EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 688
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18161 Posts
On February 06 2023 18:30 Magic Powers wrote: Covid symptoms are easy to detect and not so easy to fake and they're far more severe than the paxlovid side effects. To allow the dismissal of a negative test result is certainly very reasonable. There will always be individual cases of malpractice, errors, or a patient successfully lying, but those cases shouldn't interfere with a good policy. To what end does a patient lie about Covid symptoms. Insofar as I know, paxlovid is not addictive. It's definitely not an amphetamine or an opioid, which are the really problematic ones (insofar as I know). So lets say the absolute worst case scenario: 1. Someone lies about their symptoms. 2. They test negative for covid. 3. They are prescriped paxlovid. What is the awful thing that happens now? | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On February 06 2023 18:30 Magic Powers wrote: Covid symptoms are easy to detect and not so easy to fake and they're far more severe than the paxlovid side effects. To allow the dismissal of a negative test result is certainly very reasonable. There will always be individual cases of malpractice, errors, or a patient successfully lying, but those cases shouldn't interfere with a good policy. Just to be clear, COVID symptoms are incredibly easy to fake and not at all easy to detect. It's mostly all self-reporting. We don't have a good way to know if someone has lost their taste or smell, or if they have a sore throat, or body aches, or chills, or fatigue, or if they have been exposed to someone else with COVID, etc. It's also not easy to determine if someone with a fever and flu-like symptoms has COVID or the flu. The main point here is that people lie about having COVID so they can get out of work. Nobody is lying about COVID so they can get their hands on some paxlovid. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11691 Posts
If i wanted to not go to work this week, i would literally have to call my doctor, tell them that i feel sick, and then i could stay home, and they would sign the necessary certificate. I have already gone through that procedure twice (when i was actually sick), and it would be really easy to fake even if i am not sick. But how is that related to this weird paxlovid point? | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On February 06 2023 19:22 Simberto wrote: Sure, but they could already do that before? And before covid, they could say that they have a cold, or flu-like symptoms, or whatever. If i wanted to not go to work this week, i would literally have to call my doctor, tell them that i feel sick, and then i could stay home, and they would sign the necessary certificate. I have already gone through that procedure twice (when i was actually sick), and it would be really easy to fake even if i am not sick. But how is that related to this weird paxlovid point? It's just a way to say "although people may have reasons to lie about having COVID, to get Paxlovid is not one of them." | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18161 Posts
On February 06 2023 19:15 BlackJack wrote: Just to be clear, COVID symptoms are incredibly easy to fake and not at all easy to detect. It's mostly all self-reporting. We don't have a good way to know if someone has lost their taste or smell, or if they have a sore throat, or body aches, or chills, or fatigue, or if they have been exposed to someone else with COVID, etc. It's also not easy to determine if someone with a fever and flu-like symptoms has COVID or the flu. The main point here is that people lie about having COVID so they can get out of work. Nobody is lying about COVID so they can get their hands on some paxlovid. I don't think anybody is lying about COVID to get out of work either. I mean... maybe they are, but the people who are now lying about COVID would otherwise be lying about back pain, a nervous breakdown or any other unverifiable combination of symptoms. Fake illnesses isn't a huge burden on our public health system. COVID won't suddenly add to that. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On February 06 2023 19:51 Acrofales wrote: I don't think anybody is lying about COVID to get out of work either. I mean... maybe they are, but the people who are now lying about COVID would otherwise be lying about back pain, a nervous breakdown or any other unverifiable combination of symptoms. Fake illnesses isn't a huge burden on our public health system. COVID won't suddenly add to that. Maybe that’s just here then. The lovely state of California mandated 2 weeks of paid time off to cover employees who were ill with COVID. But the offer expired at the end of the year. So it was a use it or lose it situation. Let’s just say that I know a lot of people with COVID that used the COVID sick pay and I know a lot of people without COVID that used the COVID sick pay. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11691 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On February 06 2023 20:29 Simberto wrote: Well, that just comes with having a shitty system where people don't have reasonable amounts of actual vacation time and limited sick leave. That makes people treat sick leave as additional vacation time. How much paid vacation and paid sick leave do people generally get in Germany? Is it unlimited? | ||
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Simberto
Germany11691 Posts
Sick leave: Unlimited, but stuff gets handled differently at more than a month of sick leave due to the same reason. I think at some point you get a bit less money. I actually haven't delved very deeply into how this works, because for me it basically always simply meant "As much as i need". These limits are only really relevant if you have some severe chronic illness. Edit: So i just looked up how paid sick leave works: It is 6 weeks per sickness occurence at full pay. (Meaning if i get a cold now, and a different cold in 3 months, that is a different sickness occurence.) After those 6 weeks of normal pay, you get "Krankengeld", which means that instead of your employer, your health insurance pays you money. This is 70% of your income before taxes, but no more than 90% of your income after taxes and so forth. This can be paid for up to 78 weeks in 3 years. I don't know what happens afterwards. But for all intents and purposes, as long as you are not basically incapable of working forever, you have as much sick leave as you need. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4736 Posts
In 2023 I will also get 10 days off due to public holidays and 3 more thanks to my employer. Sick leave pay is 80% of Your normal salary. After 30days it comes from insurer rather than pocket of Your employer. I think there is no limit on how long can You stay on sick leave but the insurer will require regular medical checkups by their specialists. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On February 06 2023 19:15 BlackJack wrote: Just to be clear, COVID symptoms are incredibly easy to fake and not at all easy to detect. It's mostly all self-reporting. We don't have a good way to know if someone has lost their taste or smell, or if they have a sore throat, or body aches, or chills, or fatigue, or if they have been exposed to someone else with COVID, etc. It's also not easy to determine if someone with a fever and flu-like symptoms has COVID or the flu. The main point here is that people lie about having COVID so they can get out of work. Nobody is lying about COVID so they can get their hands on some paxlovid. I said "successfully lying", not "lying to get paxlovid". The paxlovid would be prescribed incorrectly and then either taken or not. Anyhow, such fringe cases are irrelevant compared to the benefit of most people not having to jump through an unnecessary hoop while sick. It's difficult enough in the first place to go to the doctor in a bad state of health, no further discouragement needs to be added to that. It's far more important that people have easy access to good and safe treatment. Paxlovid has proven to provide great relief for many patients and potential downsides of the policy can be addressed when needed. That's also why the Pfizer vaccine was free for all, in many cases even an ID was not required. That was a good choice. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45182 Posts
On February 06 2023 20:52 Simberto wrote: Paid vacation: Legal minimum of 4 weeks, but almost every job gives 6 weeks. + About 11 public holidays (depends on the state, and those might sometimes be on a sunday if you are unlucky.) Sick leave: Unlimited, but stuff gets handled differently at more than a month of sick leave due to the same reason. I think at some point you get a bit less money. I actually haven't delved very deeply into how this works, because for me it basically always simply meant "As much as i need". These limits are only really relevant if you have some severe chronic illness. Edit: So i just looked up how paid sick leave works: It is 6 weeks per sickness occurence at full pay. (Meaning if i get a cold now, and a different cold in 3 months, that is a different sickness occurence.) After those 6 weeks of normal pay, you get "Krankengeld", which means that instead of your employer, your health insurance pays you money. This is 70% of your income before taxes, but no more than 90% of your income after taxes and so forth. This can be paid for up to 78 weeks in 3 years. I don't know what happens afterwards. But for all intents and purposes, as long as you are not basically incapable of working forever, you have as much sick leave as you need. My mind is seriously blown. That's so... respectful. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18161 Posts
On February 06 2023 23:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My mind is seriously blown. That's so... respectful. It seems par for the course for Europe. Here's the law in Spain, but note that most industries have collective bargaining agreements that go well beyond this minimum: 1. For the first 3 days, the employee pays (almost all agreements cover this, and the company pays 100% of the employee's wages) 2. After the first 3 days, the employer pays 60% of the employee's wages (collective agreements can increase this percentage for all employees. my company pays 100%) 3. After the first 15 days, the government pays 60% of the employee's wages (here collective agreements get trickier, I'm not even sure what mine says, because I've never needed it). 4. After the first 20 days, the government pays 74% of the employee's wages. 5. After 1 year, it is no longer covered by the regulations of temporary sick leave, and there are other laws that govern long-term sick leave or permanent disabilities. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11691 Posts
On February 06 2023 23:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: My mind is seriously blown. That's so... respectful. That is what having strong unions over long periods of time gets you. Edit: Also, as Acrofales and Silvanel state, things are basically roughly on this level throughout Europe. Germany is not some massive outlier here, the US however, is. | ||
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Symplectos
Luxembourg42 Posts
Luxembourg: * I have 32 vacation days (plus 7+ national holidays) * 77 days of sick leave, during which the employer must continue to pay the full salary * After those 77 days, the government pays a certain percentage of the salary, I think 100% even for the first three months | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On February 06 2023 20:52 Simberto wrote: Paid vacation: Legal minimum of 4 weeks, but almost every job gives 6 weeks. + About 11 public holidays (depends on the state, and those might sometimes be on a sunday if you are unlucky.) Sick leave: Unlimited, but stuff gets handled differently at more than a month of sick leave due to the same reason. I think at some point you get a bit less money. I actually haven't delved very deeply into how this works, because for me it basically always simply meant "As much as i need". These limits are only really relevant if you have some severe chronic illness. Edit: So i just looked up how paid sick leave works: It is 6 weeks per sickness occurence at full pay. (Meaning if i get a cold now, and a different cold in 3 months, that is a different sickness occurence.) After those 6 weeks of normal pay, you get "Krankengeld", which means that instead of your employer, your health insurance pays you money. This is 70% of your income before taxes, but no more than 90% of your income after taxes and so forth. This can be paid for up to 78 weeks in 3 years. I don't know what happens afterwards. But for all intents and purposes, as long as you are not basically incapable of working forever, you have as much sick leave as you need. Where I work offers time off about as generous as this, roughly 10 weeks off per year to cover vacation and illnesses with any time you don’t use rolling over to the next year indefinitely. illnesses lasting longer than 3 days have a separate time bank to draw from. There’s still no shortage of people that will take advantage of another free 2 weeks. Hell, even if u got 30 weeks off it seems like you’d be a fool to turn down 32 weeks. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14060 Posts
Its what makes the offers to move to Finland or Italy hard to ignore some parts of the year. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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justanothertownie
16320 Posts
On February 06 2023 19:22 Simberto wrote: Sure, but they could already do that before? And before covid, they could say that they have a cold, or flu-like symptoms, or whatever. If i wanted to not go to work this week, i would literally have to call my doctor, tell them that i feel sick, and then i could stay home, and they would sign the necessary certificate. I have already gone through that procedure twice (when i was actually sick), and it would be really easy to fake even if i am not sick. But how is that related to this weird paxlovid point? Yeah, I also should have said I have a cold instead then this would have been easy. Unfortunately, I was clueless and honest. | ||
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