|
Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.
Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On June 21 2023 04:01 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2023 15:22 justanothertownie wrote:On June 20 2023 06:26 Sermokala wrote:On June 20 2023 00:15 justanothertownie wrote:On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2023 18:26 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically.
Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab.
New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful. Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed. This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO. Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally? "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious. I don't think that should be the obvious default when a virus outbreak happens right next to a lab that works with this type of virus specifically. Especially if you know how some Chinese scientists tend to work... And this is the attitude that leads to a rise of asian hate crimes if its broadcasted by the president of the united state's. I mean the bolded do you really know how chinese scientists tend to work? As a scientist who had to reproduce the work of others countless time I would generally make that claim, yes. I of course do not know the specific scientists of that virology institute and their work (I am a chemist) but in my personal experience when compared to other countries studies published in China always have a higher risk of being not reproduceable either due to being faulty or the authors just being frauds. One reason for this is that for them there is significant financial incentive to just publish anything/large quantities are the most important thing. Also, safety is generally not a very big concern here. You can now tell me that the virologist in China are much more professional if you have any evidence/reason to think so but it would be hard to believe for me. Did you see how you felt you needed to justify your prejudice and try to hit out against the implication of what you were saying ? Thats the problem here, You don't provide context for what you say to people who don't understand where you're coming from and just latch onto the anti chinese part of what you said. That funnels down the line to the grifters like Trump who are trying to cast blame on the virus onto Asian people. Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 03:49 BlackJack wrote:
I never said there was any certainty in lab leak. Apparently we are onto the part where you retreat into making up words for me. You've been ranting and raving about the truth of the lab leak being suppressed and censored for pages now. Now you are saying that you don't believe there is any certainty in it. Is your new stance that uncertain theories should be allowed to spread reguardless of the damage they cause?
Only being allowed to talk about things there is certainty to is your beliefs, not mine. You can’t apply your belief that we shouldn’t talk about uncertain things to assume that I think there is certainty in lab leak because I think we should be allowed to talk about it.
Of course the real irony here is there is no certainty in natural origin either but you would have no issue with someone spreading this uncertain theory or even speaking of it as immutable fact. This glaring hypocrisy is lost on you, surely.
|
I'd like to point out, as someone who worked in academia a long time, when this all started and we knew the first people to get sick were in a city researching covid, everyone was super confident it was lab leak. Or at least all the friends/acquaintances I have involved in academia.
This stuff happens. It shouldn't, but it does. It is significantly less common in reputable national scientific communities. It happens much more in countries that are obsessed with catching up, which includes China of course. There are so many stories about horrendous lab safety/protocols in China that anyone with a long history in academia has a very easy time hearing "Oh, they research covid in Wuhan? lol, that is 100% what happened".
I'm not sure what the best way to convey the level of confidence folks have, but it is supported by soooo many incidents, and soooo much cultural consistency within China's deeply insecure scientific community.
And again, this stuff has happened in entirely reputable, world class labs. If you have 100,000 people running experiments, you're gonna have some non-zero number of mistakes. But most times when it has happened, it gets discovered early enough, or the contamination doesn't spread, or other things that prevent a huge disaster.
I want to be clear that while I am pointing out the fact that China's scientific community is insecure, poorly managed, unsafe, and dishonest, they also got incredibly unlucky by their incident involving a highly contagious airborne virus. There have been incidents in world class laboratories where contamination has occurred and we just got really lucky. China got unlucky, but they were significantly more likely to get unlucky because their methods and personnel are so much worse.
If the CDC was researching covid and covid broke out in the same city as CDC headquarters, all the same people would have expressed a great deal of confidence it was a lab leak.
We have direct evidence Fauci agreed lab leak was likely, but was worried about causing harm to China's scientific community long-term. This was a weird situation, because the concern of "racism" was so huge that most people were just shamed into shutting up and pretending this situation wasn't incredibly obvious.
It was super obvious it was a lab leak the moment we learned Wuhan researches covid. It is extremely dishonest for people to hide behind "but we didn't have evidence!!!!" when we all know we would never get that evidence, and it is just so incredibly likely.
|
On June 21 2023 04:01 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2023 15:22 justanothertownie wrote:On June 20 2023 06:26 Sermokala wrote:On June 20 2023 00:15 justanothertownie wrote:On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2023 18:26 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically.
Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab.
New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful. Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed. This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO. Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally? "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious. I don't think that should be the obvious default when a virus outbreak happens right next to a lab that works with this type of virus specifically. Especially if you know how some Chinese scientists tend to work... And this is the attitude that leads to a rise of asian hate crimes if its broadcasted by the president of the united state's. I mean the bolded do you really know how chinese scientists tend to work? As a scientist who had to reproduce the work of others countless time I would generally make that claim, yes. I of course do not know the specific scientists of that virology institute and their work (I am a chemist) but in my personal experience when compared to other countries studies published in China always have a higher risk of being not reproduceable either due to being faulty or the authors just being frauds. One reason for this is that for them there is significant financial incentive to just publish anything/large quantities are the most important thing. Also, safety is generally not a very big concern here. You can now tell me that the virologist in China are much more professional if you have any evidence/reason to think so but it would be hard to believe for me. Did you see how you felt you needed to justify your prejudice and try to hit out against the implication of what you were saying ? Thats the problem here, You don't provide context for what you say to people who don't understand where you're coming from and just latch onto the anti chinese part of what you said. That funnels down the line to the grifters like Trump who are trying to cast blame on the virus onto Asian people. Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 03:49 BlackJack wrote:
I never said there was any certainty in lab leak. Apparently we are onto the part where you retreat into making up words for me. You've been ranting and raving about the truth of the lab leak being suppressed and censored for pages now. Now you are saying that you don't believe there is any certainty in it. Is your new stance that uncertain theories should be allowed to spread reguardless of the damage they cause?
bolded: No he didnt, he literally just answered your question.
italic - you are literally only one who did that...
As for whether or not it was censored, it seems that some believe that presenting something as: "experts say that it is natural, there is also bunch of flat earthers, conspiracy theorist, nazi and orange devil himself who say it may came from a lab" is a discussion. Also censoring something on social media is irrelevant... may want to compare social media user numbers vs MSM followers numbers.
On June 17 2023 05:26 BlackJack wrote:We've known the vaccines have been piss poor at preventing infection ever since Omicron emerged onto the scene. By "we" I should say scientists and society in general. It took another 12 months for this forum to catch on fighting tooth and nail. Also nobody really cares that the lab leak theory was buried. Killing potentially true stories that don't fit the desired narrative is by design, not a defect.
So you didnt look at the study and the table 2 in it  . Piss poor would be actually massive and desired improvement.
|
|
|
On June 21 2023 07:05 JimmiC wrote:
But what is the big take away, that fact checkers were too hamfisted and should have said it is possible it was an accidental lab leak and only banned the stuff about it being proven it was and all the stuff that said it was a bio weapon, or on purpose?
It is not like the scientific community stopped looking into it. It is not like anyone with a computer didn't hear about the theory. China was not letting people investigate as it was and also in basically every emergency especially a pandemic the number 1 priority is saving as many lives as possible and then figuring out the cause and how to prevent future emergency pandemics after.
I think it would be mostly a good thing if it came from a lab leak as that seems more preventable than it happening in nature especially as we get more and more humans.
Like, if I here "suppression of the truth" it makes me think that some one knew the truth and was keeping a bunch of lay people from "theorizing" (making up shit and saying it with authority for the most part) on social media is that bad of thing. But then again I do not think social media is a benefit to society.
Was anyone blocked from researching this theory? If so how are they doing it now? I get China was not letting investigators go, but there was nothing "the west" or "Main Stream Media" could do about that. Are we certain that if their was way more articles and facebook meme's at the height of the pandemic would have helped at all? Would have China given even less support to the world in dealing with it? Is the worst offense that Jon Stewart was made fun of?
Like it is pretty interesting that they are continuing to do the research and learn about it to make some changes so it does not happen again. But I'm missing the proof of any conspiracy. I do see that apparently lots of people were possibly or even likely wrong that 2 years we thought were right. But that happens all the time.
What evidence was hidden from investigators? Why are "they" letting it all come out now. My take is because there was no conspiracy to begin with.
And @ razyda it is not preventing infections that people have thought the vaccine was good at since well before Omni, pretty sure it was known before delta it was only good for that for an extremally shorty time, despite BJ's revisionist history. It was preventing the negative outcomes of the virus. Time for you to catch up.
Bolded: I would say that there is quite a difference between not preventing and facilitating...
As for preventing negative outcome of the virus:
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Pages/weekly-reports-archive.aspx
Link to NSW archived weekly reports. Sadly it must be from archives, because report linked here came with this note:
"Vaccination status of cases admitted to hospital, admitted to ICU and those who die will no longer be
reported. These data were included from 2021 when vaccines were first rolled out to monitor trends in the
relationship between vaccination and outcomes. With most of the population having received at least two
doses of vaccine and there being differences in timings of booster dosing across different age groups, the
trends between vaccines and outcomes cannot be interpreted using these data. "
Week ending 31st December:
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/weekly-covid-overview-20221231.pdf
Page 4:
(hospital) - (ICU) - (Deaths)
Four or more doses 810 - 58 - 53
Three doses 377 - 29 - 19
Two doses 218 - 17 - 9
One dose 10 - 1 - 1
No dose 0 - 0 - 6
It seems like none of the unvaccinated died in hospital.
This numbers look similar for quite few weeks back.
|
|
|
On June 21 2023 09:58 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 08:08 Razyda wrote:On June 21 2023 07:05 JimmiC wrote:
But what is the big take away, that fact checkers were too hamfisted and should have said it is possible it was an accidental lab leak and only banned the stuff about it being proven it was and all the stuff that said it was a bio weapon, or on purpose?
It is not like the scientific community stopped looking into it. It is not like anyone with a computer didn't hear about the theory. China was not letting people investigate as it was and also in basically every emergency especially a pandemic the number 1 priority is saving as many lives as possible and then figuring out the cause and how to prevent future emergency pandemics after.
I think it would be mostly a good thing if it came from a lab leak as that seems more preventable than it happening in nature especially as we get more and more humans.
Like, if I here "suppression of the truth" it makes me think that some one knew the truth and was keeping a bunch of lay people from "theorizing" (making up shit and saying it with authority for the most part) on social media is that bad of thing. But then again I do not think social media is a benefit to society.
Was anyone blocked from researching this theory? If so how are they doing it now? I get China was not letting investigators go, but there was nothing "the west" or "Main Stream Media" could do about that. Are we certain that if their was way more articles and facebook meme's at the height of the pandemic would have helped at all? Would have China given even less support to the world in dealing with it? Is the worst offense that Jon Stewart was made fun of?
Like it is pretty interesting that they are continuing to do the research and learn about it to make some changes so it does not happen again. But I'm missing the proof of any conspiracy. I do see that apparently lots of people were possibly or even likely wrong that 2 years we thought were right. But that happens all the time.
What evidence was hidden from investigators? Why are "they" letting it all come out now. My take is because there was no conspiracy to begin with.
And @ razyda it is not preventing infections that people have thought the vaccine was good at since well before Omni, pretty sure it was known before delta it was only good for that for an extremally shorty time, despite BJ's revisionist history. It was preventing the negative outcomes of the virus. Time for you to catch up. Bolded: I would say that there is quite a difference between not preventing and facilitating... As for preventing negative outcome of the virus: https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Pages/weekly-reports-archive.aspxLink to NSW archived weekly reports. Sadly it must be from archives, because report linked here came with this note: "Vaccination status of cases admitted to hospital, admitted to ICU and those who die will no longer be reported. These data were included from 2021 when vaccines were first rolled out to monitor trends in the relationship between vaccination and outcomes. With most of the population having received at least two doses of vaccine and there being differences in timings of booster dosing across different age groups, the trends between vaccines and outcomes cannot be interpreted using these data. " Week ending 31st December: https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/weekly-covid-overview-20221231.pdfPage 4: (hospital) - (ICU) - (Deaths) Four or more doses 810 - 58 - 53 Three doses 377 - 29 - 19 Two doses 218 - 17 - 9 One dose 10 - 1 - 1 No dose 0 - 0 - 6 It seems like none of the unvaccinated died in hospital. This numbers look similar for quite few weeks back. You can’t look at the raw numbers you need to put them into proper context. How many people in the general public are vac vs unvaccinated, what are their age groups. Is it good that they released raw numbers for so long transparently (well not in Florida but in lots of places), yes I think it is. Will lots of lay people use them to come to false conclusions, clearly yes. Will grifters use them to sell products and clicks, certainly yes. It is not that transparency has no down side. But this is the real problem. Because some how because it mug he have been a lab leak vaccination does not work. And I’m not really interested in having that discussion anymore. It is just crazy to me that if someone had a head ache and the scan came back cancer they would trust the doctor to cut open their head, cut the tumour out of their brain, get sprayed with radiation and stuck with poison because they trust the doctor. Or get poison injected in their face to look younger. Or get trt, or steroids from some dealer. Or any number of other examples but they won’t trust their doctor on this? All the other examples the people you’re taking the advice from are making more off the visit than the doctor that prescribed it or nurse that injected you.
Bolded: Raw numbers are 0s for hospital and ICU For deaths - unvaxed are around 10% (around that time)
https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-01/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-update-06-january-2023.pdf
Italic: No idea what lab leak has to do with vaccine working? Can you elaborate?
|
On June 21 2023 06:22 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 04:01 Sermokala wrote:On June 20 2023 15:22 justanothertownie wrote:On June 20 2023 06:26 Sermokala wrote:On June 20 2023 00:15 justanothertownie wrote:On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:
[quote]
New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.
Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful.
Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed.
This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO.
Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally?
"Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious. I don't think that should be the obvious default when a virus outbreak happens right next to a lab that works with this type of virus specifically. Especially if you know how some Chinese scientists tend to work... And this is the attitude that leads to a rise of asian hate crimes if its broadcasted by the president of the united state's. I mean the bolded do you really know how chinese scientists tend to work? As a scientist who had to reproduce the work of others countless time I would generally make that claim, yes. I of course do not know the specific scientists of that virology institute and their work (I am a chemist) but in my personal experience when compared to other countries studies published in China always have a higher risk of being not reproduceable either due to being faulty or the authors just being frauds. One reason for this is that for them there is significant financial incentive to just publish anything/large quantities are the most important thing. Also, safety is generally not a very big concern here. You can now tell me that the virologist in China are much more professional if you have any evidence/reason to think so but it would be hard to believe for me. Did you see how you felt you needed to justify your prejudice and try to hit out against the implication of what you were saying ? Thats the problem here, You don't provide context for what you say to people who don't understand where you're coming from and just latch onto the anti chinese part of what you said. That funnels down the line to the grifters like Trump who are trying to cast blame on the virus onto Asian people. On June 21 2023 03:49 BlackJack wrote:
I never said there was any certainty in lab leak. Apparently we are onto the part where you retreat into making up words for me. You've been ranting and raving about the truth of the lab leak being suppressed and censored for pages now. Now you are saying that you don't believe there is any certainty in it. Is your new stance that uncertain theories should be allowed to spread reguardless of the damage they cause? Only being allowed to talk about things there is certainty to is your beliefs, not mine. You can’t apply your belief that we shouldn’t talk about uncertain things to assume that I think there is certainty in lab leak because I think we should be allowed to talk about it. Of course the real irony here is there is no certainty in natural origin either but you would have no issue with someone spreading this uncertain theory or even speaking of it as immutable fact. This glaring hypocrisy is lost on you, surely.
Do you understand what context is anyway? No one is telling you you have to have certinity on what you talk about. People are telling you you have to have responsibility for the consequences and outcomes of your actions. No one is saying they have certainty in natural origin here either.
My point is that you've been going on and on about the truth being suppressed and how everyone is so anti truth only to find out you don't even have confidence lab leak is the truth. The hipocracy is you somehow coming around to a "you can't apply your beliefs on me but you must accept my beliefs as fact" argument. Do you hold yourself to a different standard than you do to people you disagree with?
|
On June 21 2023 06:52 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 04:01 Sermokala wrote:On June 20 2023 15:22 justanothertownie wrote:On June 20 2023 06:26 Sermokala wrote:On June 20 2023 00:15 justanothertownie wrote:On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:
[quote]
New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.
Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful.
Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed.
This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO.
Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally?
"Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious. I don't think that should be the obvious default when a virus outbreak happens right next to a lab that works with this type of virus specifically. Especially if you know how some Chinese scientists tend to work... And this is the attitude that leads to a rise of asian hate crimes if its broadcasted by the president of the united state's. I mean the bolded do you really know how chinese scientists tend to work? As a scientist who had to reproduce the work of others countless time I would generally make that claim, yes. I of course do not know the specific scientists of that virology institute and their work (I am a chemist) but in my personal experience when compared to other countries studies published in China always have a higher risk of being not reproduceable either due to being faulty or the authors just being frauds. One reason for this is that for them there is significant financial incentive to just publish anything/large quantities are the most important thing. Also, safety is generally not a very big concern here. You can now tell me that the virologist in China are much more professional if you have any evidence/reason to think so but it would be hard to believe for me. Did you see how you felt you needed to justify your prejudice and try to hit out against the implication of what you were saying ? Thats the problem here, You don't provide context for what you say to people who don't understand where you're coming from and just latch onto the anti chinese part of what you said. That funnels down the line to the grifters like Trump who are trying to cast blame on the virus onto Asian people. On June 21 2023 03:49 BlackJack wrote:
I never said there was any certainty in lab leak. Apparently we are onto the part where you retreat into making up words for me. You've been ranting and raving about the truth of the lab leak being suppressed and censored for pages now. Now you are saying that you don't believe there is any certainty in it. Is your new stance that uncertain theories should be allowed to spread reguardless of the damage they cause? bolded: No he didnt, he literally just answered your question. italic - you are literally only one who did that... As for whether or not it was censored, it seems that some believe that presenting something as: "experts say that it is natural, there is also bunch of flat earthers, conspiracy theorist, nazi and orange devil himself who say it may came from a lab" is a discussion. Also censoring something on social media is irrelevant... may want to compare social media user numbers vs MSM followers numbers. Show nested quote +On June 17 2023 05:26 BlackJack wrote:We've known the vaccines have been piss poor at preventing infection ever since Omicron emerged onto the scene. By "we" I should say scientists and society in general. It took another 12 months for this forum to catch on fighting tooth and nail. Also nobody really cares that the lab leak theory was buried. Killing potentially true stories that don't fit the desired narrative is by design, not a defect. So you didnt look at the study and the table 2 in it . Piss poor would be actually massive and desired improvement.
If you read the post above that quote you will see you are wrong. He's the one who made a "if you know about Chinese scientists then you know they did this" argument without context to him saying this or qualifying it with it being in his experience. His second post is the appropriate one his first one isn't, I was asking if he understood the difference.
|
|
|
On June 20 2023 17:27 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2023 08:52 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 05:55 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2023 18:26 BlackJack wrote:On June 18 2023 05:45 Sadist wrote:
I think you are conflating "man made" and lab leak.
Is there any evidence it was a man made virus? If a virus was found in the wild but through fuckups at the lab in handling it became more wide spread, would that not be different than it being man made? Man made has a more nefarious connotation.
I think its an important difference.
A wild virus getting loose at a lab is pretty plausible. A man made virus getting loose at a lab is possible but would need some pretty clear evidence correct?
Why do you think Facebook had to change their policies and all these fact checking websites have to redact their fact checks? Do you think it's because Facebook was suppressing stories about COVID being a man-made bioweapon unleashed to destroy the world and now they want you to be able to discuss that freely? We have think about it logically. Also you don't even have to play a guessing game. I already linked a NYPost article that was suppressed by Facebook as False information for suggesting that COVID may have leaked from the lab. New York magazine’s latest cover story, “The Lab-Leak Hypothesis,” concludes that COVID-19 is a human-engineered virus that escaped from a Wuhan lab — the very same theory that moved Facebook to suppress a Post opinion piece for weeks last year.Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful. Its extremely frustrating having this discussion with some of you. There is no recognition that some of these people operate in bad faith and you cant fact check every little thing so judgement calls need to be made. Should facebook suppress articles suggesting bleach be injested to kill covid? The answer is obviously yes. So we agree on supressing things its just the nuance on what should be promoted or supressed. This discussion is stupid. We are rehashing something that is not important and WE STILL CANNOT GET PAST HALF TRUTHS AND INNUENDO. Where is the evidence it is a man made virus? Where is the evidence it was "leaked" purposefully or accidentally? "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious. Its entirely possible that this is a man made/modified Virus. I just think extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Also theres a lot of hedging in every article with "maybe" and "possibly" yet depending on what side of the aisle you are on its pronounced as absolute truth and accepted fact. To my knowledge that has not happened yet. Right that’s the default position. The lab leak theory, which was very much plausible, was told to us to be implausible by scientists who behind closed doors also believed it to be very plausible if not likely. Just like they told us masks were ineffective at the start of the pandemic before telling us they were lying because they wanted to preserve them for healthcare workers. I really really really don’t care if people want to believe these lies were done for noble reasons. It’s extremely concerning when such lies are uniformly adopted by the media and social media and everyone that doesn’t believe the lies and believes something else can be labeled as a crackpot conspiracy theorist. I think that’s really concerning. Some people think the noble lies are great. It’s a difference of opinion. There’s no epidemic of people injecting bleach to cure COVID. Even the stories of people overdosing on horse paste en masse so that gunshot victims had to wait were fabricated. I’m not as concerned of this nonsense as you seem to be. I’m more concerned that there’s a group of people that are seemingly willing to believe anything as long as it makes them virtuous or gives them the eternal reward of “being on the ride side of history.” A coronavirus escaping from a lab that studies coronaviruses in the same city the pandemic started? Not possible you anti-Asian conspiracy theorist! Men can get pregnant? Of course they can you transphobic bigot! Fewer police on the streets is supposed to stop crime and make us all safer? Of course, Black Lives Matter, stay woke! Many of these things are wildly different though. Lying about mask effectiveness, yes that was a ‘noble lie’ and definitely a mistake re public trust. Lab leak stuff, similarly although with some differences given it wasn’t a confirmed thing. People injecting bleach or eating horse paste, the former I don’t recall actually being a media story, more an insult people would throw out on social media. The latter was an initially fabricated story that spread like wildfire as organisations didn’t do their due diligence in questioning the original story. So incompetence really. Stories that were only plausible in the first place and passed bullshit detectors because people were behaving in certain ways already. Doesn’t make it right mind. Trans issues is a cultural reframing, and defund the policy is a policy prescription people advocate for and think would work, so they’re not really ‘lies’ as such. Add to that a slew of genuine error, or incomplete understanding that got adjusted subsequently during the Pandemic that was not done with any kind of malice.
Since you have the objectivity to acknowledge we did do those things we can move onto the argument of whether we should have done those things. Because certainly some people think the ends justify the means and if lying about lab leak being plausible or masks being effective achieved the goals of reducing Asian hate or preserving masks for hospitals then maybe it was a good idea. For example here are what I see are the two biggest outcomes of trying to set the narrative that only natural origin was plausible
1) most people that believe in lab leak will still believe in lab leak and they will retreat to the corners of the internet not reached by COVID misinformation policies of big tech and propagate their ideas in echo chambers
2) lab leak turns out to be true and the whole thing blows up in their faces and a huge blow is dealt to public trust in healthcare experts
I see this as a lose-lose situation. The really crazy people are not going to be convinced in scenario 1 and those are the people that would do violence over something like this. Even your best case scenario is not great and your worst case scenario is utter shit.
Btw this is not an isolated case. It’s almost become the norm to label Republicans as conspiracy theorists over things that are very plausible.
For example here’s a TikTok I saw recently that is a mashup of the mainstream media calling Republicans conspiracy theorists over saying Democrats want to “take away their gas stoves” and then ends with news of NY/Cali passing legislation to ban gas stoves. It’s why it’s become a meme to say the difference between a conspiracy and the truth is about 6 months. Then they sit there and wonder why nobody trusts them anymore. 
https://www.tiktok.com/@1973patriot/video/7229757635233434922
|
Leave it to Blackjack to pretend like he doesn't understand the difference between 'taking away gas stoves' and 'banning gas stoves from being installed in buildings built from 2026 onwards'.
|
On June 21 2023 16:40 Mikau wrote:
Leave it to Blackjack to pretend like he doesn't understand the difference between 'taking away gas stoves' and 'banning gas stoves from being installed in buildings built from 2026 onwards'.
What do you think happens to gas stoves that people own if there is a ban on gas stoves in new buildings? Do you think there is a lot of incentive for companies to continue to produce gas stoves? Do you think it might get harder and harder to get replacement parts to service gas stoves? Do you think it will get harder to find service technicians with the expertise to service gas stoves? Do you know the average lifespan of kitchen appliances is < 15 years?
Also the legitimate gripe from conservatives was that Dems were going to ban gas stoves, not that jackbooted thugs from the government were going to kick in their door and rip their gas stoves from their kitchens. That's the spin that was put on it and that you obviously bought into.
|
On June 21 2023 11:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 10:07 Razyda wrote:On June 21 2023 09:58 JimmiC wrote:On June 21 2023 08:08 Razyda wrote:On June 21 2023 07:05 JimmiC wrote:
But what is the big take away, that fact checkers were too hamfisted and should have said it is possible it was an accidental lab leak and only banned the stuff about it being proven it was and all the stuff that said it was a bio weapon, or on purpose?
It is not like the scientific community stopped looking into it. It is not like anyone with a computer didn't hear about the theory. China was not letting people investigate as it was and also in basically every emergency especially a pandemic the number 1 priority is saving as many lives as possible and then figuring out the cause and how to prevent future emergency pandemics after.
I think it would be mostly a good thing if it came from a lab leak as that seems more preventable than it happening in nature especially as we get more and more humans.
Like, if I here "suppression of the truth" it makes me think that some one knew the truth and was keeping a bunch of lay people from "theorizing" (making up shit and saying it with authority for the most part) on social media is that bad of thing. But then again I do not think social media is a benefit to society.
Was anyone blocked from researching this theory? If so how are they doing it now? I get China was not letting investigators go, but there was nothing "the west" or "Main Stream Media" could do about that. Are we certain that if their was way more articles and facebook meme's at the height of the pandemic would have helped at all? Would have China given even less support to the world in dealing with it? Is the worst offense that Jon Stewart was made fun of?
Like it is pretty interesting that they are continuing to do the research and learn about it to make some changes so it does not happen again. But I'm missing the proof of any conspiracy. I do see that apparently lots of people were possibly or even likely wrong that 2 years we thought were right. But that happens all the time.
What evidence was hidden from investigators? Why are "they" letting it all come out now. My take is because there was no conspiracy to begin with.
And @ razyda it is not preventing infections that people have thought the vaccine was good at since well before Omni, pretty sure it was known before delta it was only good for that for an extremally shorty time, despite BJ's revisionist history. It was preventing the negative outcomes of the virus. Time for you to catch up. Bolded: I would say that there is quite a difference between not preventing and facilitating... As for preventing negative outcome of the virus: https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Pages/weekly-reports-archive.aspxLink to NSW archived weekly reports. Sadly it must be from archives, because report linked here came with this note: "Vaccination status of cases admitted to hospital, admitted to ICU and those who die will no longer be reported. These data were included from 2021 when vaccines were first rolled out to monitor trends in the relationship between vaccination and outcomes. With most of the population having received at least two doses of vaccine and there being differences in timings of booster dosing across different age groups, the trends between vaccines and outcomes cannot be interpreted using these data. " Week ending 31st December: https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/weekly-covid-overview-20221231.pdfPage 4: (hospital) - (ICU) - (Deaths) Four or more doses 810 - 58 - 53 Three doses 377 - 29 - 19 Two doses 218 - 17 - 9 One dose 10 - 1 - 1 No dose 0 - 0 - 6 It seems like none of the unvaccinated died in hospital. This numbers look similar for quite few weeks back. You can’t look at the raw numbers you need to put them into proper context. How many people in the general public are vac vs unvaccinated, what are their age groups. Is it good that they released raw numbers for so long transparently (well not in Florida but in lots of places), yes I think it is. Will lots of lay people use them to come to false conclusions, clearly yes. Will grifters use them to sell products and clicks, certainly yes. It is not that transparency has no down side. But this is the real problem. Because some how because it mug he have been a lab leak vaccination does not work. And I’m not really interested in having that discussion anymore. It is just crazy to me that if someone had a head ache and the scan came back cancer they would trust the doctor to cut open their head, cut the tumour out of their brain, get sprayed with radiation and stuck with poison because they trust the doctor. Or get poison injected in their face to look younger. Or get trt, or steroids from some dealer. Or any number of other examples but they won’t trust their doctor on this? All the other examples the people you’re taking the advice from are making more off the visit than the doctor that prescribed it or nurse that injected you. Bolded: Raw numbers are 0s for hospital and ICU For deaths - unvaxed are around 10% (around that time) https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-01/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-update-06-january-2023.pdfItalic: No idea what lab leak has to do with vaccine working? Can you elaborate? It does not mean what you think it does, if it did it would be massive news.
Wait, is your point here really: "It wasnt on tele so it didnt happened"???
|
For example here’s a TikTok I saw recently that is a mashup of the mainstream media calling Republicans conspiracy theorists over saying Democrats want to “take away their gas stoves” and then ends with news of NY/Cali passing legislation to ban gas stoves. It’s why it’s become a meme to say the difference between a conspiracy and the truth is about 6 months. Then they sit there and wonder why nobody trusts them anymore.
Actually the situation in Germany is even crazier, they're banning new gas and oil boilers from 2024.
It's all about the United Nations sustainable development goals.
Not sure how CNN and the rest of the MSM can call it a conspiracy theory, fact is if people want net zero or even a 40% carbon reduction by 2030 or whatever they're going to have to make a few cutbacks.And get used to higher prices for energy, travel and everything else.
This isn't really related to covid beyond pointing out how useless the MSM has become though so i won't say any more about it here.
|
On June 21 2023 18:38 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 11:00 JimmiC wrote:On June 21 2023 10:07 Razyda wrote:On June 21 2023 09:58 JimmiC wrote:On June 21 2023 08:08 Razyda wrote:On June 21 2023 07:05 JimmiC wrote:
But what is the big take away, that fact checkers were too hamfisted and should have said it is possible it was an accidental lab leak and only banned the stuff about it being proven it was and all the stuff that said it was a bio weapon, or on purpose?
It is not like the scientific community stopped looking into it. It is not like anyone with a computer didn't hear about the theory. China was not letting people investigate as it was and also in basically every emergency especially a pandemic the number 1 priority is saving as many lives as possible and then figuring out the cause and how to prevent future emergency pandemics after.
I think it would be mostly a good thing if it came from a lab leak as that seems more preventable than it happening in nature especially as we get more and more humans.
Like, if I here "suppression of the truth" it makes me think that some one knew the truth and was keeping a bunch of lay people from "theorizing" (making up shit and saying it with authority for the most part) on social media is that bad of thing. But then again I do not think social media is a benefit to society.
Was anyone blocked from researching this theory? If so how are they doing it now? I get China was not letting investigators go, but there was nothing "the west" or "Main Stream Media" could do about that. Are we certain that if their was way more articles and facebook meme's at the height of the pandemic would have helped at all? Would have China given even less support to the world in dealing with it? Is the worst offense that Jon Stewart was made fun of?
Like it is pretty interesting that they are continuing to do the research and learn about it to make some changes so it does not happen again. But I'm missing the proof of any conspiracy. I do see that apparently lots of people were possibly or even likely wrong that 2 years we thought were right. But that happens all the time.
What evidence was hidden from investigators? Why are "they" letting it all come out now. My take is because there was no conspiracy to begin with.
And @ razyda it is not preventing infections that people have thought the vaccine was good at since well before Omni, pretty sure it was known before delta it was only good for that for an extremally shorty time, despite BJ's revisionist history. It was preventing the negative outcomes of the virus. Time for you to catch up. Bolded: I would say that there is quite a difference between not preventing and facilitating... As for preventing negative outcome of the virus: https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Pages/weekly-reports-archive.aspxLink to NSW archived weekly reports. Sadly it must be from archives, because report linked here came with this note: "Vaccination status of cases admitted to hospital, admitted to ICU and those who die will no longer be reported. These data were included from 2021 when vaccines were first rolled out to monitor trends in the relationship between vaccination and outcomes. With most of the population having received at least two doses of vaccine and there being differences in timings of booster dosing across different age groups, the trends between vaccines and outcomes cannot be interpreted using these data. " Week ending 31st December: https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/weekly-covid-overview-20221231.pdfPage 4: (hospital) - (ICU) - (Deaths) Four or more doses 810 - 58 - 53 Three doses 377 - 29 - 19 Two doses 218 - 17 - 9 One dose 10 - 1 - 1 No dose 0 - 0 - 6 It seems like none of the unvaccinated died in hospital. This numbers look similar for quite few weeks back. You can’t look at the raw numbers you need to put them into proper context. How many people in the general public are vac vs unvaccinated, what are their age groups. Is it good that they released raw numbers for so long transparently (well not in Florida but in lots of places), yes I think it is. Will lots of lay people use them to come to false conclusions, clearly yes. Will grifters use them to sell products and clicks, certainly yes. It is not that transparency has no down side. But this is the real problem. Because some how because it mug he have been a lab leak vaccination does not work. And I’m not really interested in having that discussion anymore. It is just crazy to me that if someone had a head ache and the scan came back cancer they would trust the doctor to cut open their head, cut the tumour out of their brain, get sprayed with radiation and stuck with poison because they trust the doctor. Or get poison injected in their face to look younger. Or get trt, or steroids from some dealer. Or any number of other examples but they won’t trust their doctor on this? All the other examples the people you’re taking the advice from are making more off the visit than the doctor that prescribed it or nurse that injected you. Bolded: Raw numbers are 0s for hospital and ICU For deaths - unvaxed are around 10% (around that time) https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-01/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-update-06-january-2023.pdfItalic: No idea what lab leak has to do with vaccine working? Can you elaborate? It does not mean what you think it does, if it did it would be massive news. Wait, is your point here really: "It wasnt on tele so it didnt happened"???
His point is that you're fundamentally misunderstanding what those statistics mean.
|
On June 21 2023 17:31 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 16:40 Mikau wrote:
Leave it to Blackjack to pretend like he doesn't understand the difference between 'taking away gas stoves' and 'banning gas stoves from being installed in buildings built from 2026 onwards'.
What do you think happens to gas stoves that people own if there is a ban on gas stoves in new buildings? Do you think there is a lot of incentive for companies to continue to produce gas stoves? Do you think it might get harder and harder to get replacement parts to service gas stoves? Do you think it will get harder to find service technicians with the expertise to service gas stoves? Do you know the average lifespan of kitchen appliances is < 15 years? Also the legitimate gripe from conservatives was that Dems were going to ban gas stoves, not that jackbooted thugs from the government were going to kick in their door and rip their gas stoves from their kitchens. That's the spin that was put on it and that you obviously bought into.
People need to learn what Carbon Neutral means.
Unless there is a way to capture Carbon, there will be no gas stoves, or gas appliances, including furnaces, by 2050.
|
Northern Ireland23317 Posts
A conspiracy theory can be bolted on to a real phenomenon.
To take one example, is there a clear direction of travel towards physical cash being a rarity, or perhaps one day being non-existent? Absolutely, hard to argue with that.
Can one recognise certain vested interests, or problems in various use cases in doing this? Absolutely, sure
On the flipside can you take this as evidence that a cabal featuring Bill Gates, Klaus Schwab and Steve Buscemi amongst others want to be able to monitor and limit how you spend money so we don’t own things anymore and ultimately we’ll end up eating bugs? Also yes
One is critically evaluating an ongoing development and potential upcoming pitfalls, one is raving conspiratorial nonsense.
As to this gas stove regulation and whatnot, hey it’s not a story I’m going to say I’m that familiar with, can’t really comment on the wisdom or lack thereof. I am going to go out on a limb and assume any comment thread that’s open on this on social media or what have you will have a ton of the latter interspersed with more grounded critique.
If more reasonable skeptics put as much energy into disavowing fringe conspiratorial bollocks as they put into complaining about how they’re unfairly represented, in the same way a more reasonable conservative could disavow the more fascistic elements rather than complaining about reportage on the latter, we’d be in a better spot.
And yes this does go the other way too
|
On June 21 2023 21:44 WombaT wrote:
A conspiracy theory can be bolted on to a real phenomenon.
To take one example, is there a clear direction of travel towards physical cash being a rarity, or perhaps one day being non-existent? Absolutely, hard to argue with that.
Can one recognise certain vested interests, or problems in various use cases in doing this? Absolutely, sure
On the flipside can you take this as evidence that a cabal featuring Bill Gates, Klaus Schwab and Steve Buscemi amongst others want to be able to monitor and limit how you spend money so we don’t own things anymore and ultimately we’ll end up eating bugs? Also yes
One is critically evaluating an ongoing development and potential upcoming pitfalls, one is raving conspiratorial nonsense.
As to this gas stove regulation and whatnot, hey it’s not a story I’m going to say I’m that familiar with, can’t really comment on the wisdom or lack thereof. I am going to go out on a limb and assume any comment thread that’s open on this on social media or what have you will have a ton of the latter interspersed with more grounded critique.
If more reasonable skeptics put as much energy into disavowing fringe conspiratorial bollocks as they put into complaining about how they’re unfairly represented, in the same way a more reasonable conservative could disavow the more fascistic elements rather than complaining about reportage on the latter, we’d be in a better spot.
And yes this does go the other way too
Bolded:
Disregarding cabal thing: surely no one would try to limit what news you can see on social media, wouldnt they? or froze bank accounts of protesters, that would be ridiculous, so I kinda see your point about raving conspiratorial nonsense.
It is not like someone like Putin would ever use ability to monitor and limit how you spending money, Thats just crazy talk.
There is also this amusing story:
https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/smart-home-lock-out-amazon-b2358107.html
Luckily the laws against disinformation online are being introduced, so raving conspiracy theorist like Snowden, wont be bothering sane people anymore.
|
On June 21 2023 11:00 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 06:52 Razyda wrote:On June 21 2023 04:01 Sermokala wrote:On June 20 2023 15:22 justanothertownie wrote:On June 20 2023 06:26 Sermokala wrote:On June 20 2023 00:15 justanothertownie wrote:On June 19 2023 19:57 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 09:08 BlackJack wrote:On June 19 2023 07:24 Sadist wrote:On June 19 2023 06:39 BlackJack wrote:[quote] "Where is the evidence for this? Its pure speculation that it was human engineered and it wasnt helpful."https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/06/17/covid-19-fauci-lab-leaks-wuhan-china-origins/7737494002/"In the early days of the growing coronavirus outbreak that would soon become a pandemic, an elite group of international scientists gathered on a conference call to discuss a shocking possibility: The virus looked like it might have been engineered in a laboratory.""A day before the teleconference, Kristian Andersen, an expert in infectious disease genomics at the prestigious Scripps Research Translational Institute in California, had told Fauci first by phone and again later by email that the genetic structure of the virus looked like it might have been engineered in a lab.""“The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered,” Andersen said in an email to Fauci on Jan." "“It was a very productive back-and-forth conversation where some on the call felt it could possibly be an engineered virus,” Fauci said in our interview." "Fauci said his role in helping to organize the meeting shows he has always been open to the possibility of a lab leak or an engineered virus. “I always had an open mind,” he said, “even though I felt then, and still do, the most likely origin was in an animal host.” All that says is might and potentially. Again all inuendo and speculation. Where is the proof? There’s no “proof” for natural origin either… The default position is its natural unless its proven otherwise. I feel like thats pretty obvious. I don't think that should be the obvious default when a virus outbreak happens right next to a lab that works with this type of virus specifically. Especially if you know how some Chinese scientists tend to work... And this is the attitude that leads to a rise of asian hate crimes if its broadcasted by the president of the united state's. I mean the bolded do you really know how chinese scientists tend to work? As a scientist who had to reproduce the work of others countless time I would generally make that claim, yes. I of course do not know the specific scientists of that virology institute and their work (I am a chemist) but in my personal experience when compared to other countries studies published in China always have a higher risk of being not reproduceable either due to being faulty or the authors just being frauds. One reason for this is that for them there is significant financial incentive to just publish anything/large quantities are the most important thing. Also, safety is generally not a very big concern here. You can now tell me that the virologist in China are much more professional if you have any evidence/reason to think so but it would be hard to believe for me. Did you see how you felt you needed to justify your prejudice and try to hit out against the implication of what you were saying ? Thats the problem here, You don't provide context for what you say to people who don't understand where you're coming from and just latch onto the anti chinese part of what you said. That funnels down the line to the grifters like Trump who are trying to cast blame on the virus onto Asian people. On June 21 2023 03:49 BlackJack wrote:
I never said there was any certainty in lab leak. Apparently we are onto the part where you retreat into making up words for me. You've been ranting and raving about the truth of the lab leak being suppressed and censored for pages now. Now you are saying that you don't believe there is any certainty in it. Is your new stance that uncertain theories should be allowed to spread reguardless of the damage they cause? bolded: No he didnt, he literally just answered your question. italic - you are literally only one who did that... As for whether or not it was censored, it seems that some believe that presenting something as: "experts say that it is natural, there is also bunch of flat earthers, conspiracy theorist, nazi and orange devil himself who say it may came from a lab" is a discussion. Also censoring something on social media is irrelevant... may want to compare social media user numbers vs MSM followers numbers. On June 17 2023 05:26 BlackJack wrote:We've known the vaccines have been piss poor at preventing infection ever since Omicron emerged onto the scene. By "we" I should say scientists and society in general. It took another 12 months for this forum to catch on fighting tooth and nail. Also nobody really cares that the lab leak theory was buried. Killing potentially true stories that don't fit the desired narrative is by design, not a defect. So you didnt look at the study and the table 2 in it . Piss poor would be actually massive and desired improvement. If you read the post above that quote you will see you are wrong. He's the one who made a "if you know about Chinese scientists then you know they did this" argument without context to him saying this or qualifying it with it being in his experience. His second post is the appropriate one his first one isn't, I was asking if he understood the difference.
I think you should start working on your reading comprehension. And feel free to call Mohdoos post hate spreading too. I guess you know better than us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
