EPTThe Government refuses to listen, time to mass protest and riot.
2020 US Election - Page 95
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
The Government refuses to listen, time to mass protest and riot. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:27 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: In other news Oregon has decriminalized hard drugs so we will have a Portugal experiment going on in the west coast. The DSA won 26 out of the 30 races they were in. Florida voted to raise the minimum wage to $15. Florida is going to hugely regret that vote. Passed by 1% so disappointed. I do think voting for $$$$ should be prohibited on ballots. These things almost always pass no matter what via direct democracy referendums. It's the equivalent of Vote Yes if you want free 5000$ Vote No if you don't. Legal graft imho. By the way I've never understood how people believe you can create wealth by edict then low-ball themselves. Why 15$? Why not 18$? 22$? It's so arbitrary. (Why will 15$ Min Wage improve the economy more than a 20$ min wage? At what point do Min Wage advocates believe the wage creates massive unemployment?) | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24212 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:33 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The US should adopt the French model. Strong labor unions, and solidarity. The Government refuses to listen, time to mass protest and riot. Firefighters fist fighting cops is something I'm guilty of romanticizing. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27238 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:23 Wegandi wrote: Dude, you realize the Government figures are inflation adjusted and based on CPI? Like...why do I even bother. The reason I brought up the common criticism from EU posters about US healthcare is precisely that we pay more and get worse outcomes but you solution for education is just throwing money at the problem and expecting better outcomes. You have an a priori assertion that has no basis in fact. Money =/= outcomes (sans reductio ad absurdum, of course 0$ public spending will result in no public education outcomes, etc., but the fact that spending has increased since the 50s and outcomes have went down is relevant). I think you’re right here, albeit depends how education funding is distributed too. We could have a net average spend increase but it be less equitably spread for example. Education isn’t simply well, education in the classroom on a tangent. It’s a society-wide thing reinforced and perpetuated in all sorts of domain, especially the media which is one’s lens to the wider world after all. Market trends and culture have dumbed down the dissemination of much news and analysis to the point of it being hard to gleam any value or wider understanding from. Not to mention the partisanship that came with such trends, but it only takes a cursory glance at old news shows or Presidential speeches to notice the removal of articulation of complex ideas and values. The flip side of that is the market niches and technological advances have opened up forums for reading and discussion that are more sophisticated and rich for those who want to make use of them. I would hazard a guess the negatives of the former outweigh the positives of the latter unless you’re a politics nerd/hobbyist. I’m not a particular expert on US education by a long shot, for all I know it could be very good but that’s merely one facet of having an educated and discerning populace and the wider culture doesn’t look especially conducive to that (don’t get me wrong the U.K. isn’t exactly great here either). | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:16 Dante08 wrote: Instead of thinking it's crazy maybe people should actually figure out why Donald Trump can garner so many votes. I mean doing it once is crazy enough but getting so many votes twice? People should really thinking about it instead of dismissing people who vote for Trump as stupid or insane. It's not exactly complex. Partisanship, racism, and lack of education in critical thinking skills. None of these are new, Trump just went harder on the 2nd and 3rd points than any past president. The average american is tribalistic and under-educated. Just watch our football. The first is how he got most republicans to vote for him. The second is how he increased his vote share among non-college educated whites in 2016 (and apparently Cubans in 2020). To those that say Trump isn't racist, fine, whatever. It's his appeal to and courting of the racist vote. It's his opposition to legal immigration. Everyone, on both sides, said they opposed illegal immigration. It was only Trump that wanted to cut legal immigration from, as he puts it, shithole countries. Political analysts (yes, both democrats and republicans) have always known that appealing to racists is a winning strategy to get a higher % of the white vote. Do you know why it hasn't been done so blatantly before? Because of their fears about the long-term impact on the party if they become known as the party of racism. The last point, though, is the most important. Critical thinking isn't a description of how vital it is, it is a description of what it is. Those are the skills that are taught to people that allow them to find the weaknesses in arguments. This lets someone deflate most of Trump's rhetorical techniques and logical fallacies. For an example, anyone who has taken English 101 in College will generally get a crash course on logical fallacies (my class used Hitler's speeches). Until about 2014 this wasn't really a partisan thing either - it was easy to find flaws in democrats or GOP speeches. With Trump out of power, I think the GOP senate is going to actually be in disarray. Especially if he winds up in jail and has his assets seized by Deutshe Bank, as seems extremely likely. They've tethered themselves so strongly to him that they literally had no policies as a party when they campaigned. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46248 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:28 Zambrah wrote: I hear Mississippi (!!!!!) legalized marijuana too. New Jersey did too  On November 04 2020 23:21 PhoenixVoid wrote: In the event of a Biden presidency, I hope he still has his Senate negotiating skills he's renowned for, because a 48-52 or 49-51 Senate under McConnell is going to obstruct everything he wants to achieve. It makes 2022 even more vital to win if they want to pass legislature or anything close to discussing reforms to the Supreme Court. Agreed. It'll come down to convincing a few Republican Senators to vote against their own party, when it comes time to push through important legislature. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27238 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:39 Wegandi wrote: Florida is going to hugely regret that vote. Passed by 1% so disappointed. I do think voting for $$$$ should be prohibited on ballots. These things almost always pass no matter what via direct democracy referendums. It's the equivalent of Vote Yes if you want free 5000$ Vote No if you don't. Legal graft imho. By the way I've never understood how people believe you can create wealth by edict then low-ball themselves. Why 15$? Why not 18$? 22$? It's so arbitrary. (Why will 15$ Min Wage improve the economy more than a 20$ min wage? At what point do Min Wage advocates believe the wage creates massive unemployment?) Do other tax policies appear on such ballots for direct voting or is tax policy ringfenced for the legislatures themselves to dictated | ||
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AsariCommando
United States18 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
There will be a lot of talk about how polling of individual states was off (like FL), but the actual models did a pretty damn good job. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:42 WombaT wrote: Do other tax policies appear on such ballots for direct voting or is tax policy ringfenced for the legislatures themselves to dictated Generally tax issues will be on the ballot but not specific #'s. Eg. We had 2 tax issues on the ballot this year, but it was for extending benefits to veteran widows and increasing one benefit from 2 years to 3. (Both being basically a decrease in property tax revenue, but not adjusting the actual millage rates) Likewise I think tax # and policy should not be on the ballot as well. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7347 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8153 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:33 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The US should adopt the French model. Strong labor unions, and solidarity. The Government refuses to listen, time to mass protest and riot. The french unions are a total shitshow. VERY few workers are unionized, and they just say no to anything the government puts forward, even when it makes perfect sense. We have strikes all the time, and half of the time it's to defend completely outdated and absurd privileges acquired 80 years ago by a lucky minority. As a result, unions are never part of reforms, are not being listened to by the government and are super unpopular. Their only contribution is purely defensive. Germany or Scandinavia, where almost every worker is unionized and where the government and the unions actually work together, is a much, much, much better model. That being said, I prefer bad unions to no unions, but France is really not glamorous on that front. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:40 GreenHorizons wrote: Firefighters fist fighting cops is something I'm guilty of romanticizing. Firefighters would side with cops 95% of the time. The entire first responder culture is extremely toxic in America. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24212 Posts
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:45 Stratos_speAr wrote: Another interesting side story here is that many people (like Wegandi) tried to dunk hard on pollsters and modelers like 538, whereas every model had the current projected outcome within the realm of their "likely" outcomes. There will be a lot of talk about how polling of individual states was off (like FL), but the actual models did a pretty damn good job. What? The polls had Biden beating Trump by 1% in Florida (that's a huge error), had Biden winning WI by 7%, MI by 4-5%, etc. It is across the board the polls are off by 4%+ in one direction. The polls sucked and weren't close. Look how bad this is lol https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27238 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:40 Nevuk wrote: It's not exactly complex. Partisanship, racism, and lack of education in critical thinking skills. None of these are new, Trump just went harder on the 2nd and 3rd points than any past president. The average american is tribalistic and under-educated. Just watch our football. The first is how he got most republicans to vote for him. The second is how he increased his vote share among non-college educated whites in 2016 (and apparently Cubans in 2020). To those that say Trump isn't racist, fine, whatever. It's his appeal to and courting of the racist vote. It's his opposition to legal immigration. Everyone, on both sides, said they opposed illegal immigration. It was only Trump that wanted to cut legal immigration from, as he puts it, shithole countries. Political analysts (yes, both democrats and republicans) have always known that appealing to racists is a winning strategy to get a higher % of the white vote. Do you know why it hasn't been done so blatantly before? Because of their fears about the long-term impact on the party if they become known as the party of racism. The last point, though, is the most important. Critical thinking isn't a description of how vital it is, it is a description of what it is. Those are the skills that are taught to people that allow them to find the weaknesses in arguments. This lets someone deflate most of Trump's rhetorical techniques and logical fallacies. For an example, anyone who has taken English 101 in College will generally get a crash course on logical fallacies (my class used Hitler's speeches). Until about 2014 this wasn't really a partisan thing either - it was easy to find flaws in democrats or GOP speeches. With Trump out of power, I think the GOP senate is going to actually be in disarray. Especially if he winds up in jail and has his assets seized by Deutshe Bank, as seems extremely likely. They've tethered themselves so strongly to him that they literally had no policies as a party when they campaigned. Trump doesn’t really have arguments this is the confusing thing to me. I mean he will say diametrically opposing things a day apart or whatever and if you point it out it’s fingers in the ears time. My best guess is for many they’re not deficient in these skills he’s just become the emotional avatar in a war against their other gripes against the libs/deep state or what have you. As per your football example, I’m a big fan of our football but in a neutral kind of capacity and enjoy watching in bars. It is quite illuminating the differences in perception to calls between myself or other neutrals and fans of the teams that are playing, who can be quite myopically biased. Then you have hardcore partisan fans who are still able to criticise their team, or admit when they got a lucky call etc. It’s quite interesting how emotional attachment and rationality intersect differently in different people. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On November 04 2020 23:51 GreenHorizons wrote: I feel like there's still another big shoe to drop soon. Like a bunch of votes materialize or disappear/get destroyed inexplicably for either candidate or something. Maybe I've just been up too long and am hallucinating. Pretty sure regardless of what actually happens people will claim that's happening-the idea that early votes are counted first in some states and last in others appears to be too much for the American public. | ||
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