EPT2020 US Election - Page 297
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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KwarK
United States43971 Posts
On November 13 2020 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Assuming DC and PR do become states one day, and each get 2 senators, making the total 104, would those additional 4 senators likely be Democrats? Republicans? Split? PR could go Republican eventually if they get the hang of hiding racism because Catholics are pretty conservative. DC is unlikely to. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
NINJA'D :D | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On November 13 2020 01:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Assuming DC and PR do become states one day, and each get 2 senators, making the total 104, would those additional 4 senators likely be Democrats? Republicans? Split? DC would be democrats. PR no one really knows. Their parties have nothing in common with mainland ones. Without Trump on the ticket they may actually lean R (his paper towel misadventures were uh, not well received). They're not as conservative as Cubans, but they're pretty conservative and extremely religious (~70% catholic,~25% protestant - over 90% are Christian). That's why dual statehood always been proposed as a compromise by democrats - it favors them somewhat but not as massively as DC statehood alone would. (For an example of just how conservative, their last governor, who was popularly elected, had to resign after leaked homophobic and racist texts got leaked. ) | ||
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Husyelt
United States837 Posts
It’s nearly impossible today to get somewhat immediate honest news today. Every article is rushed out to either be the first “news” or to shield against the “news”. So by the time things get verified and sources are all lined up we have 200 articles from right or left organizations to muddy what actually happened. Just spent like an hour trying to follow that alleged voter fraud crap and got nothing. Other than Veritas is still a thing after their previous debacles and gets circulated into the actual news. I wish there were republican ban hammers from strategists and devil’s advocates that would keep this out of the news. | ||
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Yurie
12084 Posts
On November 13 2020 02:13 Husyelt wrote: Project Veritas is the only actual journalism worth reading! They’re the only ones brave enough to conjure up a completely fabricated narrative to get those clicks. It’s nearly impossible today to get somewhat immediate honest news today. Every article is rushed out to either be the first “news” or to shield against the “news”. So by the time things get verified and sources are all lined up we have 200 articles from right or left organizations to muddy what actually happened. Just spent like an hour trying to follow that alleged voter fraud crap and got nothing. Other than Veritas is still a thing after their previous debacles and gets circulated into the actual news. I wish there were republican ban hammers from strategists and devil’s advocates that would keep this out of the news. Saw a sponsored commercial for https://ground.news/ that claims to show the lean of news. Never used it myself since it is US focused but I assume it and similar apps will help with your problem. | ||
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Husyelt
United States837 Posts
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RenSC2
United States1089 Posts
On November 12 2020 20:20 Zambrah wrote: Its why we cant tolerate people like Joe Manchin imo, sure hes theoretically better than a Republican, but hes also going to fuck over any necessary legislation to get money out of politics, to reform finance, to improve education, to cut down on the military. We need to start primarying these people are letting them know if they want to keep their positions of influence and power they need to start making an effort for the constituents. This is what always baffles me about the left. Your target is Joe Manchin. Why? Why isn’t your target Shelley Moore Capito (Republican)? She’s the other senator from West Virginia. Her seat counts just as much as Joe Manchin’s seat. She just destroyed Paula Jean Swearengin by a 70-27 margin. Swearengin is the pro Medicare-for-All candidate. She won a 3-way primary 38-33-29. Would she have won in a 2-way race or ranked ballot? Maybe not. She was also the candidate who challenged Manchin in 2018 primary and lost 70-30 (where Manchin barely won 50-46 in the general). So, it seems like Manchin is representing what his constituents want, not the M4A candidate. Manchin isn’t proof that a liberal or leftist can win in WV. He’s proof that a conservative with a D next to his name can. But if you really think somehow that M4A is a winner in West Virginia despite the evidence, then why not push for Capito’s seat? Even if he votes against almost every Democrat bill, Manchin still gets the democrats one seat closer to the senate majority and the ability to actually vote on bills passed by the democratic led house. Sure, go to WV and try to make M4A popular. I’m all for that. Get Swearengin to beat Capito, that would be amazing. But stop shooting yourself in the foot by constantly targeting a person that agrees with you on a tiny bit rather than targeting the person who stops you completely. People will eventually realize that you’re just as bad as the Republicans when it comes to actually making deals and getting shit done. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
If we keep primarying him and losing, thats fine, thats the will of the people, but we should never stop trying. The point isnt to win in one shot the point is to make it clear that the Democrats are going to be primaried and need to step the fuck up. Your argument is based entirely on the idea that we can only do one thing at once, its basically whataboutism. We can target the Republican senators, and we can target the Democrat senators, we can educate people about M4A and 15 dollar minimum wage, and unionization while we do so, there is nothing saying we can only do one thing at a time. Manchin is already a gun loaded at our foot, I'd rather make him worry for his seat than let him sit in the corner and threaten to fire into our feet over shit like PR and DC statehood and M4A with complete safety. I have repeated time and time again we will not win every election. We don't need to, we just need to apply pressure where we can, win the seats we win and use those seats as leverage. Also Manchin is an incumbent and extremely familiar to West Virginians with the backing of the DNC money machine, he, like every entrenched DNC congressperson, is always going to be an uphill battle and saying its exclusively on policy is ignoring the huge systematic advantages that they're going to receive. | ||
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RenSC2
United States1089 Posts
I had to look up Capito because I had never heard of her. Manchin and Capito are elected by the exact same voter base. Why would anyone on the left target Manchin while being consistently quiet about Capito? Capito was even up for election this time while Manchin is another 4 years out. Still, the attacks are always against Manchin. He’s almost as big of a boogeyman as McConnell. If I was a Rupert Murdoch type, I would love to push the Manchin attacks on social media and in left leaning rags I own. The constant attacks on him weaken his position and help to unseat him (in favor of another Republican) despite the incumbent advantage that he has. Meanwhile, the attacks also give so much cover for Capito and other Republicans in Republican leaning states to fly under the radar as the default. The left sure likes to cannibalize itself and make sure that it has no allies. Sometimes I wonder if that is by design and that the people on the left are being manipulated by the corporatist people they are supposedly fighting against. | ||
RvB
Netherlands6273 Posts
On November 12 2020 21:14 Nebuchad wrote: For people like me who don't know a lot about economic theory, they function essentially like a religion for the market. You coming up and saying that a particular theory is debunked means absolutely nothing to me. Some years ago all economists would have told us that austrian economics were "correct", now some will insist they are "debunked"... Those are not really interesting conversations, to me. People favor the economic theories that are consistent with their political goals. The part of your post I bolded won't really happen. Economics used to be based on theory but in the last few decades it has become much more based on data and empirical evidence. Austrian economics and MMT aren't taken seriously because they don't provide provide empirical evidence to support their claims. In contrast if you provide evidence it will be taken seriously and sometimes adopted into the mainstream. Of course economics has it's fair share of problems. Imo it's too dogmatic and you can't do things like a randomised controlled trial for economics on a macro scale. As to your first point in regards to market fundamentalism that's really not true. It's true that markets are generally considered to be the most efficient way to allocate resources but the concept of market failure is well known and researched. If you're on Reddit you should go to /r AskEconomics and /r BadEconomics (don't go to /t economics though it's aweful) and you'll see it much more nuanced than just markets = good and government = bad. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12453 Posts
On November 13 2020 04:31 RvB wrote: The part of your post I bolded won't really happen. Economics used to be based on theory but in the last few decades it has become much more based on data and empirical evidence. Austrian economics and MMT aren't taken seriously because they don't provide provide empirical evidence to support their claims. In contrast if you provide evidence it will be taken seriously and sometimes adopted into the mainstream. Of course economics has it's fair share of problems. Imo it's too dogmatic and you can't do things like a randomised controlled trial for economics on a macro scale. As to your first point in regards to market fundamentalism that's really not true. It's true that markets are generally considered to be the most efficient way to allocate resources but the concept of market failure is well known and researched. If you're on Reddit you should go to /r AskEconomics and /r BadEconomics (don't go to /t economics though it's aweful) and you'll see it much more nuanced than just markets = good and government = bad. Yeah Sbrubbles pointed out that I was wrong about this as well. I accept that. Like I said, I don't know much. If anything the fact that Austrian economics have become so prominent even though they aren't taken seriously probably reinforces my view that you really start from the politics and then get the economics you want based on the goals you have. I'm fine with markets as you may or may not remember, just cut out the capitalists and we're there :p (Edit: Fuck me, I mixed some things up, I was thinking about Friedman which is Chicago, not Austrian. Maybe what I said still doesn't work, I dunno) | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6273 Posts
On November 12 2020 21:44 iamthedave wrote: Wegandi gets piled on because half of the time he posts nonsense and/or unsupported right wing talking points without the slightest hint of understanding or nuance. I absolutely believe that its possible to be right wing without explicitly being a troll and actively trying to piss off people who aren't. For some reason most of the right wing posters here aren't able to achieve that. Many of them have a habit of posting weak arguments and refusing to engage with the substance of arguments raised in response to them. In their less combative, less trolly moods there's been plenty of proper discussion and engagement with right wing posters. Even polite disagreement at times. There's a reason tons of the right wing posters got multiple thread bans and its not political bias on the side of the mods. All fair, but you must be aware that the will - either public or political - isn't there for those sorts of massive reforms. There's certainly interest in certain sectors, and weirdly there's popular support for many of the ideas in isolation, but the second its attached to an actual person with an actual platform people don't vote for them at the presidential level. AOC and 'The Group' seem to be the only hope for something like that to work within the Democratic Party, but who knows how long the legs are on that group of progressives? America is a right wing nation. As a Brit, it's insane listening to Americans talk about Socialism, when the entire political spectrum consists of right wing and righter wing, and every election cycle it becomes even more right wing. I almost wish I could believe it was all some evil top-down conspiracy, but the fact is, these are the beliefs that get the votes. The thing is that from my perspective I see a lot of nonsense and unsupported left wing talking points without a lot of nuance. If you'd just follow this thread you'd think that Republicans are lesser humans and Biden is centre right in Europe. Neither are bad arguments or bad faith posting exclusive to the (ex) right wingers. To me there's a pretty clear left bias in both the posters and the moderation. It's pretty much unavoidable though since the internet generally trends left and we all have our biases. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6273 Posts
On November 13 2020 04:41 Nebuchad wrote: Yeah Sbrubbles pointed out that I was wrong about this as well. I accept that. Like I said, I don't know much. If anything the fact that Austrian economics have become so prominent even though they aren't taken seriously probably reinforces my view that you really start from the politics and then get the economics you want based on the goals you have. I'm fine with markets as you may or may not remember, just cut out the capitalists and we're there :p (Edit: Fuck me, I mixed some things up, I was thinking about Friedman which is Chicago, not Austrian. Maybe what I said still doesn't work, I dunno) Yes sadly economics frequently gets used for political ends. The actual (social) science is a different beast entirely. You'll find both left and right wingers as economists. There's a reason why Keynes and Friedman are considered the two best economists of the 20th century. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28794 Posts
That said, RvB, while I think the republican (voters, not politicians) are evil is a very bad angle, Biden is certainly center-right in Western Europe.. I don't understand how you'd arrive at a different conclusion from that? (And eastern - southeastern europe doesn't have many a whole lot of representatives here, and it's also even less uniform.) | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28794 Posts
Is this accurate and is it consequential? Googling it I wasn't able to find English sources confirming it, but I saw some source claiming that this would at most invalidate 14k votes (so not enough to flip the state. ) Anyone in the know here? | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On November 13 2020 05:38 Liquid`Drone wrote: Bringing this back to the US election, a Norwegian newspaper (that I find reasonably reliable) just posted that Trump won one of his PA lawsuits about invalidating ballots where voters required to prove IDs had to do so by November 9th? Or something to that effect? Is this accurate and is it consequential? Googling it I wasn't able to find English sources confirming it, but I saw some source claiming that this would at most invalidate 14k votes (so not enough to flip the state. ) Anyone in the know here? It appears correct: https://www.post-gazette.com/news/crime-courts/2020/11/12/trump-campaign-election-2020-presidential-pennsylvania-lawsuit-ballots-late-identification/stories/202011120132 However the key line: These ballots had been segregated pending the judge’s decision and have not yet been counted, so their disqualification will not affect the current vote count in Pennsylvania. Joe Biden won the state, and subsequently the election, on Saturday and currently leads President Trump by more than 53,000 votes. | ||
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KwarK
United States43971 Posts
On November 13 2020 05:38 Liquid`Drone wrote: Bringing this back to the US election, a Norwegian newspaper (that I find reasonably reliable) just posted that Trump won one of his PA lawsuits about invalidating ballots where voters required to prove IDs had to do so by November 9th? Or something to that effect? Is this accurate and is it consequential? Googling it I wasn't able to find English sources confirming it, but I saw some source claiming that this would at most invalidate 14k votes (so not enough to flip the state. ) Anyone in the know here? https://www.inquirer.com/news/pennsylvania-election-trump-lawsuits-legal-challenves-id-mail-ballots-commonwealth-court-20201112.html?outputType=amp Looks like those votes weren’t counted in the first place. They’re affirming that they’re not going to count them. Biden’s lead is unchanged. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12453 Posts
On November 13 2020 05:32 Liquid`Drone wrote: I don't think Austrian economics has ever really had political prominence, the only people I've seen championing austrian economics are libertarians - a group with very little overall political influence or support. All of my recent posts should be read as if I were a knowledgeable person and had written Chicago instead of Austrian, sorry about that ^^' | ||
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
www.post-gazette.com | ||
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