|
Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.
Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On November 07 2022 19:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2022 19:12 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 19:03 Magic Powers wrote:
No, we're having this discussion here or we don't. I want people to see what both of us are saying, otherwise I'm not interested.
This is not about myocarditis, this is about you using definitions whichever way is temporarily convenient for you, and switching the definition when that becomes more convenient.
Why are you not questioning the claim of vaccine safety? Should they, according to your definition, not instead say "vaccines are almost safe"? And just to get ahead of potential goalpost moving: I'm obviously still talking about covid vaccines, more specifically Pfizer and Moderna. Then yeah we're not having the discussion. You think I want to have to discussion while simultaneously putting up with that dimwit saying
HeY GuyS BJ OnLY wants TO talk abOUT MyoCarditis!!!! He DoESn'T evEN KnoW VaCCines SavE LivEs!!Yeah sounds like a lot of fun but I politely decline. and we can say vaccines are safe because billions have been given out now the the risks are very very small. Which is different than saying there are no risks. Again this is generally collectively understood language. A routine medical procedure like a colonoscopy can be called generally safe, nobody would call it risk-free. Who says that you're unaware that vaccines save lives? Serm? I'd be happy to disagree with whoever says that, as I believe you're quite aware that vaccines save lives.
Nobody faults you for not reading his illegible drivel but his existence in this thread for 3 months now has been nothing more than to say that "BJ is an antivaxxer and he doesn't want anyone to get the vaccine because he is so hateful he wants them to die of COVID and if he says different he is lying" or something to that regard. Then he asks ridiculously stupid loaded questions over and over like "BJ why don't want want anyone to get vaccinated?" or "Why do you think people getting vaccinated is a bad thing?" Which I rightfully ignore then he repeatedly badgers me with "BJ why won't you answer the question!"
Which evidently doesn't violate any forum rules.
|
Yeah it's just badgering, sure. It's not a completely legitimate question since you and the people you're arguing with apparently use different definitions. No, not at all legitimate and productive to ask for a proper definition from you.
|
On November 07 2022 19:41 Magic Powers wrote:
Yeah it's just badgering, sure. It's not a completely legitimate question since you and the people you're arguing with apparently use different definitions. No, not at all legitimate and productive to ask for a proper definition from you.
I'm talking about a different forum user, not you, in case that wasn't clear.
|
Yes I noticed that you were dodging my question.
|
|
|
No, the question was if those official and reputable sources should call the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines "almost safe" instead of "safe"? According to you.
|
On November 07 2022 20:00 Magic Powers wrote:
No, the question was if those official and reputable sources should call the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines "almost safe" instead of "safe"? According to you.
no
|
Thank you. This means you believe that "safe" is better than "risk-free", i.e. that it's perfectly safe.
This would contradict "risk-free". Ergo they would be saying that the vaccines are both safe and not safe at the same time.
|
|
|
On November 07 2022 19:38 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2022 19:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2022 19:12 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 19:03 Magic Powers wrote:
No, we're having this discussion here or we don't. I want people to see what both of us are saying, otherwise I'm not interested.
This is not about myocarditis, this is about you using definitions whichever way is temporarily convenient for you, and switching the definition when that becomes more convenient.
Why are you not questioning the claim of vaccine safety? Should they, according to your definition, not instead say "vaccines are almost safe"? And just to get ahead of potential goalpost moving: I'm obviously still talking about covid vaccines, more specifically Pfizer and Moderna. Then yeah we're not having the discussion. You think I want to have to discussion while simultaneously putting up with that dimwit saying
HeY GuyS BJ OnLY wants TO talk abOUT MyoCarditis!!!! He DoESn'T evEN KnoW VaCCines SavE LivEs!!Yeah sounds like a lot of fun but I politely decline. and we can say vaccines are safe because billions have been given out now the the risks are very very small. Which is different than saying there are no risks. Again this is generally collectively understood language. A routine medical procedure like a colonoscopy can be called generally safe, nobody would call it risk-free. Who says that you're unaware that vaccines save lives? Serm? I'd be happy to disagree with whoever says that, as I believe you're quite aware that vaccines save lives. Nobody faults you for not reading his illegible drivel but his existence in this thread for 3 months now has been nothing more than to say that "BJ is an antivaxxer and he doesn't want anyone to get the vaccine because he is so hateful he wants them to die of COVID and if he says different he is lying" or something to that regard. Then he asks ridiculously stupid loaded questions over and over like "BJ why don't want want anyone to get vaccinated?" or "Why do you think people getting vaccinated is a bad thing?" Which I rightfully ignore then he repeatedly badgers me with "BJ why won't you answer the question!" Which evidently doesn't violate any forum rules.
You're right that my eyes glaze over when the two of you resort to mudslinging and out-pettying each other, instead of having substantive discussions, so let me ask Serm:
Serm, do you recognize that BlackJack knows that vaccines save lives? (A simple Yes or No can suffice; you don't need to go into any more detail if you don't want to, and we don't need to make this about any other covid-related topic that you and he may not agree about.)
|
|
|
|
|
On November 07 2022 16:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2022 13:48 Sermokala wrote:On November 07 2022 12:00 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2022 11:30 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 10:34 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2022 07:40 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 06:48 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2022 04:21 BlackJack wrote:On November 06 2022 19:40 Artisreal wrote:On November 06 2022 17:55 InDaHouse wrote:Well this faction of authoritarian Borg Drones in this thread are now trying to hold the line when their narrative is crashing down. They are the same people sitting alone in their car with a mask or takes a swin in the sea alone with a mask, lol. Are you completely delusional? You’re counterargument is comparing Covid that belongs to the Corona family viruses with Smallpox and Measles is ridicoulus. Covid has more in similarities with the common flu and that is the whole fucking point why it cannot be eradicated. When a virus can harbour in animals (READ COVID) it can also mutate and jump back to humans, thus it is impossible to eradicate Maybe in some other universe in the multiverse, but not here. MEASLES and SMALLPOX cannot infect animals therefore are mandatory vaccinationprograms effective in creating herd immunity. www.cdc.govwww.cdc.govSo the effort to vaccinate the entire world against Covid is useless with the aim to eradicate the virus. This fact is already known by epidemiologist. The mandates will never come back, the Governments will not risk severe civil unrest in the midst of shortage inflation and prelude to global war. Damn so many strawmen... Missing the field for the scarecrows. Strawmen? People are literally talking about eradicating COVID or getting to the point of virtually eliminating it. They are constantly talking about measles and smallpox and other diseases to imply that we can do the same with COVID that we did with them. Nobody is strawmanning this. As I said, I don’t think Sermakola actually said that, if he wishes to correct me and says actually, that’s what he meant then I will appreciate the clarification and go to disagree with him. If I am wrong, I am happy to stand corrected. My understanding is the thrust of the argument is ‘hey it’s still better than not vaccinating people and yeah, it won’t be as effective but there is a precedent of mandatory vaccination anyway, so why not’ BJ: Do you still believe we can achieve herd immunity against COVID and virtually eliminate it from our schools the way we have chicken pox and measles, or...? What?" Sermokala: Yes. Thats what people were saying back in 2020 and what they're saying now. BJ: Well you're wrong and you're using faulty logic to believe that Sermokala: "The logic I'm using is the same logic that has been used successfully in other examples." WombaT: I don't think he's arguing we could eliminate COVID from schools. The thrust of the argument is "hey it's still better than not vaccinating people and yeah it won't be as effective but there is a precedent of mandatory vaccination anyway so why not." Sorry but it's ridiculous. I'm not the one constantly talking about measles and polio and whatever else. It's Sermokala that's constantly referencing these other diseases and constantly referencing herd immunity and very clearly and plainly stating that we can virtually eliminate COVID from schools the way we have these other diseases. But you don't think he's arguing that we could eliminate COVID from schools. As I’ve said, that’s my read. If Sermakola wishes to correct the record and say ‘actually no WombaT, you’re wrong and I actually do think we can essentially eradicate COVID via this course of action’ then, he can make that correction. And I can disagree with that position when such a clarification is forthcoming. Or indeed, pre-emptively disagree with it right now. No skin off my back I don’t know what else you want here. I’ve said in two separate posts that my interpretation of his position is ‘I think vaccination is a good idea, we already mandate all sorts of vaccinations for school kids so why not this one?’ And, I believe his threshold for ‘is a good idea’ is set far below de facto eradication. We can argue thresholds of suitability, because I think that is the disagreement here. Not Sermakola thinking mandatory vaccination in schools will ultimately leave COVID as a non-factor. As I said in previous posts, and have stressed again, I’m not sure how much more clear I can be. That’s my interpretation of his position here, and thus I am not arguing against the idea that ‘if we do this, covid can be de facto eradicated’. If he wants to correct me and I’m misreading, I’m happy to be corrected. Both of you guys seem to have serious issues in communicating with one another, and in misunderstanding one another, in interpreting one another’s posts in the least charitable way possible. I’m adding this to a rather long list, least how I see it as a third party Sure, you can interpret it however you want. But we are also supposed to have some collective understanding of what words mean. If everyone in this thread thinks they are entitled to their own interpretation of "Herd Immunity" and their own interpretation of "eradicate COVID" and their own interpretation of "virtually eliminate COVID in schools the way we have measles and chicken pox" then this whole thread becomes an even bigger waste of time than it already is. Everyone gets to be right, because everyone gets to have their own definitions. Hurray. Maybe Symplectos is right after all and language is the problem. Specificity is important, amongst other things in communication. At no point have I given any inkling that the kind of phrasings that you’ve quoted are things I see as ambiguous and open to much interpretation. ‘Eradicate COVID’ and ‘virtually eliminate’ are not identical, but functionally pretty close. Either COVID is wiped off the earth entirely, as per the former, or it’s so close to being so that functionally it’s basically the same thing, in the latter. I haven’t watered down those definitions and what they mean. I have merely asked Sermakola to clarify if he believes mandatory COVID vaccination in schools is a desirable policy because it will lead in part to that end goal, which is what you believe he claimed, or not. I don’t think that is actually his position and there’s been crossed wires here, but it may well be. Hence my multiple posts seeking clarity on that specific point. I am awaiting confirmation, nothing more, nothing less. Yeah no he got stunlocked when I asked him to compare the covid vaccine mandates with the vaccine mandates you are required to get to go to school. I never made any sort of claim that we would eradicate covid, that was him trying to squirrel out of answering another simple question. I made the argument that if we were really about eradicating diseases or virtually eliminating them that why he thought we still required them. He doesn't really understand how vaccines work so he is just unable to really process that line of questioning and has to cling to what he can process, vague fear-mongering and bad-faith representations of what other people say that he thinks makes a good argument. BJ: Do you still believe we can achieve herd immunity against COVID and virtually eliminate it from our schools the way we have chicken pox and measles, or...? What?"
Sermokala: Yes. Thats what people were saying back in 2020 and what they're saying now.
BJ: Well you're wrong and you're using faulty logic to believe that
Sermokala: "The logic I'm using is the same logic that has been used successfully in other examples." See he doesn't ever state what the faulty logic is or why I'm wrong. He just declares that he's right and trys to grandstand to the crowd about his latest gotcha that no one falls for. When someone presents an argument to him that he doesn't understand he gets frustrated and desperately tries to avoid answering the question so he doesn't get exposed to his inability to grasp basic concepts. He needed a citation for the claim "people get sick when near sick people" then dismissed it out of hand when someone presented it to him. He keeps trying to sneak in doubts about the efficacy of the vaccine when no one has taken that seriously for years now. He keeps sneaking it in because he doesn't understand how a vaccine works or why its good in any way at all. He doesn't understand the concept of adults being in schools or children leaving schools to be with other adults He could ask me basic questions that he's confused about. But he's incapable of processing them like a normal person and just tries to search for a gotcha that isn't there. He makes up these run on stories of arguments no one makes and acts like that has to be what other people think. So after all of BJ's insistence that his interpretation of your statements is the only accurate one possible, and that the rest of us are crazy or insincere... His interpretation was wrong?
I asked him a question about if he understood why he got vaccinated as a kid and then he went on a multiple page tantrum because he couldn't understand why and had to cover up being exposed for not understanding how vaccines work.
|
On November 07 2022 17:06 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2022 13:48 Sermokala wrote:On November 07 2022 12:00 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2022 11:30 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 10:34 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2022 07:40 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 06:48 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2022 04:21 BlackJack wrote:On November 06 2022 19:40 Artisreal wrote:On November 06 2022 17:55 InDaHouse wrote:Well this faction of authoritarian Borg Drones in this thread are now trying to hold the line when their narrative is crashing down. They are the same people sitting alone in their car with a mask or takes a swin in the sea alone with a mask, lol. Are you completely delusional? You’re counterargument is comparing Covid that belongs to the Corona family viruses with Smallpox and Measles is ridicoulus. Covid has more in similarities with the common flu and that is the whole fucking point why it cannot be eradicated. When a virus can harbour in animals (READ COVID) it can also mutate and jump back to humans, thus it is impossible to eradicate Maybe in some other universe in the multiverse, but not here. MEASLES and SMALLPOX cannot infect animals therefore are mandatory vaccinationprograms effective in creating herd immunity. www.cdc.govwww.cdc.govSo the effort to vaccinate the entire world against Covid is useless with the aim to eradicate the virus. This fact is already known by epidemiologist. The mandates will never come back, the Governments will not risk severe civil unrest in the midst of shortage inflation and prelude to global war. Damn so many strawmen... Missing the field for the scarecrows. Strawmen? People are literally talking about eradicating COVID or getting to the point of virtually eliminating it. They are constantly talking about measles and smallpox and other diseases to imply that we can do the same with COVID that we did with them. Nobody is strawmanning this. As I said, I don’t think Sermakola actually said that, if he wishes to correct me and says actually, that’s what he meant then I will appreciate the clarification and go to disagree with him. If I am wrong, I am happy to stand corrected. My understanding is the thrust of the argument is ‘hey it’s still better than not vaccinating people and yeah, it won’t be as effective but there is a precedent of mandatory vaccination anyway, so why not’ BJ: Do you still believe we can achieve herd immunity against COVID and virtually eliminate it from our schools the way we have chicken pox and measles, or...? What?" Sermokala: Yes. Thats what people were saying back in 2020 and what they're saying now. BJ: Well you're wrong and you're using faulty logic to believe that Sermokala: "The logic I'm using is the same logic that has been used successfully in other examples." WombaT: I don't think he's arguing we could eliminate COVID from schools. The thrust of the argument is "hey it's still better than not vaccinating people and yeah it won't be as effective but there is a precedent of mandatory vaccination anyway so why not." Sorry but it's ridiculous. I'm not the one constantly talking about measles and polio and whatever else. It's Sermokala that's constantly referencing these other diseases and constantly referencing herd immunity and very clearly and plainly stating that we can virtually eliminate COVID from schools the way we have these other diseases. But you don't think he's arguing that we could eliminate COVID from schools. As I’ve said, that’s my read. If Sermakola wishes to correct the record and say ‘actually no WombaT, you’re wrong and I actually do think we can essentially eradicate COVID via this course of action’ then, he can make that correction. And I can disagree with that position when such a clarification is forthcoming. Or indeed, pre-emptively disagree with it right now. No skin off my back I don’t know what else you want here. I’ve said in two separate posts that my interpretation of his position is ‘I think vaccination is a good idea, we already mandate all sorts of vaccinations for school kids so why not this one?’ And, I believe his threshold for ‘is a good idea’ is set far below de facto eradication. We can argue thresholds of suitability, because I think that is the disagreement here. Not Sermakola thinking mandatory vaccination in schools will ultimately leave COVID as a non-factor. As I said in previous posts, and have stressed again, I’m not sure how much more clear I can be. That’s my interpretation of his position here, and thus I am not arguing against the idea that ‘if we do this, covid can be de facto eradicated’. If he wants to correct me and I’m misreading, I’m happy to be corrected. Both of you guys seem to have serious issues in communicating with one another, and in misunderstanding one another, in interpreting one another’s posts in the least charitable way possible. I’m adding this to a rather long list, least how I see it as a third party Sure, you can interpret it however you want. But we are also supposed to have some collective understanding of what words mean. If everyone in this thread thinks they are entitled to their own interpretation of "Herd Immunity" and their own interpretation of "eradicate COVID" and their own interpretation of "virtually eliminate COVID in schools the way we have measles and chicken pox" then this whole thread becomes an even bigger waste of time than it already is. Everyone gets to be right, because everyone gets to have their own definitions. Hurray. Maybe Symplectos is right after all and language is the problem. Specificity is important, amongst other things in communication. At no point have I given any inkling that the kind of phrasings that you’ve quoted are things I see as ambiguous and open to much interpretation. ‘Eradicate COVID’ and ‘virtually eliminate’ are not identical, but functionally pretty close. Either COVID is wiped off the earth entirely, as per the former, or it’s so close to being so that functionally it’s basically the same thing, in the latter. I haven’t watered down those definitions and what they mean. I have merely asked Sermakola to clarify if he believes mandatory COVID vaccination in schools is a desirable policy because it will lead in part to that end goal, which is what you believe he claimed, or not. I don’t think that is actually his position and there’s been crossed wires here, but it may well be. Hence my multiple posts seeking clarity on that specific point. I am awaiting confirmation, nothing more, nothing less. Yeah no he got stunlocked when I asked him to compare the covid vaccine mandates with the vaccine mandates you are required to get to go to school. I never made any sort of claim that we would eradicate covid, that was him trying to squirrel out of answering another simple question. I made the argument that if we were really about eradicating diseases or virtually eliminating them that why he thought we still required them. He doesn't really understand how vaccines work so he is just unable to really process that line of questioning and has to cling to what he can process, vague fear-mongering and bad-faith representations of what other people say that he thinks makes a good argument. BJ: Do you still believe we can achieve herd immunity against COVID and virtually eliminate it from our schools the way we have chicken pox and measles, or...? What?"
Sermokala: Yes. Thats what people were saying back in 2020 and what they're saying now.
BJ: Well you're wrong and you're using faulty logic to believe that
Sermokala: "The logic I'm using is the same logic that has been used successfully in other examples." See he doesn't ever state what the faulty logic is or why I'm wrong. He just declares that he's right and trys to grandstand to the crowd about his latest gotcha that no one falls for. When someone presents an argument to him that he doesn't understand he gets frustrated and desperately tries to avoid answering the question so he doesn't get exposed to his inability to grasp basic concepts. He needed a citation for the claim "people get sick when near sick people" then dismissed it out of hand when someone presented it to him. He keeps trying to sneak in doubts about the efficacy of the vaccine when no one has taken that seriously for years now. He keeps sneaking it in because he doesn't understand how a vaccine works or why its good in any way at all. He doesn't understand the concept of adults being in schools or children leaving schools to be with other adults He could ask me basic questions that he's confused about. But he's incapable of processing them like a normal person and just tries to search for a gotcha that isn't there. He makes up these run on stories of arguments no one makes and acts like that has to be what other people think. "See he doesn't ever state what the faulty logic is or why I'm wrong." You're just a miserably dishonest person. I posted exactly why your logic was faulty in regards to virtually eliminating COVID in schools like we have with measles and chicken pox using vaccine mandates. https://tl.net/forum/general/556693-coronavirus-and-you?page=645#12883That's the entire explanation. I didn't include it in the post you quoted for the sake of brevity and you used it as an opportunity to tell a lie: "he just says I'm wrong with no explanation." You on the other hand have never posted a single link to any academic journal or reputable source. All you do is pull claims out of your ass like "we can reach herd immunity against COVID after a few decades of vaccinating children." Which you obviously can't defend so then you launch ad hominem attacks at anyone that questions it. You're a complete waste of space here but people will go out of their way to defend you for no other reason than you are on "their side."
But that had nothing to do with the logic we were discussing. It's the squirmy refraiming you tried to do because you didn't want to confront why kids get vaccinated.
We know you don't mean to be hateful bj we don't take it personally we're just trying to help you understand what's going on in your life. You seem to be struggling hard on a lot of very simple concepts.
|
On November 07 2022 20:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2022 19:38 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 19:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2022 19:12 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 19:03 Magic Powers wrote:
No, we're having this discussion here or we don't. I want people to see what both of us are saying, otherwise I'm not interested.
This is not about myocarditis, this is about you using definitions whichever way is temporarily convenient for you, and switching the definition when that becomes more convenient.
Why are you not questioning the claim of vaccine safety? Should they, according to your definition, not instead say "vaccines are almost safe"? And just to get ahead of potential goalpost moving: I'm obviously still talking about covid vaccines, more specifically Pfizer and Moderna. Then yeah we're not having the discussion. You think I want to have to discussion while simultaneously putting up with that dimwit saying
HeY GuyS BJ OnLY wants TO talk abOUT MyoCarditis!!!! He DoESn'T evEN KnoW VaCCines SavE LivEs!!Yeah sounds like a lot of fun but I politely decline. and we can say vaccines are safe because billions have been given out now the the risks are very very small. Which is different than saying there are no risks. Again this is generally collectively understood language. A routine medical procedure like a colonoscopy can be called generally safe, nobody would call it risk-free. Who says that you're unaware that vaccines save lives? Serm? I'd be happy to disagree with whoever says that, as I believe you're quite aware that vaccines save lives. Nobody faults you for not reading his illegible drivel but his existence in this thread for 3 months now has been nothing more than to say that "BJ is an antivaxxer and he doesn't want anyone to get the vaccine because he is so hateful he wants them to die of COVID and if he says different he is lying" or something to that regard. Then he asks ridiculously stupid loaded questions over and over like "BJ why don't want want anyone to get vaccinated?" or "Why do you think people getting vaccinated is a bad thing?" Which I rightfully ignore then he repeatedly badgers me with "BJ why won't you answer the question!" Which evidently doesn't violate any forum rules. You're right that my eyes glaze over when the two of you resort to mudslinging and out-pettying each other, instead of having substantive discussions, so let me ask Serm: Serm, do you recognize that BlackJack knows that vaccines save lives? (A simple Yes or No can suffice; you don't need to go into any more detail if you don't want to, and we don't need to make this about any other covid-related topic that you and he may not agree about.)
No I don't. He's shown constantly that he reacts violently when pressed on any part about how vaccines work or why they're used. The things he argues most passionately against is results from vaccination efforts or results from previous vaccination efforts.
I think he understands that he would look bad if he admitted that he doesn't think vaccines save lives and so tries desperately to find some justification for him being able to admit it in public.
|
On November 08 2022 01:25 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2022 20:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2022 19:38 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 19:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2022 19:12 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 19:03 Magic Powers wrote:
No, we're having this discussion here or we don't. I want people to see what both of us are saying, otherwise I'm not interested.
This is not about myocarditis, this is about you using definitions whichever way is temporarily convenient for you, and switching the definition when that becomes more convenient.
Why are you not questioning the claim of vaccine safety? Should they, according to your definition, not instead say "vaccines are almost safe"? And just to get ahead of potential goalpost moving: I'm obviously still talking about covid vaccines, more specifically Pfizer and Moderna. Then yeah we're not having the discussion. You think I want to have to discussion while simultaneously putting up with that dimwit saying
HeY GuyS BJ OnLY wants TO talk abOUT MyoCarditis!!!! He DoESn'T evEN KnoW VaCCines SavE LivEs!!Yeah sounds like a lot of fun but I politely decline. and we can say vaccines are safe because billions have been given out now the the risks are very very small. Which is different than saying there are no risks. Again this is generally collectively understood language. A routine medical procedure like a colonoscopy can be called generally safe, nobody would call it risk-free. Who says that you're unaware that vaccines save lives? Serm? I'd be happy to disagree with whoever says that, as I believe you're quite aware that vaccines save lives. Nobody faults you for not reading his illegible drivel but his existence in this thread for 3 months now has been nothing more than to say that "BJ is an antivaxxer and he doesn't want anyone to get the vaccine because he is so hateful he wants them to die of COVID and if he says different he is lying" or something to that regard. Then he asks ridiculously stupid loaded questions over and over like "BJ why don't want want anyone to get vaccinated?" or "Why do you think people getting vaccinated is a bad thing?" Which I rightfully ignore then he repeatedly badgers me with "BJ why won't you answer the question!" Which evidently doesn't violate any forum rules. You're right that my eyes glaze over when the two of you resort to mudslinging and out-pettying each other, instead of having substantive discussions, so let me ask Serm: Serm, do you recognize that BlackJack knows that vaccines save lives? (A simple Yes or No can suffice; you don't need to go into any more detail if you don't want to, and we don't need to make this about any other covid-related topic that you and he may not agree about.) No I don't. He's shown constantly that he reacts violently when pressed on any part about how vaccines work or why they're used. I think he understands that he would look bad if he admitted that he doesn't think vaccines save lives and so tries desperately to find some justification for him being able to admit it in public.
Okay. I don't agree with BJ on everything, and I think he's said other things that weren't very clear, but I also think he's made it clear that he understands that vaccines save lives. People can know that vaccines save lives even if they don't know how they work, or whether they think mandates could be effective, etc.
|
Northern Ireland27265 Posts
Ma, pa stop fighting!
For those more plugged in than I, what does the upcoming winter, traditionally also flu season, but now also what I would assume is also COVID season look like?
At least in my neck of the woods, I haven’t heard a single peep on this, and I’m relatively plugged in.
Is it a case where, for all extents and purposes Covid is being treated as the flu in terms of policy, with those worried about it able to avail of boosters, or is a ‘wait and see’ situation where contingency plans may exist depending on what develops, but as of now haven’t been publicly communicated?
We stretch across a fair few locales so I’m curious how this is across them and if there is divergence in policy
|
On November 08 2022 01:26 WombaT wrote:
Ma, pa stop fighting!
For those more plugged in than I, what does the upcoming winter, traditionally also flu season, but now also what I would assume is also COVID season look like?
At least in my neck of the woods, I haven’t heard a single peep on this, and I’m relatively plugged in.
Is it a case where, for all extents and purposes Covid is being treated as the flu in terms of policy, with those worried about it able to avail of boosters, or is a ‘wait and see’ situation where contingency plans may exist depending on what develops, but as of now haven’t been publicly communicated?
We stretch across a fair few locales so I’m curious how this is across them and if there is divergence in policy
In UK kinda busy times (Ukraine, inflation, 3 PMs, new king - Charles on top of that, which did not go well last 2 times - and Lizzie crushing economy for fun, while explaining that PM of Scotland needs to be ignored) I did read something though about some new variants circulating, I think 2, but cant be sure.
|
On November 08 2022 01:13 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2022 16:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 07 2022 13:48 Sermokala wrote:On November 07 2022 12:00 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2022 11:30 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 10:34 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2022 07:40 BlackJack wrote:On November 07 2022 06:48 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2022 04:21 BlackJack wrote:On November 06 2022 19:40 Artisreal wrote:
[quote]
Damn so many strawmen... Missing the field for the scarecrows. Strawmen? People are literally talking about eradicating COVID or getting to the point of virtually eliminating it. They are constantly talking about measles and smallpox and other diseases to imply that we can do the same with COVID that we did with them. Nobody is strawmanning this. As I said, I don’t think Sermakola actually said that, if he wishes to correct me and says actually, that’s what he meant then I will appreciate the clarification and go to disagree with him. If I am wrong, I am happy to stand corrected. My understanding is the thrust of the argument is ‘hey it’s still better than not vaccinating people and yeah, it won’t be as effective but there is a precedent of mandatory vaccination anyway, so why not’ BJ: Do you still believe we can achieve herd immunity against COVID and virtually eliminate it from our schools the way we have chicken pox and measles, or...? What?" Sermokala: Yes. Thats what people were saying back in 2020 and what they're saying now. BJ: Well you're wrong and you're using faulty logic to believe that Sermokala: "The logic I'm using is the same logic that has been used successfully in other examples." WombaT: I don't think he's arguing we could eliminate COVID from schools. The thrust of the argument is "hey it's still better than not vaccinating people and yeah it won't be as effective but there is a precedent of mandatory vaccination anyway so why not." Sorry but it's ridiculous. I'm not the one constantly talking about measles and polio and whatever else. It's Sermokala that's constantly referencing these other diseases and constantly referencing herd immunity and very clearly and plainly stating that we can virtually eliminate COVID from schools the way we have these other diseases. But you don't think he's arguing that we could eliminate COVID from schools. As I’ve said, that’s my read. If Sermakola wishes to correct the record and say ‘actually no WombaT, you’re wrong and I actually do think we can essentially eradicate COVID via this course of action’ then, he can make that correction. And I can disagree with that position when such a clarification is forthcoming. Or indeed, pre-emptively disagree with it right now. No skin off my back I don’t know what else you want here. I’ve said in two separate posts that my interpretation of his position is ‘I think vaccination is a good idea, we already mandate all sorts of vaccinations for school kids so why not this one?’ And, I believe his threshold for ‘is a good idea’ is set far below de facto eradication. We can argue thresholds of suitability, because I think that is the disagreement here. Not Sermakola thinking mandatory vaccination in schools will ultimately leave COVID as a non-factor. As I said in previous posts, and have stressed again, I’m not sure how much more clear I can be. That’s my interpretation of his position here, and thus I am not arguing against the idea that ‘if we do this, covid can be de facto eradicated’. If he wants to correct me and I’m misreading, I’m happy to be corrected. Both of you guys seem to have serious issues in communicating with one another, and in misunderstanding one another, in interpreting one another’s posts in the least charitable way possible. I’m adding this to a rather long list, least how I see it as a third party Sure, you can interpret it however you want. But we are also supposed to have some collective understanding of what words mean. If everyone in this thread thinks they are entitled to their own interpretation of "Herd Immunity" and their own interpretation of "eradicate COVID" and their own interpretation of "virtually eliminate COVID in schools the way we have measles and chicken pox" then this whole thread becomes an even bigger waste of time than it already is. Everyone gets to be right, because everyone gets to have their own definitions. Hurray. Maybe Symplectos is right after all and language is the problem. Specificity is important, amongst other things in communication. At no point have I given any inkling that the kind of phrasings that you’ve quoted are things I see as ambiguous and open to much interpretation. ‘Eradicate COVID’ and ‘virtually eliminate’ are not identical, but functionally pretty close. Either COVID is wiped off the earth entirely, as per the former, or it’s so close to being so that functionally it’s basically the same thing, in the latter. I haven’t watered down those definitions and what they mean. I have merely asked Sermakola to clarify if he believes mandatory COVID vaccination in schools is a desirable policy because it will lead in part to that end goal, which is what you believe he claimed, or not. I don’t think that is actually his position and there’s been crossed wires here, but it may well be. Hence my multiple posts seeking clarity on that specific point. I am awaiting confirmation, nothing more, nothing less. Yeah no he got stunlocked when I asked him to compare the covid vaccine mandates with the vaccine mandates you are required to get to go to school. I never made any sort of claim that we would eradicate covid, that was him trying to squirrel out of answering another simple question. I made the argument that if we were really about eradicating diseases or virtually eliminating them that why he thought we still required them. He doesn't really understand how vaccines work so he is just unable to really process that line of questioning and has to cling to what he can process, vague fear-mongering and bad-faith representations of what other people say that he thinks makes a good argument. BJ: Do you still believe we can achieve herd immunity against COVID and virtually eliminate it from our schools the way we have chicken pox and measles, or...? What?"
Sermokala: Yes. Thats what people were saying back in 2020 and what they're saying now.
BJ: Well you're wrong and you're using faulty logic to believe that
Sermokala: "The logic I'm using is the same logic that has been used successfully in other examples." See he doesn't ever state what the faulty logic is or why I'm wrong. He just declares that he's right and trys to grandstand to the crowd about his latest gotcha that no one falls for. When someone presents an argument to him that he doesn't understand he gets frustrated and desperately tries to avoid answering the question so he doesn't get exposed to his inability to grasp basic concepts. He needed a citation for the claim "people get sick when near sick people" then dismissed it out of hand when someone presented it to him. He keeps trying to sneak in doubts about the efficacy of the vaccine when no one has taken that seriously for years now. He keeps sneaking it in because he doesn't understand how a vaccine works or why its good in any way at all. He doesn't understand the concept of adults being in schools or children leaving schools to be with other adults He could ask me basic questions that he's confused about. But he's incapable of processing them like a normal person and just tries to search for a gotcha that isn't there. He makes up these run on stories of arguments no one makes and acts like that has to be what other people think. So after all of BJ's insistence that his interpretation of your statements is the only accurate one possible, and that the rest of us are crazy or insincere... His interpretation was wrong? I asked him a question about if he understood why he got vaccinated as a kid and then went on a multiple page tantrum because he couldn't understand why and had to cover up being exposed for not understanding how vaccines work.
I am not sure if you realise what you wrote here...
|
On November 08 2022 01:26 WombaT wrote:
Ma, pa stop fighting!
For those more plugged in than I, what does the upcoming winter, traditionally also flu season, but now also what I would assume is also COVID season look like?
At least in my neck of the woods, I haven’t heard a single peep on this, and I’m relatively plugged in.
Is it a case where, for all extents and purposes Covid is being treated as the flu in terms of policy, with those worried about it able to avail of boosters, or is a ‘wait and see’ situation where contingency plans may exist depending on what develops, but as of now haven’t been publicly communicated?
We stretch across a fair few locales so I’m curious how this is across them and if there is divergence in policy
I believe this year's recommendation is pretty much the usual for flu seasons: just to be safe, you might as well get your annual flu vaccine, regardless of your covid vaccination status. Moving forwards, I'm predicting that there will be an annual covid booster shot running parallel to the annual flu shot, so that the conventional wisdom will end up being that you might as well get both shots each year, to help reduce the chance of serious infection from either virus (assuming both stay endemic).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
