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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.
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Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
Northern Ireland24512 Posts
On June 19 2023 06:55 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2023 06:07 WombaT wrote:On June 19 2023 04:46 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 04:09 Sermokala wrote:
I think we've established well that BJ doesn't see the connection between the lab-leak series of conspiracy theories as connected to the anti asian hate crimes that happened because of it. It does seems like he just has a huge axe to grind about not being able to say whatever he wants whenever he wants without obligation or consequences. Hes claimed in the past to be a "free speech absolutist" and clearly doesn't respect any regard for public health above that.
the fact is that there was no truth about the origin of covid at the start of the plague. There wasn't any truth about covid at the start and you had many people stating what they presumed was fact and acted out on those conspiracy theories. There was a lot of misinformation spread by the president of the united states at the time and there was a lot more spread on the internet. Which was and wasn't in the end misinformation isn't something you can judge with hindsight powers.
This has gone way past any actual discussion of the lab leak series of conspiracy theories and is now just back and forth about what someone considers legitimate suppression and fact checking vs someone else just not accepting any of it being valid. I didn’t say there was no connection between lab leak and anti-Asian hate. I said we don’t decide what is plausible based on what unsavory people will do with the information. After 9/11 lots of Muslim-Americans experienced anti-Muslim hate. Do you think we went around pretending the hijackers weren’t from the Middle East? Spoiler alert: we did not. Was it proven pretty quickly who carried out the 9/11 attacks and why? Irrefutably to all but the most conspiratorial amongst us? Was the lab leak theory? Or were people all the way up to the highest office in the land presenting a plausible theory as verifiable fact? There’s a difference between some hypothetical individual claiming the 9/11 hijackers were definitely Muslim fundamentalists without the smoking gun to show it, versus reportage of something that is proven to be the case. To draw a more equivalent parallel. I'm not comparing the evidence behind one claim to the other. I'm simply stating that a rational society doesn't decide what is true based on whose feelings might get hurt. This is a modern idea we've seem come around to recently. The conversation was about whether lab leak may or may not be true and whether it was or wasn't suppressed. Asians experiencing hate crimes is completely inconsequential to that conversation. If instead Sermokala was trying to make a different point that we were right to dismiss lab leak because conspiracies around it let to Asian hate crimes then fine. Like I said, I have a hard time trying to decipher what point he is trying to make.
The evidence is quite pertinent.
Muslims across the world got backlash after 9/11, that’s wider society’s problem in distinguishing a wider cohort from extremists, not them knowing the truth. 9/11 was perpetrated by Islamic fundamentalists, it is what it is.
Likewise Chinese, or indeed Asians mistaken for Chinese also got some backlash due to things adjacent to the lab leak. Again, wider society’s problem in how people chose to respond to certain information.
A difference being that the lab leak theory was it was a plausible theory in some quarters presented as proven truth, especially at the time.
So you don’t have that tradeoff of a truth that may come with undesired consequences, but instead an unproven theory being presented as thus, with the same negative externalities.
Does truth, proven truth actually have some value or not? It’s pretty pertinent to this topic.
You can’t have any meaningful conversation on the rights and wrongs of media suppression, or otherwise without examining the state of play and potential rationales for doing so.
As I’ve said many times in this thread, I think many missteps were made here, this may be one but isolating those calls from the surrounding conditions is a fruitless exercise. Lazer focusing on the rights or the wrongs in this instance without consideration for the reams of utter bollocks people were disseminating paints a very incomplete picture.
If one is concerned about truth one should be equally concerned about media suppression as they would someone like say, the US President misrepresenting plausible theories as immutable fact right?
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On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2023 18:26 BlackJack wrote:On June 18 2023 05:45 Sadist wrote:
I think you are conflating "man made" and lab leak.
Is there any evidence it was a man made virus? If a virus was found in the wild but through fuckups at the lab in handling it became more wide spread, would that not be different than it being man made? Man made has a more nefarious connotation.
I think its an important difference.
A wild virus getting loose at a lab is pretty plausible. A man made virus getting loose at a lab is possible but would need some pretty clear evidence correct?
Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically. Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab. New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful. Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed. This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO. Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally? "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof?
There’s no “proof” for natural origin either…
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I'm sorry my dude, but the lab leak theory is by far the most likely at this moment. It is not reasonable to pretend it isn't likely.
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Northern Ireland24512 Posts
It’s certainly important to know moving forwards. Obviously not something we want happening again.
As per the contemporary development of the situation, did it really matter? Not really. It’s not like the Chinese didn’t suffer a lot in the Pandemic, they weren’t hiding some secret cure or anything like that on account of possibly inculcating the thing
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On June 19 2023 12:50 Mohdoo wrote:
I'm sorry my dude, but the lab leak theory is by far the most likely at this moment. It is not reasonable to pretend it isn't likely.
The question isn't if it's more likely now with current information, the question is if it was likely enough 2 years ago to present it as fact.
Those are two very very different conversations.
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On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2023 18:26 BlackJack wrote:On June 18 2023 05:45 Sadist wrote:
I think you are conflating "man made" and lab leak.
Is there any evidence it was a man made virus? If a virus was found in the wild but through fuckups at the lab in handling it became more wide spread, would that not be different than it being man made? Man made has a more nefarious connotation.
I think its an important difference.
A wild virus getting loose at a lab is pretty plausible. A man made virus getting loose at a lab is possible but would need some pretty clear evidence correct?
Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically. Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab. New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful. Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed. This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO. Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally? "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either…
The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious.
Its entirely possible that this is a man made/modified Virus. I just think extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Also theres a lot of hedging in every article with "maybe" and "possibly" yet depending on what side of the aisle you are on its pronounced as absolute truth and accepted fact.
To my knowledge that has not happened yet.
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On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2023 18:26 BlackJack wrote:On June 18 2023 05:45 Sadist wrote:
I think you are conflating "man made" and lab leak.
Is there any evidence it was a man made virus? If a virus was found in the wild but through fuckups at the lab in handling it became more wide spread, would that not be different than it being man made? Man made has a more nefarious connotation.
I think its an important difference.
A wild virus getting loose at a lab is pretty plausible. A man made virus getting loose at a lab is possible but would need some pretty clear evidence correct?
Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically. Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab. New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful. Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed. This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO. Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally? "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious.
I don't think that should be the obvious default when a virus outbreak happens right next to a lab that works with this type of virus specifically. Especially if you know how some Chinese scientists tend to work...
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On June 20 2023 00:15 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2023 18:26 BlackJack wrote:On June 18 2023 05:45 Sadist wrote:
I think you are conflating "man made" and lab leak.
Is there any evidence it was a man made virus? If a virus was found in the wild but through fuckups at the lab in handling it became more wide spread, would that not be different than it being man made? Man made has a more nefarious connotation.
I think its an important difference.
A wild virus getting loose at a lab is pretty plausible. A man made virus getting loose at a lab is possible but would need some pretty clear evidence correct?
Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically. Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab. New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful. Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed. This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO. Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally? "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious. I don't think that should be the obvious default when a virus outbreak happens right next to a lab that works with this type of virus specifically. Especially if you know how some Chinese scientists tend to work...
And this is the attitude that leads to a rise of asian hate crimes if its broadcasted by the president of the united state's.
I mean the bolded do you really know how chinese scientists tend to work?
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On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2023 18:26 BlackJack wrote:On June 18 2023 05:45 Sadist wrote:
I think you are conflating "man made" and lab leak.
Is there any evidence it was a man made virus? If a virus was found in the wild but through fuckups at the lab in handling it became more wide spread, would that not be different than it being man made? Man made has a more nefarious connotation.
I think its an important difference.
A wild virus getting loose at a lab is pretty plausible. A man made virus getting loose at a lab is possible but would need some pretty clear evidence correct?
Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically. Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab. New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful. Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed. This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO. Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally? "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious. Its entirely possible that this is a man made/modified Virus. I just think extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Also theres a lot of hedging in every article with "maybe" and "possibly" yet depending on what side of the aisle you are on its pronounced as absolute truth and accepted fact. To my knowledge that has not happened yet.
Right that’s the default position. The lab leak theory, which was very much plausible, was told to us to be implausible by scientists who behind closed doors also believed it to be very plausible if not likely. Just like they told us masks were ineffective at the start of the pandemic before telling us they were lying because they wanted to preserve them for healthcare workers. I really really really don’t care if people want to believe these lies were done for noble reasons. It’s extremely concerning when such lies are uniformly adopted by the media and social media and everyone that doesn’t believe the lies and believes something else can be labeled as a crackpot conspiracy theorist. I think that’s really concerning. Some people think the noble lies are great. It’s a difference of opinion.
There’s no epidemic of people injecting bleach to cure COVID. Even the stories of people overdosing on horse paste en masse so that gunshot victims had to wait were fabricated. I’m not as concerned of this nonsense as you seem to be. I’m more concerned that there’s a group of people that are seemingly willing to believe anything as long as it makes them virtuous or gives them the eternal reward of “being on the ride side of history.”
A coronavirus escaping from a lab that studies coronaviruses in the same city the pandemic started? Not possible you anti-Asian conspiracy theorist! Men can get pregnant? Of course they can you transphobic bigot! Fewer police on the streets is supposed to stop crime and make us all safer? Of course, Black Lives Matter, stay woke!
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On June 20 2023 08:52 BlackJack wrote:
A coronavirus escaping from a lab that studies coronaviruses in the same city the pandemic started? Not possible you anti-Asian conspiracy theorist! Men can get pregnant? Of course they can you transphobic bigot! Fewer police on the streets is supposed to stop crime and make us all safer? Of course, Black Lives Matter, stay woke!
I'm not interested in jumping into the entire how-the-pandemic-started conversation - I've been simply reading the back-and-forths - but surely there's no reason to bring in all these irrelevant topics. This is the covid thread.
If at the time, back then, there wasn't sufficient evidence of a lab leak yet (which appears to be the case, unless there was a massive cover-up where the scientists already knew the origin for sure), and also if at the time, back then, the idea was being commandeered by bigots to push an anti-Asian agenda (which is definitely true), then it's reasonable for the experts to play it extra safe for the time being. If the eventual uncovering of all the facts leads the experts to conclude that a Chinese lab leak is a likely (or the most likely) point of origin for the covid pandemic, then that's fine, but surely you can understand how important it is to proceed with caution, especially when people were/are being persecuted for simply being Asian or Asian-American (as if they had anything to do with a possible lab leak).
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On June 20 2023 09:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2023 08:52 BlackJack wrote:
A coronavirus escaping from a lab that studies coronaviruses in the same city the pandemic started? Not possible you anti-Asian conspiracy theorist! Men can get pregnant? Of course they can you transphobic bigot! Fewer police on the streets is supposed to stop crime and make us all safer? Of course, Black Lives Matter, stay woke!
I'm not interested in jumping into the entire how-the-pandemic-started conversation - I've been simply reading the back-and-forths - but surely there's no reason to bring in all these irrelevant topics. This is the covid thread. If at the time, back then, there wasn't sufficient evidence of a lab leak yet (which appears to be the case, unless there was a massive cover-up where the scientists already knew the origin for sure), and also if at the time, back then, the idea was being commandeered by bigots to push an anti-Asian agenda (which is definitely true), then it's reasonable for the experts to play it extra safe for the time being. If the eventual uncovering of all the facts leads the experts to conclude that a Chinese lab leak is a likely (or the most likely) point of origin for the covid pandemic, then that's fine, but surely you can understand how important it is to proceed with caution, especially when people were/are being persecuted for simply being Asian or Asian-American (as if they had anything to do with a possible lab leak).
Yeah the whole thing worked out splendidly, didn’t it? The next pandemic we have we can all debate whether the experts are telling the truth or whether they are “playing it cautious” as you put it.
That’s what I don’t understand about these attempts to rationalize the lies and half-truths. What do you think this really does to public trust? Sure for the next pandemic you will be prepared to believe whatever you are told because you know that even if you are being lied to it will be done for good reasons and you are okay with that. But don’t you think there’s a lot of other people that are not okay with it and won’t buy in next time?
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On June 20 2023 10:02 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2023 09:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 20 2023 08:52 BlackJack wrote:
A coronavirus escaping from a lab that studies coronaviruses in the same city the pandemic started? Not possible you anti-Asian conspiracy theorist! Men can get pregnant? Of course they can you transphobic bigot! Fewer police on the streets is supposed to stop crime and make us all safer? Of course, Black Lives Matter, stay woke!
I'm not interested in jumping into the entire how-the-pandemic-started conversation - I've been simply reading the back-and-forths - but surely there's no reason to bring in all these irrelevant topics. This is the covid thread. If at the time, back then, there wasn't sufficient evidence of a lab leak yet (which appears to be the case, unless there was a massive cover-up where the scientists already knew the origin for sure), and also if at the time, back then, the idea was being commandeered by bigots to push an anti-Asian agenda (which is definitely true), then it's reasonable for the experts to play it extra safe for the time being. If the eventual uncovering of all the facts leads the experts to conclude that a Chinese lab leak is a likely (or the most likely) point of origin for the covid pandemic, then that's fine, but surely you can understand how important it is to proceed with caution, especially when people were/are being persecuted for simply being Asian or Asian-American (as if they had anything to do with a possible lab leak). Yeah the whole thing worked out splendidly, didn’t it? The next pandemic we have we can all debate whether the experts are telling the truth or whether they are “playing it cautious” as you put it. That’s what I don’t understand about these attempts to rationalize the lies and half-truths. What do you think this really does to public trust? Sure for the next pandemic you will be prepared to believe whatever you are told because you know that even if you are being lied to it will be done for good reasons and you are okay with that. But don’t you think there’s a lot of other people that are not okay with it and won’t buy in next time?
Lies? Half-truths? Not okay with "it"? What are you even talking about? You make it sound like the experts got together and said "We all know that the Chinese lab leak hypothesis is absolutely correct, but we're going to hide the truth from everyone so that Asians won't have their feelings hurt" as opposed to "We really aren't sure what the cause is right now, and maybe that'll come with time, but what we can prioritize is trying to figure out how serious this outbreak is going to be and what steps we can take to keep everyone as safe and healthy as possible".
It's one thing to observe that scientists and medical researchers are fallible when it comes to communicating with the general public, especially during a time when new data is being collected every single day and the best understanding of a global pandemic is being updated every single hour; it's an entirely different thing to fabricate a conspiracy just to threaten the loss of public trust in science and medicine with some crazy revisionism.
If the Chinese lab leak hypothesis turns out to be the most credible explanation for how the covid pandemic started, then I hope that additional safeguards will be put in place to help prevent such a thing from ever happening again. However, that is completely separate from the idea that people originally asserting the lab leak hypothesis before any evidence for that claim was gathered were justified in saying they knew it came from a lab, and it's also completely unjustified to say that the experts knew it all along and were purposely hiding it from us.
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On June 20 2023 06:26 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2023 00:15 justanothertownie wrote:On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2023 18:26 BlackJack wrote:On June 18 2023 05:45 Sadist wrote:
I think you are conflating "man made" and lab leak.
Is there any evidence it was a man made virus? If a virus was found in the wild but through fuckups at the lab in handling it became more wide spread, would that not be different than it being man made? Man made has a more nefarious connotation.
I think its an important difference.
A wild virus getting loose at a lab is pretty plausible. A man made virus getting loose at a lab is possible but would need some pretty clear evidence correct?
Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically. Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab. New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful. Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed. This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO. Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally? "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious. I don't think that should be the obvious default when a virus outbreak happens right next to a lab that works with this type of virus specifically. Especially if you know how some Chinese scientists tend to work... And this is the attitude that leads to a rise of asian hate crimes if its broadcasted by the president of the united state's. I mean the bolded do you really know how chinese scientists tend to work?
As a scientist who had to reproduce the work of others countless time I would generally make that claim, yes. I of course do not know the specific scientists of that virology institute and their work (I am a chemist) but in my personal experience when compared to other countries studies published in China always have a higher risk of being not reproduceable either due to being faulty or the authors just being frauds. One reason for this is that for them there is significant financial incentive to just publish anything/large quantities are the most important thing. Also, safety is generally not a very big concern here.
You can now tell me that the virologist in China are much more professional if you have any evidence/reason to think so but it would be hard to believe for me.
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On June 20 2023 11:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2023 10:02 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2023 09:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 20 2023 08:52 BlackJack wrote:
A coronavirus escaping from a lab that studies coronaviruses in the same city the pandemic started? Not possible you anti-Asian conspiracy theorist! Men can get pregnant? Of course they can you transphobic bigot! Fewer police on the streets is supposed to stop crime and make us all safer? Of course, Black Lives Matter, stay woke!
I'm not interested in jumping into the entire how-the-pandemic-started conversation - I've been simply reading the back-and-forths - but surely there's no reason to bring in all these irrelevant topics. This is the covid thread. If at the time, back then, there wasn't sufficient evidence of a lab leak yet (which appears to be the case, unless there was a massive cover-up where the scientists already knew the origin for sure), and also if at the time, back then, the idea was being commandeered by bigots to push an anti-Asian agenda (which is definitely true), then it's reasonable for the experts to play it extra safe for the time being. If the eventual uncovering of all the facts leads the experts to conclude that a Chinese lab leak is a likely (or the most likely) point of origin for the covid pandemic, then that's fine, but surely you can understand how important it is to proceed with caution, especially when people were/are being persecuted for simply being Asian or Asian-American (as if they had anything to do with a possible lab leak). Yeah the whole thing worked out splendidly, didn’t it? The next pandemic we have we can all debate whether the experts are telling the truth or whether they are “playing it cautious” as you put it. That’s what I don’t understand about these attempts to rationalize the lies and half-truths. What do you think this really does to public trust? Sure for the next pandemic you will be prepared to believe whatever you are told because you know that even if you are being lied to it will be done for good reasons and you are okay with that. But don’t you think there’s a lot of other people that are not okay with it and won’t buy in next time? Lies? Half-truths? Not okay with "it"? What are you even talking about?
Why does it so often feel like posting on this forum involves taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back. There’s no point in responding to the rest of your post if you can’t even agree on the premise that you were lied to so let me recap.
1) when your private emails show your group of scientists thinks lab escape is plausible but then you commission a paper in Nature that calls it not plausible you are lying. Especially if you go on to later say that you’ve always maintained lab leak was plausible. These are contradictory ideas. You can’t believe it to be plausible and then commission a paper that calls it not plausible.
2) telling us masks don’t work and then telling us they do work and the only reason you told us they don’t work is because you didn’t want to create a run on masks because healthcare workers needed them. It doesn’t matter if you were lying because you wanted to preserve n95s for hospitals, you’re still lying.
3) take a quote like this from Dr Fauci
When polls said only about half of all Americans would take a vaccine, I was saying herd immunity would take 70 to 75 percent. Then, when newer surveys said 60 percent or more would take it, I thought, “I can nudge this up a bit,” so I went to 80, 85.
This is a lie. If someone asks for your professional opinion on what % is required for herd immunity and you give an answer that is bullshit just because you think more people may be convinced to get vaccinated to hit your bullshit target it’s a lie.
If you can’t accept these as lies there’s no purpose continuing a discussion when we can’t even agree on the same reality. If you are willing to accept this reality then the follow up question is when the next pandemic comes and they tell us whether masks work and what numbers we need for herd immunity, why should anyone believe them?
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Northern Ireland24512 Posts
On June 20 2023 08:52 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2023 18:26 BlackJack wrote:On June 18 2023 05:45 Sadist wrote:
I think you are conflating "man made" and lab leak.
Is there any evidence it was a man made virus? If a virus was found in the wild but through fuckups at the lab in handling it became more wide spread, would that not be different than it being man made? Man made has a more nefarious connotation.
I think its an important difference.
A wild virus getting loose at a lab is pretty plausible. A man made virus getting loose at a lab is possible but would need some pretty clear evidence correct?
Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically. Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab. New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful. Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed. This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO. Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally? "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious. Its entirely possible that this is a man made/modified Virus. I just think extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Also theres a lot of hedging in every article with "maybe" and "possibly" yet depending on what side of the aisle you are on its pronounced as absolute truth and accepted fact. To my knowledge that has not happened yet. Right that’s the default position. The lab leak theory, which was very much plausible, was told to us to be implausible by scientists who behind closed doors also believed it to be very plausible if not likely. Just like they told us masks were ineffective at the start of the pandemic before telling us they were lying because they wanted to preserve them for healthcare workers. I really really really don’t care if people want to believe these lies were done for noble reasons. It’s extremely concerning when such lies are uniformly adopted by the media and social media and everyone that doesn’t believe the lies and believes something else can be labeled as a crackpot conspiracy theorist. I think that’s really concerning. Some people think the noble lies are great. It’s a difference of opinion. There’s no epidemic of people injecting bleach to cure COVID. Even the stories of people overdosing on horse paste en masse so that gunshot victims had to wait were fabricated. I’m not as concerned of this nonsense as you seem to be. I’m more concerned that there’s a group of people that are seemingly willing to believe anything as long as it makes them virtuous or gives them the eternal reward of “being on the ride side of history.” A coronavirus escaping from a lab that studies coronaviruses in the same city the pandemic started? Not possible you anti-Asian conspiracy theorist! Men can get pregnant? Of course they can you transphobic bigot! Fewer police on the streets is supposed to stop crime and make us all safer? Of course, Black Lives Matter, stay woke!
Many of these things are wildly different though.
Lying about mask effectiveness, yes that was a ‘noble lie’ and definitely a mistake re public trust.
Lab leak stuff, similarly although with some differences given it wasn’t a confirmed thing.
People injecting bleach or eating horse paste, the former I don’t recall actually being a media story, more an insult people would throw out on social media. The latter was an initially fabricated story that spread like wildfire as organisations didn’t do their due diligence in questioning the original story. So incompetence really. Stories that were only plausible in the first place and passed bullshit detectors because people were behaving in certain ways already. Doesn’t make it right mind.
Trans issues is a cultural reframing, and defund the policy is a policy prescription people advocate for and think would work, so they’re not really ‘lies’ as such.
Add to that a slew of genuine error, or incomplete understanding that got adjusted subsequently during the Pandemic that was not done with any kind of malice.
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On June 20 2023 17:15 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2023 11:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 20 2023 10:02 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2023 09:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 20 2023 08:52 BlackJack wrote:
A coronavirus escaping from a lab that studies coronaviruses in the same city the pandemic started? Not possible you anti-Asian conspiracy theorist! Men can get pregnant? Of course they can you transphobic bigot! Fewer police on the streets is supposed to stop crime and make us all safer? Of course, Black Lives Matter, stay woke!
I'm not interested in jumping into the entire how-the-pandemic-started conversation - I've been simply reading the back-and-forths - but surely there's no reason to bring in all these irrelevant topics. This is the covid thread. If at the time, back then, there wasn't sufficient evidence of a lab leak yet (which appears to be the case, unless there was a massive cover-up where the scientists already knew the origin for sure), and also if at the time, back then, the idea was being commandeered by bigots to push an anti-Asian agenda (which is definitely true), then it's reasonable for the experts to play it extra safe for the time being. If the eventual uncovering of all the facts leads the experts to conclude that a Chinese lab leak is a likely (or the most likely) point of origin for the covid pandemic, then that's fine, but surely you can understand how important it is to proceed with caution, especially when people were/are being persecuted for simply being Asian or Asian-American (as if they had anything to do with a possible lab leak). Yeah the whole thing worked out splendidly, didn’t it? The next pandemic we have we can all debate whether the experts are telling the truth or whether they are “playing it cautious” as you put it. That’s what I don’t understand about these attempts to rationalize the lies and half-truths. What do you think this really does to public trust? Sure for the next pandemic you will be prepared to believe whatever you are told because you know that even if you are being lied to it will be done for good reasons and you are okay with that. But don’t you think there’s a lot of other people that are not okay with it and won’t buy in next time? Lies? Half-truths? Not okay with "it"? What are you even talking about? Why does it so often feel like posting on this forum involves taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back. There’s no point in responding to the rest of your post if you can’t even agree on the premise that you were lied to so let me recap. 1) when your private emails show your group of scientists thinks lab escape is plausible but then you commission a paper in Nature that calls it not plausible you are lying. Especially if you go on to later say that you’ve always maintained lab leak was plausible. These are contradictory ideas. You can’t believe it to be plausible and then commission a paper that calls it not plausible. 2) telling us masks don’t work and then telling us they do work and the only reason you told us they don’t work is because you didn’t want to create a run on masks because healthcare workers needed them. It doesn’t matter if you were lying because you wanted to preserve n95s for hospitals, you’re still lying. 3) take a quote like this from Dr Fauci Show nested quote + When polls said only about half of all Americans would take a vaccine, I was saying herd immunity would take 70 to 75 percent. Then, when newer surveys said 60 percent or more would take it, I thought, “I can nudge this up a bit,” so I went to 80, 85. This is a lie. If someone asks for your professional opinion on what % is required for herd immunity and you give an answer that is bullshit just because you think more people may be convinced to get vaccinated to hit your bullshit target it’s a lie. If you can’t accept these as lies there’s no purpose continuing a discussion when we can’t even agree on the same reality. If you are willing to accept this reality then the follow up question is when the next pandemic comes and they tell us whether masks work and what numbers we need for herd immunity, why should anyone believe them?
My question of conspiracy and lies was in regards to the supposed certainty of a lab leak from day one - a new assertion you made - not one of lab leak possibility, mask efficacy, or herd immunity. I'm not the one asking you to bring up other, older topics; you're retreating to them when you realize you've overstepped with a new, separate position (motte and bailey).
Mixed messaging on masks, for example, has nothing to do with the claim that scientists knew the lab leak hypothesis was correct all along. If you think the scientists were wrong - or lied - about masks and herd immunity, it still doesn't logically follow that you should therefore conclude they had a secret conspiracy about something else. The idea that we shouldn't believe them about anything, or that we should just start accusing them of other things without evidence, isn't reasonable.
Anyways, I'm disengaging now. Back to simply reading the covid conversations for me. Have a good day.
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I never said there was any certainty in lab leak. Apparently we are onto the part where you retreat into making up words for me.
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On June 20 2023 15:22 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2023 06:26 Sermokala wrote:On June 20 2023 00:15 justanothertownie wrote:On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2023 18:26 BlackJack wrote:On June 18 2023 05:45 Sadist wrote:
I think you are conflating "man made" and lab leak.
Is there any evidence it was a man made virus? If a virus was found in the wild but through fuckups at the lab in handling it became more wide spread, would that not be different than it being man made? Man made has a more nefarious connotation.
I think its an important difference.
A wild virus getting loose at a lab is pretty plausible. A man made virus getting loose at a lab is possible but would need some pretty clear evidence correct?
Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically. Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab. New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful. Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed. This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO. Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally? "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious. I don't think that should be the obvious default when a virus outbreak happens right next to a lab that works with this type of virus specifically. Especially if you know how some Chinese scientists tend to work... And this is the attitude that leads to a rise of asian hate crimes if its broadcasted by the president of the united state's. I mean the bolded do you really know how chinese scientists tend to work? As a scientist who had to reproduce the work of others countless time I would generally make that claim, yes. I of course do not know the specific scientists of that virology institute and their work (I am a chemist) but in my personal experience when compared to other countries studies published in China always have a higher risk of being not reproduceable either due to being faulty or the authors just being frauds. One reason for this is that for them there is significant financial incentive to just publish anything/large quantities are the most important thing. Also, safety is generally not a very big concern here. You can now tell me that the virologist in China are much more professional if you have any evidence/reason to think so but it would be hard to believe for me.
Did you see how you felt you needed to justify your prejudice and try to hit out against the implication of what you were saying ? Thats the problem here, You don't provide context for what you say to people who don't understand where you're coming from and just latch onto the anti chinese part of what you said. That funnels down the line to the grifters like Trump who are trying to cast blame on the virus onto Asian people.
On June 21 2023 03:49 BlackJack wrote:
I never said there was any certainty in lab leak. Apparently we are onto the part where you retreat into making up words for me.
You've been ranting and raving about the truth of the lab leak being suppressed and censored for pages now. Now you are saying that you don't believe there is any certainty in it. Is your new stance that uncertain theories should be allowed to spread reguardless of the damage they cause?
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