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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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farvacola
United States18846 Posts
On January 14 2021 04:56 Artisreal wrote: I see you two have either good and tight masks or don't wear glasses :-D Got the worst of two worlds, glasses and facial hair that collects moisture in the most awful way | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On January 14 2021 05:09 farvacola wrote: Got the worst of two worlds, glasses and facial hair that collects moisture in the most awful way Feel you there, I have to really pack my mask down to avoid the fogging issue, which leaves my lower face feeling like a swamp. All in all an extremely minor convenience all things considered. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
The economy is slowly recovering and hopes are being raised. Wuhan will recover. But many people will lose many years of their lives. The rosey picture that some people are painting as an outcome of the toughest lockdown in the world isn't real and it was never real. I find it very important to say this. China's tight grip on Wuhan wasn't a model for other countries and it should never become a model. Lockdowns should be a last resort if all else fails, they should never be normal, and they should never be embraced. All these lockdowns around the world have been far too destructive and could've been unneeded if we had taken smart steps to prepare (Bill Gates warned us all long ago). As preparation for a future outbreak what needs to happen is the building and nurturing of a network of planning and communication, preventing the need for any type of lockdown as much as possible. If we want a model for the future, lets look to Taiwan instead of China. I don't know how many people will get the message, but the more the better. https://www.iol.co.za/news/world/life-mostly-back-to-normal-in-wuhan-but-the-lockdown-after-effects-linger-c41d92c0-fd61-5ed2-99fc-8bc3cb424670 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/wuhan-strives-to-return-to-normal-but-scars-from-the-pandemic-run-deep/ar-BB18EQyD | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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farvacola
United States18846 Posts
On January 14 2021 06:11 WombaT wrote: Feel you there, I have to really pack my mask down to avoid the fogging issue, which leaves my lower face feeling like a swamp. All in all an extremely minor convenience all things considered. Yep, I see it as a sort of challenge and I will not lose  | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
That's the real deal. Not the slight discomfort some people complain about when wearing a mask for a bus ride even if they didnae ran to catch it. | ||
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Slydie
1929 Posts
On January 14 2021 04:08 Lmui wrote: If surgeons can wear them for 10+ hour surgeries, you can wear them for 30 min while you're indoors shopping. I live in Spain, if they only had mask mandates while shopping, I could easily live with it! Like in the US, masks became politics, and you are obliged to wear them as much as physically possible. That includes: -Obviously at stores, gyms, schools and workplaces. -Outside, except when smoking or during hard excersise, they tried to ban smoking in the street as well, but it was deemed unconsitutional. In some areas, "scenery" is excepted, but others insist that a lone mountain hike is risk. -For all kids down to 6 years old, both at school and while playing outside. -At bars and cafés, except "at the moment of consumption". You are not going to get closer to the mythical "universal mask" target anywere than Spain. The problem is, all kinds of stupid mask norms have ocurred, so it is really more about not showing your face in public than stopping the spread of the virus. I actually read up on mask use way back, but I am about as bad a mask-wearer as anyone now. You just can't be bothered, and you eventually just follow the social norms rather than medical guidelines, which are waaay in the background now. If that surgeon or dentist would touch their mask while working with it and then fiddle with sterile instruments, that person should be fired. Still, people think that mask use without washing hands while eating and drinking is a good idea. Those same masks have often been worn for many hours before that because of the mandate, being as charged up with as much virus as possible if you are positive. Oh, Spain hit a record 38k new cases today. Universal masks failed. No western country should follow suit. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On January 14 2021 07:01 Artisreal wrote: IIRC wombat is a retail worker in the UK, so I'd wager he must have experienced the early pandemic 10-12+ hours "mask on" shifts. That's the real deal. Not the slight discomfort some people complain about when wearing a mask for a bus ride even if they didnae ran to catch it. Sadly not early pandemic, things lagged quite a bit and precautions early doors were mostly on the assumption it primarily spread on surfaces. But yeah from then on we’ve been going with that. From what I gather it’s still a good deal more comfortable than proper medical grade masks, but I’m not grinning and bearing it I mean it isn’t even a particular inconvenience. I’ve went to light quite a few smokes on my breaks and I’ve forgotten I had my mask on and looked a right prat. We’re quite a moany lot in retail but truth be told mask wearing is rarely if ever something we moan about. The behaviour of the public in continually flouting any sensible Covid precautions yeah absolutely we complain incessantly about that, partly because mask wearing and distancing just isn’t a big deal for us to do whatsoever. | ||
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Sadist
United States7322 Posts
Im sure it spreads somewhat on surfaces but it cant be the primary method of spread. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5750 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On January 14 2021 08:31 Sadist wrote: I have a hard time believing the touching/surfaces spread is very prevalent. If it was, the numbers we have had in the US I think would be significantly higher. We touch things everywhere. Even if you wash your hands constantly, wash groceries, packaging, etc youd eventually make a mistake. It has to be prolonged contact with respiration. If it was primarily surface driven i think it would have spread slower initially but once we had a critical mass id think wed be screwed. Youd have tons of people getting covid at grocery stores and from ordering take out. Im sure it spreads somewhat on surfaces but it cant be the primary method of spread. Well no, nobody really does now as far as I’m aware. We’re talking really, really early doors when much was to be discovered. Maybe the first month when it became clear we had a pandemic on our hands, if even. I still think we’re getting it wrong really. Even if Covid doesn’t spread particularly well or survive on many types of surfaces too long, hand hygiene and wiping and disinfecting of surfaces was better adhered to, both by colleagues and customers. I feel anecdotally that there have been periods prior to higher mask uptake where socially distancing taken in isolation was better adhered to. Now masks have given (IMO) a false sense of security, for those that even wear them, and there’s been a decline in other practices. It’s purely anecdotal, if the better hand hygiene etc I observed due to bad information on the spread of Covid was married to mask wearing (and proper use of masks you outlined), combined with adherence to distancing in combination they’d prove more effective. Also just enforce guidelines, give people the power to do it. It’s been a guideline for quite some fucking time now for people to shop alone where possible, outside of child-related responsibilities. That is just not done, at all. Christmas was horrendous for entire extended families all out for a shop together, absolutely needlessly. Go with evidence and things that make sense. We’ve been gradually curtailing more and more things and yet very little is being done to alter the real last remaining environment of large groups of people congregating indoors and in close proximity? As per your experiences in Spain, I agree that a mask mandate that includes walking outdoors is just hitting levels of performativeness and would have little if any practical impact. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
Make 1 trip as two or two trips as one. Which one's better? Of course if it's two blokes buying three snickers, or a family trip to the groceries because nothing else is open, that just sounds wrong. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On January 14 2021 06:30 JimmiC wrote: And that would have been the case minus the lockdown along with a huge amount of deaths. Only if unprepared. Taiwan had no hard lockdowns and few restrictions while keeping infections and deaths very low. They were so well prepared that they could've kept numbers very low even if the virus had broken out in their own country. SK is another example of a country that has kept numbers very low despite not being prepared for a virus like this. The reason why it got so bad in Wuhan was mainly because the Chinese authorities kept ignoring the issue, so the response came very late. As a result they had to take drastic measures that would've otherwise been unneeded, at least to such an extreme extent. There's absolutely no reason to talk soft about the actions of the Chinese government. They should be harshly condemned, not doing so would give people a false picture of successful action. They did something that would be unthinkable in any free country. The next pandemic can be stopped dead in its tracks if we understand which of the responses were the most optimal. This means being honest about every country's response is crucial for our future. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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meiji_emperor
27 Posts
On January 14 2021 10:12 Magic Powers wrote: Only if unprepared. Taiwan had no hard lockdowns and few restrictions while keeping infections and deaths very low. They were so well prepared that they could've kept numbers very low even if the virus had broken out in their own country. SK is another example of a country that has kept numbers very low despite not being prepared for a virus like this. The reason why it got so bad in Wuhan was mainly because the Chinese authorities kept ignoring the issue, so the response came very late. As a result they had to take drastic measures that would've otherwise been unneeded, at least to such an extreme extent. There's absolutely no reason to talk soft about the actions of the Chinese government. They should be harshly condemned, not doing so would give people a false picture of successful action. They did something that would be unthinkable in any free country. The next pandemic can be stopped dead in its tracks if we understand which of the responses were the most optimal. This means being honest about every country's response is crucial for our future. You should take your own advice on honesty and stop peddling lies or denying science. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On January 14 2021 09:24 Artisreal wrote: Well to be frank I can understand people going to the shops together. Make 1 trip as two or two trips as one. Which one's better? Of course if it's two blokes buying three snickers, or a family trip to the groceries because nothing else is open, that just sounds wrong. My particular store is somewhere between the suburbs and the next satellite towns that are part of the wider urban conurbation. Think where IKEAs tend to be situated (at least in my experience). While there is a direct bus link it’s a car-driver’s shopping journey by and large, where people tend to go for their big weekly/fortnightly grocery shop. So it’s really just a case of having one fewer set of hands to load your trolley into your car, in scenarios where actually carrying your shopping is a factor then yeah, 1x2 is preferable. Frankly it shouldn’t be a rule that needs enforced, but hey. When I say extended families I’m recalling one clan who (while I didn’t confirm) consisted of really elderly matriarch and patriarch, two of their offspring and their spouses, and their children all out for a fun day out shopping. At Christmas where it’s already busy as fuck. Everything has a knock-on effect too. You can’t expect retail workers to sit for 9 months when many of their friends are working from home, the public don’t behave properly without a proportion of retail workers to eventually just say fuck it I’m going to that house party or whatever it is. I haven’t myself, not from any great moral certitude but because I’m too depressed to want to see people these days. Everyone has to make sacrifices at this time, but trying to keep your morale up to do so while you’re visibly reminded that others aren’t, and that expose you to risk just crushes morale. I can’t see mental health services for some 9 months now, which having bipolar isn’t ideal. I’m paying a third of my annual income for college with no reductions despite it being delivered entirely remotely, didn’t see my kid for 2 months because his mum was worried because I was working with the public, and when I am working with the public a big chunk of them just don’t give a fuck. Healthcare workers have a far tougher job than we do by a distance, don’t get me wrong but by virtue of dealing with scared sick people at least they tend to behave in the workplace. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On January 14 2021 10:46 JimmiC wrote: Yes when the vast majority of the people follow the health measures, such as mask wearing, lock downs are not needed. Sadly we fight and argue about the measures, spread gets out of control and then lock downs happen. My dad, who's >60 y/o, got infected back in July. He called health services who told him they'd send a team over to test him and he should stay at home, which he did. No one ever came to test him despite him calling them again and again over the next two weeks. Eventually they said they wouldn't send anyone anymore because it was too late anyway. Fortunately he overcame the disease, which was likely covid-19 but we'll never know for sure. My dad is also annoyingly against the mRNA vaccines. I'm trying to talk sense into him. Why do I mention this? Because we'd expect an "anti-vaxxer" to be more likely to disobey rules, right? Well, no. He follows the rules and even pesters health services when they don't follow up on their promises. If you think the problem is "people not obeying rules" then I have a wake-up call for you. The problem is systemic. The people aren't the problem. People in Taiwan aren't generally any better than people over here. But the system they designed to contain viral outbreaks is just too good, so the human factor isn't that much of a consideration compared to western countries. It's time to stop blaming people for what is clearly a system problem. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On January 14 2021 11:41 JimmiC wrote: Great random anecdotes and then a strange conclusion with no evidence. We have even had people post areas of Vancouver with more immigrants of Asian decent drastically out preforming other areas. Same infrastructure different culture and attitude. It is clear at this point what works. You can make the argument that because of x y z westerns won't wear masks. (And my counter would be how do we combat those) but masks and other health measures work, there is no debate. It is a nonsensical position that they work there and no here because of vague system. And if I'm wrong please explain it with citing because this would be massive news everyone needs to copy because it is un likely this is the only pandemic and we should all be ready. It's not an anecdote, it's a problem within the system. At that time when my dad got infected, many other people in that block also called in for infections. No one came to test them. This is a system issue, as something like that would never happen in Taiwan. They also allow for easy self-quarantine in Taiwan, because food and medicine and everything you need is brought directly to people's doors during their two-week quarantine. They can even make personalized orders. Such a system doesn't exist in my country, but it does in Taiwan. That's on top of all the tracking and smart testing they do. Also, contrary to what you say the vast majority of people are wearing masks here, I guess they've been trained well enough by now. Judging from the few days that I went shopping I'd estimate somewhere between 1/20 to 1/40 of all people that I see here have their mask pulled slightly beneath their nose. A small % is completely against the masks, yet most still wear them correctly even when they don't want to. Any small % is certainly not good and can raise the infection rate, but I don't have information on the Taiwanese situation. What portion of people over there is wearing their mask incorrectly? I don't know. Taiwan has a system, and you really should learn about it because it seems to me that you have no idea how it works. It's highly efficient. As a result, life has continued relatively (!) unchanged and even Taiwan's GDP has not been hurting whatsoever. This is a detailed explanation from March 2020 on laws and regulations in Taiwan in response to covid-19. https://verfassungsblog.de/taiwans-fight-against-covid-19-constitutionalism-laws-and-the-global-pandemic/ | ||
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Lmui
Canada6221 Posts
http://www.bccdc.ca/health-info/diseases-conditions/covid-19/data Richmond/Vancouver are very urban, FS/FN is a mix of urban/suburban areas and are generally lower density than Van/Richmond. (image embedding fails because of https) http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/PublishingImages/health-info/diseases-conditions/covid-19/case-counts-press-statements/covid19_hsda_cumulative_7days_20210107.png They're literally next to each other. Health orders apply province wide, our healthcare system is essentially equal throughout. Richmond is 3-8x better than its neighbours per capita, with literally just a behavioural difference. | ||
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