 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 08:00 Nebuchad wrote:
Do you think it's bad that Lithuania isn't very ethnically diverse? No, nor would I describe them as an Ethnostate, would you? No, I wouldn't either. So here's the issue that I see here. 1) You've reacted against the use of the word "ethnostate", you think it's a criticism of a country to be an ethnostate. I would personally agree, I think it's pretty bad. Generally a childish idea, I don't think that humans function in this way. 2) You don't have a negative opinion of Lithuania not being ethnically diverse. Again, I agree, I think I have zero moral positions on the ethnic diversity of Lithuania, or any country really. In truth, I think it's fair to say that this is the first time in my life that I even entertain a single thought regarding the ethnic diversity of Lithuania. Provided that you agree, we have established that ethnostates are morally questionable, and that having less ethnic diversity is not morally questionable. So when I combine those two beliefs together, my conclusion is that it's probably not the ethnic diversity of a country that establishes whether it's an overreach to call a state an ethnostate or not. Otherwise we ought to have very different feelings about Lithuania. So probably I'd be looking at something else than diversity stats if I wanted to make up my mind on this. Maybe this, or this, or this. Wow like 95% of your words were typed to be an asshole and 5% on the discussion, that is actually pretty good for you on the last few pages. Ethnostate definition: a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group. "they actively promoted the concept of a white ethnostate" None of your links discuss restrictions by race or ethnic group. And their makeup shows that others are allowed and not being chased out. None of my links discuss restrictions by race or ethnic group? Feel free to point out the restrictions of citizenship, I did not see them. You may not know this but you are not allowed to just post links or videos without some explanation, preferably with the quotes or time stamps. You are not meant to just post pages of info and expect the other people to dig through and find it for you. Those of us forced to follow the rules that are not in the special class have to learn them. So far in the last few pages you have broken a whole host of them!
I don't think it's very fair to say that you have to dig through a whole lot to find the relevance of the links I posted. The concept of establishing a state specifically for Jewish people seems directly connected, so that deals with the first two links, and as for the third one it's a symbolic reinforcement of the project voted in by a far right government... It doesn't strike me as particularly obscure.
I also don't believe that you thought it was, my guess is that you're lying about thinking that in order to launch your argument that I'm in a special class of posters that is allowed to post worse than you. I must say that I can't sympathize with you on this argument because I'm of the opinion that you're allowed a ton more leniency on your bad posting than a lot of other people are, or have been.
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On December 06 2023 09:03 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2023 08:56 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 07:53 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 07:35 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 06:28 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On December 06 2023 03:30 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 01:15 Magic Powers wrote:
Nebuchad's claim can't be dismissed out of hand. An ethnostate serves the interests of one ethnicity above all. This can be done by restricting citizenship to only one ethnicity, but that's not a fundamental requirement.
As has been shown, the interests of Jews are strongly favored in the State of Israel above those of all other ethnic groups. Yes it can because it is wrong and hateful. Seriously go look up the demographics it does not fit either ethnicity or religiously. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_IsraelOh look Switzerland is also an ethnostate, https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/switzerland/summaries/
You know what, I'm going to agree with you, we're not going to use ethnostate. "State with the project and the desire to be an ethnostate" is a more accurate description, as it acknowledges the fact that in reality the project is a failure.
It is extremely sad that you have an ability to be very thoughtful and post interesting things but more often than not you go with the really bitchy lame shit post. Sometimes people disagree with you because they think you're wrong, it's not always because they want to shitpost Its very true, but then they do it without shit posting. You are a great example, sometimes you take the time to be thoughtful with your responses and other times you post the shit that if I posted we both know I would be banned. I agree with Nebuchad and the counter-arguments are not convincing to me. What he said didn't seem like a shitpost. So the argument is it is a ethnostate cause I say so? You agreeing does not make it a great argument. But as usual I'll put in the work. So here are SOME of the countries less Ethnically diverse than Israel, ready to call all these places Ethnostates? Lithuania, Czech Republic, Belarus, Turkey, Romania, Taiwan, Argentina, Slovakia, Uruguay, Russia, Philippines, Vietnam, Costa Rica, Slovenia, Cambodia, Albania, El Salvador, Honduras, Chile, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Paraguay, Germany, Greece, China, Hungary, Finaland, Lebanon, the UK, Ireland, Poland, Italy, Austria, Netherlands, France, Australia, Denmark, Iceland, Hong Kong, Sweden, Norway, Portugal, Bangladesh, SK, NK, Yemen, Palestine, But I really meant Religious, Oh well also wrong. Here is a non exhaustive list of the countries less Religiously diverse than Israel. Panama, UAE, India, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Monaco, Italy, Slovenia, Afghanistan, Finalnd, Costa Rica, Romania, Honduras, Sweden, Indonesia, Denmark, Argentina, Belguim, Paraguay, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Norway, Niger, Peru, Egypt, Iceland, Mali, Mexico, Poland, Iceland, Greece, Colombia, Portugal, Nepal, Ecuador, Venezuela, Suadia Arabia, Malta, Iran, Thailand, Cambodia, Qatar, Luxembourg, Mongolia, Jordan, Libya, Palestine, Algeria, Turkey, Morocoo, Somalia, Yemen, It is not even close, unless all those places are too (and I left out a bunch) and then what is the point of the term? Oh and the even more disgusting one is the antisemitic conspiracy theory that secretly want to get rid of all the people without Jewish ancestry. One google search could have told you how dumb his statement was, but instead because it fits the Israel is evil narrative a bunch of people believe it. I wonder what hateful edgelord word will be used next to describe Israel, he is sure powering through all of them in a hurry! https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-diverse-countries Ethnic makeup is not the only factor in whether a country is an ethnostate or not. The treatment of the different ethnicities is an essential point. Arab Israelis aren't being treated as equals in Israel, and on top of that they're the clear minority. Furthermore they live mostly separated, with few exceptions. Even in areas where they're more mixed with Jewish Israelis, they also tend to live in separate neighborhoods. Here in Austria I live in one of the most ethnically diverse districts, so I know very well what an ethnically mixed area looks like. That's not how things generally look in Israel. Firstly source what your saying. Secondly that is not what ethnostate means, it means this. a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.
"they actively promoted the concept of a white ethnostate"And I may as well post this, since it is far more related than Nebuchad's links. https://theconversation.com/israels-mosaic-of-jewish-ethnic-groups-is-key-to-understanding-the-country-217893
There isn't "the" one definition of ethnostate, there are a number of different ones. For example:
"a country populated by, or dominated by the interests of, a single racial or ethnic group"
The key word is "or". An ethnostate could be a state where a single ethnic group has citizenship and others do not. That is one possibility. But an ethnostate could instead be a state where the interests of a single ethnic group overshadow those of other ethnic groups.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ethnostate
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On December 06 2023 09:58 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2023 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 09:03 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 08:56 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 07:53 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 07:35 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 06:28 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:On December 06 2023 03:30 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 01:15 Magic Powers wrote:
Nebuchad's claim can't be dismissed out of hand. An ethnostate serves the interests of one ethnicity above all. This can be done by restricting citizenship to only one ethnicity, but that's not a fundamental requirement.
As has been shown, the interests of Jews are strongly favored in the State of Israel above those of all other ethnic groups. Yes it can because it is wrong and hateful. Seriously go look up the demographics it does not fit either ethnicity or religiously. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_IsraelOh look Switzerland is also an ethnostate, https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/switzerland/summaries/
You know what, I'm going to agree with you, we're not going to use ethnostate. "State with the project and the desire to be an ethnostate" is a more accurate description, as it acknowledges the fact that in reality the project is a failure.
It is extremely sad that you have an ability to be very thoughtful and post interesting things but more often than not you go with the really bitchy lame shit post. Sometimes people disagree with you because they think you're wrong, it's not always because they want to shitpost Its very true, but then they do it without shit posting. You are a great example, sometimes you take the time to be thoughtful with your responses and other times you post the shit that if I posted we both know I would be banned. I agree with Nebuchad and the counter-arguments are not convincing to me. What he said didn't seem like a shitpost. So the argument is it is a ethnostate cause I say so? You agreeing does not make it a great argument. But as usual I'll put in the work. So here are SOME of the countries less Ethnically diverse than Israel, ready to call all these places Ethnostates? Lithuania, Czech Republic, Belarus, Turkey, Romania, Taiwan, Argentina, Slovakia, Uruguay, Russia, Philippines, Vietnam, Costa Rica, Slovenia, Cambodia, Albania, El Salvador, Honduras, Chile, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Paraguay, Germany, Greece, China, Hungary, Finaland, Lebanon, the UK, Ireland, Poland, Italy, Austria, Netherlands, France, Australia, Denmark, Iceland, Hong Kong, Sweden, Norway, Portugal, Bangladesh, SK, NK, Yemen, Palestine, But I really meant Religious, Oh well also wrong. Here is a non exhaustive list of the countries less Religiously diverse than Israel. Panama, UAE, India, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Monaco, Italy, Slovenia, Afghanistan, Finalnd, Costa Rica, Romania, Honduras, Sweden, Indonesia, Denmark, Argentina, Belguim, Paraguay, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Norway, Niger, Peru, Egypt, Iceland, Mali, Mexico, Poland, Iceland, Greece, Colombia, Portugal, Nepal, Ecuador, Venezuela, Suadia Arabia, Malta, Iran, Thailand, Cambodia, Qatar, Luxembourg, Mongolia, Jordan, Libya, Palestine, Algeria, Turkey, Morocoo, Somalia, Yemen, It is not even close, unless all those places are too (and I left out a bunch) and then what is the point of the term? Oh and the even more disgusting one is the antisemitic conspiracy theory that secretly want to get rid of all the people without Jewish ancestry. One google search could have told you how dumb his statement was, but instead because it fits the Israel is evil narrative a bunch of people believe it. I wonder what hateful edgelord word will be used next to describe Israel, he is sure powering through all of them in a hurry! https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-diverse-countries Ethnic makeup is not the only factor in whether a country is an ethnostate or not. The treatment of the different ethnicities is an essential point. Arab Israelis aren't being treated as equals in Israel, and on top of that they're the clear minority. Furthermore they live mostly separated, with few exceptions. Even in areas where they're more mixed with Jewish Israelis, they also tend to live in separate neighborhoods. Here in Austria I live in one of the most ethnically diverse districts, so I know very well what an ethnically mixed area looks like. That's not how things generally look in Israel. Firstly source what your saying. Secondly that is not what ethnostate means, it means this. a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.
"they actively promoted the concept of a white ethnostate"And I may as well post this, since it is far more related than Nebuchad's links. https://theconversation.com/israels-mosaic-of-jewish-ethnic-groups-is-key-to-understanding-the-country-217893 There isn't "the" one definition of ethnostate, there are a number of different ones. For example: "a country populated by, or dominated by the interests of, a single racial or ethnic group" The key word is "or". An ethnostate could be a state where a single ethnic group has citizenship and others do not. That is one possibility. But an ethnostate could instead be a state where the interests of a single ethnic group overshadow those of other ethnic groups. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ethnostate Then you are back to having a definition that includes a whole crap ton of countries that basically no one thinks of ethnostates. China would come to mind, the Han are very advantaged. But you could probably name well over 50 countries.
Maybe it's time for you to realize how many ethnostates in fact do exist. We're not living in a utopia.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People
A. The land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.
B. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to self-determination.
C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
If that's not an ethnostate, I honestly don't know what is.
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On December 06 2023 10:28 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2023 10:18 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 09:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 09:03 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 08:56 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 07:53 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 07:35 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 06:28 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 05:57 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Sometimes people disagree with you because they think you're wrong, it's not always because they want to shitpost Its very true, but then they do it without shit posting. You are a great example, sometimes you take the time to be thoughtful with your responses and other times you post the shit that if I posted we both know I would be banned. I agree with Nebuchad and the counter-arguments are not convincing to me. What he said didn't seem like a shitpost. So the argument is it is a ethnostate cause I say so? You agreeing does not make it a great argument. But as usual I'll put in the work. So here are SOME of the countries less Ethnically diverse than Israel, ready to call all these places Ethnostates? Lithuania, Czech Republic, Belarus, Turkey, Romania, Taiwan, Argentina, Slovakia, Uruguay, Russia, Philippines, Vietnam, Costa Rica, Slovenia, Cambodia, Albania, El Salvador, Honduras, Chile, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Paraguay, Germany, Greece, China, Hungary, Finaland, Lebanon, the UK, Ireland, Poland, Italy, Austria, Netherlands, France, Australia, Denmark, Iceland, Hong Kong, Sweden, Norway, Portugal, Bangladesh, SK, NK, Yemen, Palestine, But I really meant Religious, Oh well also wrong. Here is a non exhaustive list of the countries less Religiously diverse than Israel. Panama, UAE, India, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Monaco, Italy, Slovenia, Afghanistan, Finalnd, Costa Rica, Romania, Honduras, Sweden, Indonesia, Denmark, Argentina, Belguim, Paraguay, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Norway, Niger, Peru, Egypt, Iceland, Mali, Mexico, Poland, Iceland, Greece, Colombia, Portugal, Nepal, Ecuador, Venezuela, Suadia Arabia, Malta, Iran, Thailand, Cambodia, Qatar, Luxembourg, Mongolia, Jordan, Libya, Palestine, Algeria, Turkey, Morocoo, Somalia, Yemen, It is not even close, unless all those places are too (and I left out a bunch) and then what is the point of the term? Oh and the even more disgusting one is the antisemitic conspiracy theory that secretly want to get rid of all the people without Jewish ancestry. One google search could have told you how dumb his statement was, but instead because it fits the Israel is evil narrative a bunch of people believe it. I wonder what hateful edgelord word will be used next to describe Israel, he is sure powering through all of them in a hurry! https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-diverse-countries Ethnic makeup is not the only factor in whether a country is an ethnostate or not. The treatment of the different ethnicities is an essential point. Arab Israelis aren't being treated as equals in Israel, and on top of that they're the clear minority. Furthermore they live mostly separated, with few exceptions. Even in areas where they're more mixed with Jewish Israelis, they also tend to live in separate neighborhoods. Here in Austria I live in one of the most ethnically diverse districts, so I know very well what an ethnically mixed area looks like. That's not how things generally look in Israel. Firstly source what your saying. Secondly that is not what ethnostate means, it means this. a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.
"they actively promoted the concept of a white ethnostate"And I may as well post this, since it is far more related than Nebuchad's links. https://theconversation.com/israels-mosaic-of-jewish-ethnic-groups-is-key-to-understanding-the-country-217893 There isn't "the" one definition of ethnostate, there are a number of different ones. For example: "a country populated by, or dominated by the interests of, a single racial or ethnic group" The key word is "or". An ethnostate could be a state where a single ethnic group has citizenship and others do not. That is one possibility. But an ethnostate could instead be a state where the interests of a single ethnic group overshadow those of other ethnic groups. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ethnostate Then you are back to having a definition that includes a whole crap ton of countries that basically no one thinks of ethnostates. China would come to mind, the Han are very advantaged. But you could probably name well over 50 countries. Maybe it's time for you to realize how many ethnostates in fact do exist. We're not living in a utopia. Wait we’re not? Great point. I await you and men using the term to define all the countries it applies to that are not Israel. I won’t hold my breath though.
Most countries in the world are ethnostates to varying degrees. It's not so much a question of "if", but how severe the discrimination is that ethnic minorities have to deal with.
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On December 06 2023 10:45 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2023 10:34 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 10:28 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 10:18 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 09:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 09:03 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 08:56 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 07:53 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 07:35 Magic Powers wrote:
[quote]
I agree with Nebuchad and the counter-arguments are not convincing to me. What he said didn't seem like a shitpost. So the argument is it is a ethnostate cause I say so? You agreeing does not make it a great argument. But as usual I'll put in the work. So here are SOME of the countries less Ethnically diverse than Israel, ready to call all these places Ethnostates? Lithuania, Czech Republic, Belarus, Turkey, Romania, Taiwan, Argentina, Slovakia, Uruguay, Russia, Philippines, Vietnam, Costa Rica, Slovenia, Cambodia, Albania, El Salvador, Honduras, Chile, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Paraguay, Germany, Greece, China, Hungary, Finaland, Lebanon, the UK, Ireland, Poland, Italy, Austria, Netherlands, France, Australia, Denmark, Iceland, Hong Kong, Sweden, Norway, Portugal, Bangladesh, SK, NK, Yemen, Palestine, But I really meant Religious, Oh well also wrong. Here is a non exhaustive list of the countries less Religiously diverse than Israel. Panama, UAE, India, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Monaco, Italy, Slovenia, Afghanistan, Finalnd, Costa Rica, Romania, Honduras, Sweden, Indonesia, Denmark, Argentina, Belguim, Paraguay, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Norway, Niger, Peru, Egypt, Iceland, Mali, Mexico, Poland, Iceland, Greece, Colombia, Portugal, Nepal, Ecuador, Venezuela, Suadia Arabia, Malta, Iran, Thailand, Cambodia, Qatar, Luxembourg, Mongolia, Jordan, Libya, Palestine, Algeria, Turkey, Morocoo, Somalia, Yemen, It is not even close, unless all those places are too (and I left out a bunch) and then what is the point of the term? Oh and the even more disgusting one is the antisemitic conspiracy theory that secretly want to get rid of all the people without Jewish ancestry. One google search could have told you how dumb his statement was, but instead because it fits the Israel is evil narrative a bunch of people believe it. I wonder what hateful edgelord word will be used next to describe Israel, he is sure powering through all of them in a hurry! https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-diverse-countries Ethnic makeup is not the only factor in whether a country is an ethnostate or not. The treatment of the different ethnicities is an essential point. Arab Israelis aren't being treated as equals in Israel, and on top of that they're the clear minority. Furthermore they live mostly separated, with few exceptions. Even in areas where they're more mixed with Jewish Israelis, they also tend to live in separate neighborhoods. Here in Austria I live in one of the most ethnically diverse districts, so I know very well what an ethnically mixed area looks like. That's not how things generally look in Israel. Firstly source what your saying. Secondly that is not what ethnostate means, it means this. a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.
"they actively promoted the concept of a white ethnostate"And I may as well post this, since it is far more related than Nebuchad's links. https://theconversation.com/israels-mosaic-of-jewish-ethnic-groups-is-key-to-understanding-the-country-217893 There isn't "the" one definition of ethnostate, there are a number of different ones. For example: "a country populated by, or dominated by the interests of, a single racial or ethnic group" The key word is "or". An ethnostate could be a state where a single ethnic group has citizenship and others do not. That is one possibility. But an ethnostate could instead be a state where the interests of a single ethnic group overshadow those of other ethnic groups. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ethnostate Then you are back to having a definition that includes a whole crap ton of countries that basically no one thinks of ethnostates. China would come to mind, the Han are very advantaged. But you could probably name well over 50 countries. Maybe it's time for you to realize how many ethnostates in fact do exist. We're not living in a utopia. Wait we’re not? Great point. I await you and men using the term to define all the countries it applies to that are not Israel. I won’t hold my breath though. Most countries in the world are ethnostates to varying degrees. It's not so much a question of "if", but how severe the discrimination is that ethnic minorities have to deal with. If you make a definition loose enough so all countries fit it loses its meaning. As Neb pointed out ethnostate brings up negative feelings because when people talk about it they generally are referring to the white supremacists who want a white ethnostate. Its main point is to restrict citizenship to whites. Israel clearly does not restrict citizenship to non whites since 30 percent are not Jewish and none of you can find restrictions. When Neb uses the term he wants that image to come to mind and not the definition you are using. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_ethnostateA White ethnostate is a proposed type of state in which residence or citizenship would be limited to Whites, and non-whites and any other groups not seen as white would be excluded from citizenship. Within the Anglosphere, the natives of their respective countries would also be excluded from citizenship, such as the Indigenous people of the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
Just a few comments ago you had a fairly easy time naming dozens of ethnostate candidates based exclusively on the definition that the citizens are predominantly of one ethnicity. 47 countries to be exact. Now you're arguing any definition of ethnostate would be too loose to be applied to most countries in the world?
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On December 06 2023 10:52 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2023 10:45 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 10:34 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 10:28 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 10:18 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 09:58 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 09:53 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 09:03 JimmiC wrote:On December 06 2023 08:56 Magic Powers wrote:On December 06 2023 07:53 JimmiC wrote:[quote] So the argument is it is a ethnostate cause I say so? You agreeing does not make it a great argument. But as usual I'll put in the work. So here are SOME of the countries less Ethnically diverse than Israel, ready to call all these places Ethnostates? Lithuania, Czech Republic, Belarus, Turkey, Romania, Taiwan, Argentina, Slovakia, Uruguay, Russia, Philippines, Vietnam, Costa Rica, Slovenia, Cambodia, Albania, El Salvador, Honduras, Chile, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Paraguay, Germany, Greece, China, Hungary, Finaland, Lebanon, the UK, Ireland, Poland, Italy, Austria, Netherlands, France, Australia, Denmark, Iceland, Hong Kong, Sweden, Norway, Portugal, Bangladesh, SK, NK, Yemen, Palestine, But I really meant Religious, Oh well also wrong. Here is a non exhaustive list of the countries less Religiously diverse than Israel. Panama, UAE, India, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Monaco, Italy, Slovenia, Afghanistan, Finalnd, Costa Rica, Romania, Honduras, Sweden, Indonesia, Denmark, Argentina, Belguim, Paraguay, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Norway, Niger, Peru, Egypt, Iceland, Mali, Mexico, Poland, Iceland, Greece, Colombia, Portugal, Nepal, Ecuador, Venezuela, Suadia Arabia, Malta, Iran, Thailand, Cambodia, Qatar, Luxembourg, Mongolia, Jordan, Libya, Palestine, Algeria, Turkey, Morocoo, Somalia, Yemen, It is not even close, unless all those places are too (and I left out a bunch) and then what is the point of the term? Oh and the even more disgusting one is the antisemitic conspiracy theory that secretly want to get rid of all the people without Jewish ancestry. One google search could have told you how dumb his statement was, but instead because it fits the Israel is evil narrative a bunch of people believe it. I wonder what hateful edgelord word will be used next to describe Israel, he is sure powering through all of them in a hurry! https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-diverse-countries Ethnic makeup is not the only factor in whether a country is an ethnostate or not. The treatment of the different ethnicities is an essential point. Arab Israelis aren't being treated as equals in Israel, and on top of that they're the clear minority. Furthermore they live mostly separated, with few exceptions. Even in areas where they're more mixed with Jewish Israelis, they also tend to live in separate neighborhoods. Here in Austria I live in one of the most ethnically diverse districts, so I know very well what an ethnically mixed area looks like. That's not how things generally look in Israel. Firstly source what your saying. Secondly that is not what ethnostate means, it means this. a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.
"they actively promoted the concept of a white ethnostate"And I may as well post this, since it is far more related than Nebuchad's links. https://theconversation.com/israels-mosaic-of-jewish-ethnic-groups-is-key-to-understanding-the-country-217893 There isn't "the" one definition of ethnostate, there are a number of different ones. For example: "a country populated by, or dominated by the interests of, a single racial or ethnic group" The key word is "or". An ethnostate could be a state where a single ethnic group has citizenship and others do not. That is one possibility. But an ethnostate could instead be a state where the interests of a single ethnic group overshadow those of other ethnic groups. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ethnostate Then you are back to having a definition that includes a whole crap ton of countries that basically no one thinks of ethnostates. China would come to mind, the Han are very advantaged. But you could probably name well over 50 countries. Maybe it's time for you to realize how many ethnostates in fact do exist. We're not living in a utopia. Wait we’re not? Great point. I await you and men using the term to define all the countries it applies to that are not Israel. I won’t hold my breath though. Most countries in the world are ethnostates to varying degrees. It's not so much a question of "if", but how severe the discrimination is that ethnic minorities have to deal with. If you make a definition loose enough so all countries fit it loses its meaning. As Neb pointed out ethnostate brings up negative feelings because when people talk about it they generally are referring to the white supremacists who want a white ethnostate. Its main point is to restrict citizenship to whites. Israel clearly does not restrict citizenship to non whites since 30 percent are not Jewish and none of you can find restrictions. When Neb uses the term he wants that image to come to mind and not the definition you are using. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_ethnostateA White ethnostate is a proposed type of state in which residence or citizenship would be limited to Whites, and non-whites and any other groups not seen as white would be excluded from citizenship. Within the Anglosphere, the natives of their respective countries would also be excluded from citizenship, such as the Indigenous people of the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Just a few comments ago you had a fairly easy time naming dozens of ethnostate candidates based exclusively on the definition that the citizens are predominantly of one ethnicity. 47 countries to be exact. Now you're arguing any definition of ethnostate would be too loose to be applied to most countries in the world?
The point is that people are using "ethnostate" as another weapon to use to attack Israel when 47 other countries fit the definition better. I get it that this is the Israel vs Hamas thread, but when 47 of the world's countries do it worse, perhaps leveling that complaint against Israel (and not the 47 others) comes from a different place than an honest attempt at criticism.
Something like South Korea is much more of an ethnostate than Israel. Is it some awful place that everyone should avoid and boycott? Should we demand that they disarm? Should the US pull all help from them?
Putting it into world perspective, I don't think the ethnostate criticism is genuine. It's just another gotcha word thrown at Israel in the hopes that one of them will stick. Genocide didn't. Apartheid really doesn't fit. Ethnic cleansing is a maybe, but then we have to reckon with the fact that a huge portion of Israelis were ethnically cleansed off their land and ended up in Israel. The Israel critics just kinda shrug at that fact, almost like they don't actually care about ethnic cleansing.
And now we get ethnostate. 48th worst in the world!
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On December 06 2023 10:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2023 10:20 Salazarz wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_PeopleA. The land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.
B. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to self-determination.
C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people. If that's not an ethnostate, I honestly don't know what is. It’s not complicated, it does not restrict others. If a country decides to let all the lgtbq2+ in because the world becomes so hateful that in more and more places start making it illegal for them to live and even stop killing them will you give them a negative term and claim they are discriminating against all the heteros? You guys are basically making the white lives matter arguments at this point BTW.
If a country decides to let all the lgbtq2+ to live in it, and puts the interests of lgbtq2+ above hetero people living there and makes it part of their constitution that lgbtq2+ have more rights than hetero people, then yes, I will claim that they are discriminating against heteros because that's literally what discrimination means, no matter what reasons you have for it?
Like, if you want to argue that Israel has good reason for being a Jewish ethnostate and that it should remain as such because otherwise such and such bad things would happen, that's fine -- plenty of people hold that opinion; actually, to some extent I agree with that myself; I think if Israel were to simply give equal rights to everyone living in Israel as well as the territories occupied by Israel right now, their country would likely be ruined; and I do think that they are making at least some progress, however slow, towards becoming less discriminatory. But it's still an ethnostate today.
Also, how can you claim that a country which enshrines it in law that only one ethnic group has the right to national self-determination is 'not restricting others'? If a law grants a rather significant right to only one specific group of peoples, it absolutely is restricting others.
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Since when were the deranged opinions of white supremacists relevant?
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On December 06 2023 11:23 gobbledydook wrote:Since when were the deranged opinions of white supremacists relevant?
Since the leading proponents of establishing the US (which is uniquely aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign) as an ethnostate cite Israel as the ethnostate they want to imitate amid a discussion on whether Israel is an ethnostate and the implications thereof.
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I also learned that when Egypt flooded the Hamas tunnels that were being used to smuggled supplies and weapons past them they did not use water.... but sewage.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/21/world/middleeast/egypts-floods-smuggling-tunnels-to-gaza-with-sewage.html
Israeli DefenSe Forces (IDF), under the guidance of Shin Bet and Military Intelligence, successfully eliminated Hamas commanders who were hiding in a tunnel during a targeted operation. They have unveiled exclusive documentation of senior Hamas terrorists hiding in secretive network of Hamas tunnels. A targeted IDF operation, guided by Shin Bet intelligence, uncovered a tunnel beneath civilian homes near the Indonesian hospital in the Gaza Strip. This operation successfully eliminated key figures in Ham, including Brigade Commander Ahmed Jandor, Deputy Commander Al Rajab, and other senior officials responsible for military formations and observations in the northern part of the Gaza Strip. Of particular significance is Ahmed Jandor, a member of the limited council of the military branch, whose role in directing and managing all terrorist activities in the northern area of the Gaza Strip is now brought to light. Simultaneously, the Gaza City Brigade, the largest within Hamas, faced severe blows during the IDF operation. Four commanders of the battalions Zabra, Shati, Darj Tapah, and Shejaiya were among those targeted. In the operation, the IDF also uncovered an underground infrastructure beneath Shifa hospital. The army released never-before-seen photos reveal the extent of Hamas tunnels.
Source
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Northern Ireland25468 Posts
On December 06 2023 11:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2023 11:23 gobbledydook wrote:Since when were the deranged opinions of white supremacists relevant? Since the leading proponents of establishing the US (which is uniquely aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign) as an ethnostate cite Israel as the ethnostate they want to imitate amid a discussion on whether Israel is an ethnostate and the implications thereof.
Yes encountered plenty of this over the years from a ‘how come the Jews get an ethnostate and we don’t?’ with all the anti-Senmitic tropes one should expect.
To be fair I assume it’s also a rather shallow, surface level thing and most parroting that haven’t really looked in to what Israel is actually like internally
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EPT![[image loading]](https://cdn.i24news.tv/uploads/d9/73/c3/be/93/47/ef/e2/79/49/98/9b/33/68/a5/a5/d973c3be9347efe27949989b3368a5a5.png?width=750&type=webp)
