EPTAnd, btw, FoxNews is not a credible news source. GTFO with that, lol.
Coronavirus and You - Page 693
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5712 Posts
And, btw, FoxNews is not a credible news source. GTFO with that, lol. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On June 17 2023 17:33 maybenexttime wrote: Seriously, stop with the gaslighting. I had zero issues accessing mainstream media discussing various hypotheses of the virus's origins here in Europe. And if you get your news from a Facebook feed, I think you've got a bigger issue, tbh. And, btw, FoxNews is not a credible news source. GTFO with that, lol. All you've done is declare that the lab leak hypothesis was not suppressed and only the bioweapon theory was suppressed. When I offered direct examples to the contrary with links you call it fake news and double down while offering nothing but your own declaration as evidence. You're obviously the one trying to do the gaslighting. Jon Stewart says he was maligned as a racist for supporting the lab leak theory. Is he gaslighting also? Btw if this was so freely discussed as a potential hypothesis and no big deal why do you think Jon Stewart talking about it on a late night talk show was national news? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5712 Posts
Meanwhile, if you google "covid leak laboratory wuhan" and set the time frame to the first six months of the pandemic, you'll find dozens of articles from reputable sources discussing the hypothesis in earnest: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/ https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2020/05/02/the-pieces-of-the-puzzle-of-covid-19s-origin-are-coming-to-light https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2020/05/10/a-timeline-of-the-covid-19-wuhan-lab-origin-theory/ https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52318539 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/five-eyes-network-contradicts-theory-covid-19-leaked-from-lab https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics/us-intelligence-virus-started-chinese-lab/index.html https://newsweek.com/controversial-wuhan-lab-experiments-that-may-have-started-coronavirus-pandemic-1500503 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/coronavirus-wasnt-created-in-lab-no-signs-genetic-engineering-1.5508735 https://www.ft.com/content/255a3524-0459-4724-a92a-58268ab627e2 https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-bats-expert-says-her-wuhan-lab-wasnt-source-of-new-coronavirus-11587463204 https://abc.net.au/news/2020-04-18/coronavirus-misinformation-origin-theory-donald-trump-wuhan-lab/12158774 That sure does look like suppression... I won't comment on Jon Stewart. I don't know anything about him aside from the fact that he exists. I have no idea what claims he was making at the time, whether he was actually suppressed in any way or how credible he is. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26224 Posts
The lab leak theory getting some pushback and suppression is pretty small fry in the wider scheme of things. Not unworthy of discussion sure by all means, but in an abject failure of our collective information dissemination structures, feels very forest for the trees. At least on this corner of the internet I don’t even recall all that much hostility to at least discussing the lab leak theory, albeit less so the engineered bio-weapon angle. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On June 17 2023 21:26 maybenexttime wrote: You gave one example: Facebook. That hardly qualifies as a widespread campaign to suppress anything. Also what was being suppressed, according to your source, were claims of the virus being manufactured or man-made. That claim is hardly different from the bio-weapon claim. It differs only in the motive. Like I said, at the time there was no evidence to support that. The scientific consensus was that the virus seemed to have had a natural origin. I am not qualified to say whether it was justified. Meanwhile, if you google "covid leak laboratory wuhan" and set the time frame to the first six months of the pandemic, you'll find dozens of articles from reputable sources discussing the hypothesis in earnest: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/ https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2020/05/02/the-pieces-of-the-puzzle-of-covid-19s-origin-are-coming-to-light https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2020/05/10/a-timeline-of-the-covid-19-wuhan-lab-origin-theory/ https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52318539 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/five-eyes-network-contradicts-theory-covid-19-leaked-from-lab https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics/us-intelligence-virus-started-chinese-lab/index.html https://newsweek.com/controversial-wuhan-lab-experiments-that-may-have-started-coronavirus-pandemic-1500503 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/coronavirus-wasnt-created-in-lab-no-signs-genetic-engineering-1.5508735 https://www.ft.com/content/255a3524-0459-4724-a92a-58268ab627e2 https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-bats-expert-says-her-wuhan-lab-wasnt-source-of-new-coronavirus-11587463204 https://abc.net.au/news/2020-04-18/coronavirus-misinformation-origin-theory-donald-trump-wuhan-lab/12158774 That sure does look like suppression... I won't comment on Jon Stewart. I don't know anything about him aside from the fact that he exists. I have no idea what claims he was making at the time, whether he was actually suppressed in any way or how credible he is. Facebook is the largest social media cite in the world. What do you think that does to monetization if the article you wrote investigating lab leak is not allowed to be shared there? Do you think maybe it hurts incentive to investigate things if your article is not allowed to see the light of day there? Most of the links you offered mention in some way or another that lab leak is a conspiracy, debunked, has no evidence, and is primarily supported by right-wingers like Trump. See when I mentioned suppression it's in regards to that nobody wants to speak publicly because nobody wants to be maligned as a right-wing racist conspiracy theorist. Offering links that call lab leak a conspiracy promoted by right-wingers doesn't help your cause. https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/555394-the-memo-media-face-hard-questions-on-trump-wuhan-lab/?rl=1 Both The New York Times and The Washington Post, for example, accused Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) of spreading a “conspiracy theory” when he called for more investigation of the lab leak theory. An NPR report said there was “virtually no chance” the thesis was correct. The fact-checking website PolitiFact called the idea that the virus was man-made a “debunked conspiracy theory” — a finding that it has recently retracted. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
professor Robert Garry, said he could see no "plausible natural scenario" for key amino acids and nucleotides to have been inserted into a bat virus Mike Farzan (dubbed the "discoverer of SARS receptor" and a professor of immunology at Scripps Research) found a key aspect of the virus "highly unlikely" to have developed outside a lab. The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan. 31, 2020. Andersen added that he and University of Sydney virologist and evolutionary biologist Edward Holmes, plus a handful of other top scientists with whom Fauci was on a first-name basis, “all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory. In one email to Fauci, Collins, and another NIH official, Farrar wrote, “On a spectrum if 0 is nature and 100 is release—I am honestly at 50!” Farrar reported that Farzan was “70:30” or “60:40” in favor of an “accidental-release” explanation and that “Bob” — an apparent reference to Robert Garry — was also surprised by the presence of a furin cleavage site in this virus. Farrar quoted Bob saying: “I just can’t figure out how this gets accomplished in nature. … it’s stunning.” They weren't only concerned with where the virus originated but also what the virus originating in the lab could mean for science and relations with China But in another email from the same day referenced in the lawmakers' letter, Ron Fouchier, the deputy head of the Erasmus MC Department of Viroscience, seemed to embrace the theory that the virus occurred naturally and warned that lab leak discussions could "do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular." Fauci agreed on the need to get ahead of social media to set the narrative on behalf of science “I agree that we really cannot take Ron’s suggestion about waiting,” Fauci wrote on February 2. “Like all of us, I do not know how this evolved, but given the concerns of so many people and the threat of further distortions on social media, it is essential that we move quickly.” A month later Proximal Origin was published in Nature labeling the lab origin idea as implausible | ||
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Sadist
United States7300 Posts
Is there any evidence it was a man made virus? If a virus was found in the wild but through fuckups at the lab in handling it became more wide spread, would that not be different than it being man made? Man made has a more nefarious connotation. I think its an important difference. A wild virus getting loose at a lab is pretty plausible. A man made virus getting loose at a lab is possible but would need some pretty clear evidence correct? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5712 Posts
No, all those articles looked critically at the facts known at the time, consulted relevant experts and did or did not draw some conclusions. You're betting on people not checking those articles. We can analyse each one of them one by one if that's your kink. I thoroughly debunked your accusations of my alleged rewriting of history. If you insist on making yourself look like a clown, be my guest. ;-) | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5599 Posts
On June 18 2023 05:45 maybenexttime wrote: @BJ No, all those articles looked critically at the facts known at the time, consulted relevant experts and did or did not draw some conclusions. You're betting on people not checking those articles. We can analyse each one of them one by one if that's your kink. I thoroughly debunked your accusations of my alleged rewriting of history. If you insist on making yourself look like a clown, be my guest. ;-) What? I just read two of your sources randomly and they both treated the lab leak hypothesis as Trump's unfounded conspiracy theory. Just look at the last one: "Coronavirus may have come from a Chinese lab, if you believe Donald Trump — but experts disagree" "Scientists from multiple countries have published and analysed genomes of the causative agent, SARS-CoV-2, and they overwhelmingly conclude that this coronavirus originated in wildlife, as have so many other emerging pathogens. "Conspiracy theories do nothing but create fear, rumours, and prejudice that jeopardise our global collaboration in the fight against this virus." | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5712 Posts
On June 18 2023 06:12 Elroi wrote: What? I just read two of your sources randomly and they both treated the lab leak hypothesis as Trump's unfounded conspiracy theory. Just look at the last one: "Coronavirus may have come from a Chinese lab, if you believe Donald Trump — but experts disagree" I suggest you read all 12 and then come back. | ||
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Mikau
Netherlands1446 Posts
These same people then post links from all kinds of main stream media sources talking about the lab leak theory, as if a bunch of main stream sources talking about something is proof that that thing is being suppressed and censored? I swear, with how often conservatives claim their ideas are being censored and suppressed you would expect you could go anywhere without constantly being told about said conservative ideas. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On June 18 2023 07:09 Mikau wrote: How the fuck are people conflating "experts looked at the available evidence at the time and concluded the lab leak theory was unlikely" with censorship and suppressing? These same people then post links from all kinds of main stream media sources talking about the lab leak theory, as if a bunch of main stream sources talking about something is proof that that thing is being suppressed and censored? I swear, with how often conservatives claim their ideas are being censored and suppressed you would expect you could go anywhere without constantly being told about said conservative ideas. Well a perpetual victim complex will do that. Let’s assume the lab leak theory has legs, well why was China amongst the most stringent in anti-Covid protocols? Why was China not at the absolute forefront of dealing with it? They engineered after all, so it stands to reason they’d be absolutely at the forefront of dealing with it. Except they demonstrably weren’t It’s not like China’s economy didn’t suffer a lot | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On June 18 2023 05:45 Sadist wrote: I think you are conflating "man made" and lab leak. Is there any evidence it was a man made virus? If a virus was found in the wild but through fuckups at the lab in handling it became more wide spread, would that not be different than it being man made? Man made has a more nefarious connotation. I think its an important difference. A wild virus getting loose at a lab is pretty plausible. A man made virus getting loose at a lab is possible but would need some pretty clear evidence correct? Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically. Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On June 18 2023 06:12 Elroi wrote: What? I just read two of your sources randomly and they both treated the lab leak hypothesis as Trump's unfounded conspiracy theory. Just look at the last one: "Coronavirus may have come from a Chinese lab, if you believe Donald Trump — but experts disagree" It's a running theme that many on this forum have a very poor grasp on suppression/censorship in general. The rule of thumb here is "If I've heard about it then it hasn't been suppressed." or "If it exists somewhere on the internet it hasn't been suppressed." A few months ago we had a pages long discussion of people arguing that some vaccine video was not censored by youtube because although it was taken down there existed a mirror of it that had 1% of the views of the original. People are going to believe what they want. People have argued that Twitter/Facebook did not censor things that Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey have gone on record saying they made a mistake in censoring. Apparently it never even occurs to them to ask themselves "If facebook/twitter didn't censor this then what the fuck are Zuckerberg/Dorsey apologizing for." | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On June 18 2023 05:45 maybenexttime wrote: @BJ No, all those articles looked critically at the facts known at the time, consulted relevant experts and did or did not draw some conclusions. You're betting on people not checking those articles. We can analyse each one of them one by one if that's your kink. I thoroughly debunked your accusations of my alleged rewriting of history. If you insist on making yourself look like a clown, be my guest. ;-) Obviously the big problem here is that you lack the American perspective on this by being in Europe. Most of the suppression I'm talking about is not from people supporting lab leak being thrown into reeducation camps. Although there was some of the social media cites and their respective fact checkers censoring posts for misinformation the biggest form of censorship was a self-censorship that people undertook because of our societal group think that lab leak = MAGA = racist. Which seems to be the intentional strategy of those that pushed the natural origin explanation although their leaked emails show they thought lab leak was a very plausible possibility. Maybe you don't know anything about Jon Stewart but he is a very beloved figure on the left and nobody would generally believe him to be part of MAGA or a racist. When he says the 2 biggest reactions to him going on Colbert's show and expressing he believes in lab leak were "you're racist against Asian people" and "how dare you align yourself with the Right wing," that should tell you something. If you watch the clip you can see the whole time Colbert is uncomfortable in his chair and jokes "How long have you been working for Senator [Right-wing Sen]?" hardy har har. Y'know, because only right wing cronies would hold such a belief. He's basically a retired comedian at that point and it was national news that he supported lab leak. If you can't glean anything about how this situation in America might have been different than in Europe then oh well. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5712 Posts
As for why some in the US might've thought that the lab leak hypothesis shouldn't be given too much spotlight, consider this. In 2020 I was taking Korean classes at a university in the UK. There were some 20 Chinese students in the class. All of them said that they experienced harassment after the pandemic broke out. And that was without having a president riling people up in anti-Chinese hatred. | ||
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