EPTthe body 'stores' the memory of how to deal with a virus(at cell/system level) and does not produce antibodies forever.
that is 'immunity' - when the body knows how to react and does react to a virus.
Coronavirus and You - Page 472
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
the body 'stores' the memory of how to deal with a virus(at cell/system level) and does not produce antibodies forever. that is 'immunity' - when the body knows how to react and does react to a virus. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On September 19 2021 20:57 BlackJack wrote: Magic Powers: Vaccination (especially Pfizer) contains no risk other than a sore arm for a few days and in few cases maybe a day of (harmless) side effects. WHO: Clinicians should be aware of the risk of myocarditis and pericarditis with mRNA vaccines Now I don't know who to believe People are fallible, objective reality is not. You should never trust any source, you should always check multiple independent sources. From the CDC: Cases of myocarditis reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)external icon have occurred: After (not because of) mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna), especially in male adolescents and young adults, More often after the second dose Usually within several days after vaccination Most patients with myocarditis or pericarditis who received care responded well to medicine and rest and felt better quickly. Patients can usually return to their normal daily activities after their symptoms improve. Those who have been diagnosed with myocarditis should consult with their cardiologist (heart doctor) about return to exercise or sports. More information will be shared as it becomes available. Furthermore, no hospitalizations or deaths have occured as a result of myocarditis after vaccination. No chronic cases either. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html There is clearly no risk from Pfizer. | ||
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teeel141
93 Posts
On September 19 2021 21:22 Magic Powers wrote: People are fallible, objective reality is not. You should never trust any source, you should always check multiple independent sources. From the CDC: Cases of myocarditis reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)external icon have occurred: After (not because of) mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna), especially in male adolescents and young adults, More often after the second dose Usually within several days after vaccination Most patients with myocarditis or pericarditis who received care responded well to medicine and rest and felt better quickly. Patients can usually return to their normal daily activities after their symptoms improve. Those who have been diagnosed with myocarditis should consult with their cardiologist (heart doctor) about return to exercise or sports. More information will be shared as it becomes available. Furthermore, no hospitalizations or deaths have occured as a result of myocarditis after vaccination. No chronic cases either. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html There is clearly no risk from Pfizer. Most patients Patients can usually And what about the people who don't fall into those categories? Furthermore, no hospitalizations or deaths have occured as a result of myocarditis after vaccination. No chronic cases either. Your source doesn't say this btw. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5299 Posts
an actual good read, unlike the panic inducing shit you people link here. A lot of worry has been triggered by discoveries that variants of the pandemic-causing coronavirus can be more infectious than the original. But now scientists are starting to find some signs of hope on the human side of this microbe-host interaction. By studying the blood of COVID survivors and people who have been vaccinated, immunologists are learning that some of our immune system cells—which remember past infections and react to them—might have their own abilities to change, countering mutations in the virus. What this means, scientists think, is that the immune system might have evolved its own way of dealing with variants. “Essentially, the immune system is trying to get ahead of the virus,” says Michel Nussenzweig, an immunologist at the Rockefeller University, who conducted some recent studies that tracked this phenomenon. The emerging idea is that the body maintains reserve armies of antibody-producing cells in addition to the original cells that responded to the initial invasion by SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID. Over time some reserve cells mutate and produce antibodies that are better able to recognize new viral versions. “It’s really elegant mechanism that that we’ve evolved, basically, to be able to handle things like variants,” says Marion Pepper, an immunologist at the University of Washington, who was not involved in Nussenzweig’s research. Whether there are enough of these cells, and their antibodies, to confer protection against a shape-shifting SARS-CoV-2 is still being figured out. ... What the scientists found was somewhat encouraging. Blood collected at the later date did have lower levels of circulating antibodies, but that made sense because the infection had cleared. And levels of the cells that make antibodies, called memory B cells, remained constant or even increased in some people over time. After an infection, these cells hang around in the body’s lymph nodes and maintain the ability to recognize the virus. If a person gets infected a second time, memory B cells activate, quickly produce antibodies and block the virus from creating a second serious infection. In a follow-up test, the Rockefeller scientists cloned these reserve B cells and tested their antibodies against a version of SARS-CoV-2 designed to look like one of the new variants. (The experimental virus lacked the ability to replicate, which made it safer to use in the lab.) This virus had been genetically engineered to have specific mutations in its spike protein, the part of the coronavirus that attaches to human cells. The mutations mimicked a few of the ones currently found in the variants of concern. When researchers tested the reserve cells against this mutated virus, they saw some cells produced antibodies that glommed on to the mutated spike proteins—even though these spikes were different than those on the original virus. What this means is that the antibodies had changed over time to recognize different viral features. The research was published in Nature in January. “What the paper shows us is that, in fact, the immune response is evolving—that there’s some dynamic changes over this period of time,” Nussenzweig says. and people here are posting 'statistics' based on people who-think-they-had-covid ... whattheactualfuck. Of people with self-reported long COVID, 817,000 (84%) first had (or suspected they had) COVID-19 at least 12 weeks previously, and 384,000 (40%) first had (or suspected they had) COVID-19 at least one year previously. stop scaring ALL the people. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22283 Posts
On September 19 2021 20:57 BlackJack wrote: Take any random medicine package you have and read the flyer of possible side-effects if you want to be horrified about what doctors let you put in your body.Magic Powers: Vaccination (especially Pfizer) contains no risk other than a sore arm for a few days and in few cases maybe a day of (harmless) side effects. WHO: Clinicians should be aware of the risk of myocarditis and pericarditis with mRNA vaccines Now I don't know who to believe Just because it is a possible side-effect that could happen and doctors have to be aware of its existence doesn't mean that it is a realistic threat to you as a user. If this stuff bothers you so much I hope you have never taken an aspirin or cough syrup in your life. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On September 19 2021 22:05 teeel141 wrote: And what about the people who don't fall into those categories? Your source doesn't say this btw. 1) I don't know. From what I can gather the sentence refers to myocarditis in general, not only in regards to cases linked to Pfizer. Unfortunately the wording doesn't make that entirely clear because it says "can" and not "did", and there's no further clarification. 2) Are you suspecting that they've released numbers from cases of myocarditis but not of resulting deaths or hospitalizations? | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On September 19 2021 22:06 xM(Z wrote: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/your-immune-system-evolves-to-fight-coronavirus-variants/ an actual good read, unlike the panic inducing shit you people link here. and people here are posting 'statistics' based on people who-think-they-had-covid ... whattheactualfuck. stop scaring ALL the people. The data from the analysis I linked shows that (self-reported) long-covid symptoms are significantly stronger linked to (self-reports of) more recent infections. This can't be brushed off as inaccurate self-reporting, unless we suspect a population-level conspiracy directed at that research. The study therefore shows a very strong correlation between infections and long-covid. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
"There have been very rare reports of myocarditis and pericarditis occurring after vaccination with Comirnaty often in younger men and shortly after the second dose of the vaccine. These are typically mild cases and individuals tend to recover within a short time following standard treatment and rest." No mention of individuals not recovering. I would assume this means the phrase "tend to" refers to "within short time" and not to "recover" (i.e. at all). The wording is imprecise and there's no clarification, so I can't say for sure. "Myocarditis has affected less than one person in a million people who have had Comirnaty vaccine in the European Union countries. In most cases the myocarditis was mild and is not expected to have any long-term effects." https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/Alerts/comirnaty-myocarditis-alert.htm | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Amumoman
153 Posts
On September 19 2021 22:47 Magic Powers wrote: The data from the analysis I linked shows that (self-reported) long-covid symptoms are significantly stronger linked to (self-reports of) more recent infections. This can't be brushed off as inaccurate self-reporting, unless we suspect a population-level conspiracy directed at that research. The study therefore shows a very strong correlation between infections and long-covid. Properly and appropriately adjusted for nocebo, surely? | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On September 19 2021 23:22 Amumoman wrote: Properly and appropriately adjusted for nocebo, surely? The report says the following: "Data on 21 individual symptoms were collected only from study participants who reported experiencing long COVID, so we were unable to compare symptom prevalence in these people to that in the general population." https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/prevalenceofongoingsymptomsfollowingcoronaviruscovid19infectionintheuk/4june2021#strengths-and-limitations However: "In our previous release, we reported that prolonged symptoms were more common following confirmed coronavirus infection than in a control group who were unlikely to have had COVID-19. However, this previous analysis only included 12 of the 21 symptoms covered in the present analysis, and it is not possible to generalise the findings to the other nine symptoms." A bunch of howevers, but the strength of this analysis still cannot be understated. I'm quite familiar with statistical fallacies and cognitive biases as I have to regularly eliminate those in my own work. Of course you don't have to trust my word, it's all in writing in the study and you can look for methodological errors or impossible conclusions. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On September 19 2021 23:55 Artisreal wrote: the sudden rigour directed at a very tiny fraction of medicine people usually take - not to speak of legal and illegal drugs - shines such a strong spotlight on the double standard applied that I have to weak sunglasses when reading this topic. It's even more... interesting (read: stupid) when you consider that some of the people `skeptical' of the vaccine are taking literal horse dewormer instead  | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
In other news, I found no backlogging of Florida's daily infections on worldometer, which means it only affects daily deaths. For daily infections I did find that they correct the numbers from several weeks back, but these corrections are minuscule (the biggest correction was <1% of a previous day) and probably have nothing to do with the reporting method. | ||
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
https://www.bt.dk/udland/hjerteskaerende-video-lille-dreng-isoleret-fra-foraeldre-paa-grund-af-corona Article in danish | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
On September 20 2021 04:17 Sapaio wrote: Young Chinese children get isolated from parents if they have convid, and protest against this rather brutal treatment has started in China. https://www.bt.dk/udland/hjerteskaerende-video-lille-dreng-isoleret-fra-foraeldre-paa-grund-af-corona Article in danish I don't think it is healthy for me to watch that. This pandemic has shown me how shockingly easy it is to take away social rights and personal freedoms, often to little protests, based on weak scientific backing and with the blessing of many. Just imagine 2 years ago that someone told you that: -Borders in Europe which took years to open would all be closed. -Facecovering in public will be considered good and responsable, and you can be fined for not wearing it. -Telemarketers can call you and say you need to stay home without being sick, and you can get a massive fine if you don't do as they say. -Families, friends and couples split up by borders are forced not see eachother for a year or more. -The tourists, nightlife and enterntainment industries would be completely closed down for over a year. -Children would be forbidden to play with their friends. -An entire generation of youngsters would have the quality of their education destroyed for extended periods. -There would never initially be an end-date set for any of these measures. etc. etc. etc. I would be absolutely shocked, and if I were told a virus would cause this, I would assume it would have to kill at least 20% of all people cathing it, across all ages. I suddently understand a lot better how dictatorships are formed. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On September 19 2021 22:22 Gorsameth wrote: Take any random medicine package you have and read the flyer of possible side-effects if you want to be horrified about what doctors let you put in your body. Just because it is a possible side-effect that could happen and doctors have to be aware of its existence doesn't mean that it is a realistic threat to you as a user. If this stuff bothers you so much I hope you have never taken an aspirin or cough syrup in your life. No kidding. From my first post beginning the discussion: On September 18 2021 04:02 BlackJack wrote: The risks are very small and heavily outweighed by the risks of contracting COVID, but they aren't zero. Funny how this is the controversial opinion here. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On September 20 2021 05:52 BlackJack wrote: No kidding. From my first post beginning the discussion: Funny how this is the controversial opinion here. No, this is what you said: On September 18 2021 04:02 BlackJack wrote: This is simply untrue. The risks are very small and heavily outweighed by the risks of contracting COVID, but they aren't zero. I think this is a terrible way to encourage people to be vaccinated. If someone is skeptical about vaccines, lying to them about there being no risk is just going to make them even more skeptical. In response to this: On September 18 2021 00:18 Magic Powers wrote: Covid-19 contains more risks than just dropping dead. Vaccination (especially Pfizer) contains no risk other than a sore arm for a few days and in few cases maybe a day of (harmless) side effects. There's no risk from vaccination. There's only risk from infection. To you and to others. Explain to us the gap in this reasoning. The concrete gap. No more vague talk about unknown unknowns that are unknown. Be concrete. Your controversial opinion wasn't you saying that the risk is heavily outweighed. It was your claim that it's a lie to say there aren't any risks besides a sore arm and a day of harmless side effects. You could've said all sorts of other things. You could've disagreed by saying you think there are risks, and named them. You could've said that the risks are negligible, but they exist. Then we could've had a normal discussion about that and come to the realization that our opinions on the interpretation of the data may differ but our conclusion is the same or similar enough so that we can move on. Instead you resorted to accusing me of lying, which you then denied. And despite your conclusion seemingly being of a similar nature, you found it more important to keep splitting hairs about either zero risk or negligible risk. This wasn't simply a controversy about the facts. This was a personal cruisade of yours. Just like it was with you and JimmiC before. You have a record of doing this. Are you going to keep doing this? | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On September 19 2021 21:22 Magic Powers wrote: People are fallible, objective reality is not. You should never trust any source, you should always check multiple independent sources. From the CDC: Cases of myocarditis reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)external icon have occurred: After (not because of) mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna), especially in male adolescents and young adults, More often after the second dose Usually within several days after vaccination Most patients with myocarditis or pericarditis who received care responded well to medicine and rest and felt better quickly. Patients can usually return to their normal daily activities after their symptoms improve. Those who have been diagnosed with myocarditis should consult with their cardiologist (heart doctor) about return to exercise or sports. More information will be shared as it becomes available. Furthermore, no hospitalizations or deaths have occured as a result of myocarditis after vaccination. No chronic cases either. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html There is clearly no risk from Pfizer. "No hospitalizations or deaths have occurred as a result of myocarditis after vaccination" This is an incredibly bold statement that you have not substantiated(unsurprisingly). Myocarditis is very serious, it is taken very seriously, and it often leads to hospitalization. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2782900 Here is a study examining the EMR of 40 hospitals in the western US. Of the 2 million patients they looked at, they identified 20 patients that developed myocarditis shortly after receiving mRNA vaccines. Of those 20, 19 were admitted to the hospital with 2 being admitted to the ICU. They also identified 37 patients that developed pericarditis after vaccination with 13 of those patients being admitted to the hospital. | ||
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